Pre-Game Talk: Training Camp 2022/23

[lomiller1]

This is over the top IMO -
Good defensive Dmen are usually the guys that allow the good offensive guys the time and space to rack up their points. They remove a burden that is part of the dman's game allowing them to get more involved up ice or pinch more in the ozone.

It's been getting better the last 10 years or so but historically "defensive D-men" were just guys that sucked offensively and spent a lot of time hemmed up in their own zone. (Eg Mark Suart) They don't take pressure off their D-partner, they put more pressure on them because the other team knows there is only one player on the D-pair that can handle the puck effectively.

The more offensive d you have in your lineup, the more of a need for the "Demelo's"

DeMelo is an effective D-man but isn't really a defensive D-man in the classic sense, he makes smart simple plays in every zone that keep the Jets out of their own zone and in the other teams zone. In each of his 2 full seasons with the Jets he's been second in 5v5 xGF/60, so he is an important offensive contributor even if he's not good enough to get a lot of points himself.

You are correct, you need guys like this, but this isn't the type of player Stanley is and at this point it doesn't seem like he ever will be.

 

[Jet]

This is over the top IMO -
Good defensive Dmen are usually the guys that allow the good offensive guys the time and space to rack up their points. They remove a burden that is part of the dman's game allowing them to get more involved up ice or pinch more in the ozone.
The more offensive d you have in your lineup, the more of a need for the "Demelo's" - that fact they are not Norris candidates with their lack of scoring, doesn't mean these guys are not worth their weight in gold.

I feel like this is one of those pendulum swing things. For so long, big, physical, defensive defensemen were touted as the end all and be all of defenders. Then, the discovery of mobile, offensive defensemen as a plus - and how they can actually reduce chances against became en vogue to the detriment of the defensive defenseman.

Defense isn't sexy.

I believe that whether you are an offensive or defensive defenseman, you have to be rounded out enough to not jeopardize one for the other.

Meaning defensive guys can't be so slow and unskilled that they can't retrieve pucks and make solid breakouts, and offensive guys can't defend in their zone.

 

[WolfHouse]

I feel like this is one of those pendulum swing things. For so long, big, physical, defensive defensemen were touted as the end all and be all of defenders. Then, the discovery of mobile, offensive defensemen as a plus - and how they can actually reduce chances against became en vogue to the detriment of the defensive defenseman.

Defense isn't sexy.

I believe that whether you are an offensive or defensive defenseman, you have to be rounded out enough to not jeopardize one for the other.

Meaning defensive guys can't be so slow and unskilled that they can't retrieve pucks and make solid breakouts, and offensive guys can't defend in their zone.

Yeah but what if they have 'sand' and are good in the room?

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

So is the belief right that Kovacevic will be waived?

Doesn’t appear to be playing tonight and didn’t play in the last pre-season game.

 

[Mathil8]

So is the belief right that Kovacevic will be waived?

Doesn’t appear to be playing tonight and didn’t play in the last pre-season game.

Depends if they want to roll 14F7D or 13F8D.

IMO if they roll 13F8D they're likely to send one of samberg/heinola down and keep Kovacevic for the press box.

 

[ennsjd07]

Yeah but what if they have 'sand' and are good in the room?

I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Yeah a bunch of hyperbole bullshit right here. I guess he'd actually have to win the Norris to find out

Why stop there
Conn Smythe

Nobody is picking on him he’s just not that good

 

[surixon]

I feel like this is one of those pendulum swing things. For so long, big, physical, defensive defensemen were touted as the end all and be all of defenders. Then, the discovery of mobile, offensive defensemen as a plus - and how they can actually reduce chances against became en vogue to the detriment of the defensive defenseman.

Defense isn't sexy.

I believe that whether you are an offensive or defensive defenseman, you have to be rounded out enough to not jeopardize one for the other.

Meaning defensive guys can't be so slow and unskilled that they can't retrieve pucks and make solid breakouts, and offensive guys can't defend in their zone.

Yup. There us a reason why DeMelo is effective. He doesn't have any offense from the blue line in but he's good defending and makes quick and smart decisions with the puck in his end.

It's the type of game Samberg needs to play to be an everyday NHL player. Whereas Heinola needs to emulate Morrissey.

 

[Buffdog]

Yeah but what if they have 'sand' and are good in the room?

Body positioning, a good stick and the ability to make a good first pass are starting points for any defenseman regardless of size (think Demelo).

Draft position aside, Stanley and Niku are examples from opposite ends of the spectrum that show that without those things, neither size nor skill matter all that much.

 

[WolfHouse]

I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

Lots of sand in Florida

Body positioning, a good stick and the ability to make a good first pass are starting points for any defenseman regardless of size (think Demelo).

Draft position aside, Stanley and Niku are examples from opposite ends of the spectrum that show that without those things, neither size nor skill matter all that much.

With forwards, you can't teach speed and goal scoring... with D, you can't teach gap control. Frustrating to see Heinola likely sit another year

 

[Brewsky]

Who is quarterbacking the PP1?

Is it Pionk or Morrissey?

 

[Jet]

Lots of sand in Florida


With forwards, you can't teach speed and goal scoring... with D, you can't teach gap control. Frustrating to see Heinola likely sit another year

You can absolutely teach gap control. Some guys just don't have the agility to manage a tight gap.

 

[Gil Fisher]

I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

I like cleaning sand out from in between my toes; very satisfying.

Who is quarterbacking the PP1?

Is it Pionk or Morrissey?

Morrissey

 

[WolfHouse]

You can absolutely teach gap control. Some guys just don't have the agility to manage a tight gap.

That’s my point - Heinola is a natural with gap control - Stanley is not

 

[ennsjd07]

I like cleaning sand out from in between my toes; very satisfying.

I’m not sure you caught what I was getting at, friend… but that’s okay. You also make a valid point.
The sand needs to be cleaned out. Then it can get everywhere again.

 

[Jet]

That’s my point - Heinola is a natural with gap control - Stanley is not

I get what you're saying but you did say you can't teach gap control haha

 

[WolfHouse]

I get what you're saying but you did say you can't teach gap control haha

Guys can improve their speed and offensive instincts… but it takes years and hockey careers are a race against time - Marchand is a good example of ‘learning to score’

Lambert has natural scoring instincts so he has a chance to be a superstar - heinola has natural gap control which can evolve into a top pairing D

 

[surixon]

I'm just glad we are essentially at the end of camp now. Let's get this show on the road. These camps are too long.

 

[Jet]

I think that's a blessing for the Jets with a whole new coaching schema and ground zero player evaluations.

I agree though, I'm ready for real games

 

[Buffdog]

I think that's a blessing for the Jets with a whole new coaching schema and ground zero player evaluations.

I agree though, I'm ready for real games

I'm scared for real games lol

 

[FonRiesen]

Good post, and I agree with lots here, but I think I'd replace "got markedly better" with "was somewhat less bad," since we still saw the hesitation. awkward positioning and sometimes weak / wayward first pass from LS that we saw so much of last season.

In terms of the Stan-bashing -- for me, at least, it's a mix of fatigue and frustration, not so much about a guy who clearly works hard and is doing his best, but about the org's seeming reluctance to focus on performance and fit above all else.

We watched Stanley play some of his worst hockey last year, making costly errors game after game until he was finally pulled for "injury" reasons, seemingly without any reigning in by Maurice and then Lowry. We also saw Ville play better and better until he was sent down by Lowry, citing his "playing good hockey" as the reason.

Of course Stan deserves a shot to make the team, but it should be a fair shot, and I guess I want to trust Bowness when he says that he'll make calls purely on the basis of what's best for the team. If that's the case, then one of these three has to go down, and while it should be Stan based on my viewings, waivers mean it'll be Samberg or Heinola. I think either will be fine in a platoon, but I'm not sure that Stan (or anyone) has won their place or lost it. I think of Stanley as a worse Dillon, or more limited Samberg, given how the org seems to want him to play. Not sure how long they persist -- although I guess Beaulieu provides some historical guidance.

I've always liked the idea of platooning guys on the fringe, giving equal opportunity and rotating through regularly. But I have never seen this actually implemented. Mau talked about it once or twice ("Young guys shouldn't sit in the press box for too long") but it NEVER materialized...

If Bowness actually did it, I'd be impressed.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I believe defensive defensemen continue to improve into their early thirties, because it relies on experience, confidence and repetition.

Sure - small incremental improvements. Not adding up to a lot of development. And even at that, I think it applies to Dmen with some good underlying abilities. Skating, thinking, etc.

 

[10Ducky10]

I've always liked the idea of platooning guys on the fringe, giving equal opportunity and rotating through regularly. But I have never seen this actually implemented. Mau talked about it once or twice ("Young guys shouldn't sit in the press box for too long") but it NEVER materialized...

If Bowness actually did it, I'd be impressed.

Scotty Bowman did it all the time.

 

[Jet]

I'm scared for real games lol

I'm not. I think we've seen some really encouraging foundational changes to the team's playstyle. I know we have a tough schedule to start but if we can come out of it around .500 I think it sets us up nicely for the rest of the season

 

[WaveRaven]

Good teams today run 4 lines period. Its was one of many problems with Pomo.