Pre-Game Talk: Training Camp 2022/23

[surixon]

What is it with you and nicknames? First Snerg and now who's Bead ......... lol

Lol, it should be Brad but my phone's autocorrect comes up with some gems lol

 

[Jetsfan79]

Stanley could win the Norris and there will still be those who consider him a wasted first round pick.

IMO , his trajectory seems to be anywhere from borderline #6/7 to a Darnell Nurse calibre type player. I have always hoped for the latter but I'm not holding my breath at this point.

I think most see a higher ceiling with Heinola which is what probably breaks the tie for many people.

 

[Romang67]

Stanley could win the Norris and there will still be those who consider him a wasted first round pick.

Looking like an NHL player when not paired with DeMelo would be a start. We're not exactly close to a Norris contention at the moment.

 

[DRW204]

Stanley could win the Norris and there will still be those who consider him a wasted first round pick.

Yeah a bunch of hyperbole bullshit right here. I guess he'd actually have to win the Norris to find out

 

[BoneDocUK]

It's really funny that Stanley can make the same mistake as Heinola but Stan gets bashed and Ville gets a pass.

I do get the whole talent level thing that both players performing equally you should go with the more talented player with more potential, but it is so important for the Jets to be successful this year, so I think the org is going to ice the lineup they think will give them that chance.

I also think that though Stanley started very rough, he's gotten markedly better every game.

I also think Heinola has performed very well this tc which is exciting. You do see him bottle up and get timid with the puck and his decision making, especially after a mistake. That's all confidence, and the only way to address that is with playing time. The good news is, Bowness has not seemed to have punished players for mistakes so far.

Snerg I think has been fine, but I think he's playing it very safe, which is a gamble in of itself. You don't necessarily hurt yourself, but you also don't really stand out.

It's a very interesting battle, for sure. These next 2 games are going to be huge because I don't think the org. Is convinced of any plan yet.

Good post, and I agree with lots here, but I think I'd replace "got markedly better" with "was somewhat less bad," since we still saw the hesitation. awkward positioning and sometimes weak / wayward first pass from LS that we saw so much of last season.

In terms of the Stan-bashing -- for me, at least, it's a mix of fatigue and frustration, not so much about a guy who clearly works hard and is doing his best, but about the org's seeming reluctance to focus on performance and fit above all else.

We watched Stanley play some of his worst hockey last year, making costly errors game after game until he was finally pulled for "injury" reasons, seemingly without any reigning in by Maurice and then Lowry. We also saw Ville play better and better until he was sent down by Lowry, citing his "playing good hockey" as the reason.

Of course Stan deserves a shot to make the team, but it should be a fair shot, and I guess I want to trust Bowness when he says that he'll make calls purely on the basis of what's best for the team. If that's the case, then one of these three has to go down, and while it should be Stan based on my viewings, waivers mean it'll be Samberg or Heinola. I think either will be fine in a platoon, but I'm not sure that Stan (or anyone) has won their place or lost it. I think of Stanley as a worse Dillon, or more limited Samberg, given how the org seems to want him to play. Not sure how long they persist -- although I guess Beaulieu provides some historical guidance.

 

[Jack7222]

Stanley could win the Norris and there will still be those who consider him a wasted first round pick.

Yeah, I mean he's been a 6/7/8 tweener with poor results with everyone except one guy. What else does the guy have to do to prove himself?!

 

[surixon]

Good post, and I agree with lots here, but I think I'd replace "got markedly better" with "was somewhat less bad," since we still saw the hesitation. awkward positioning and sometimes weak / wayward first pass from LS that we saw so much of last season.

In terms of the Stan-bashing -- for me, at least, it's a mix of fatigue and frustration, not so much about a guy who clearly works hard and is doing his best, but about the org's seeming reluctance to focus on performance and fit above all else.

We watched Stanley play some of his worst hockey last year, making costly errors game after game until he was finally pulled for "injury" reasons, seemingly without any reigning in by Maurice and then Lowry. We also saw Ville play better and better until he was sent down by Lowry, citing his "playing good hockey" as the reason.

Of course Stan deserves a shot to make the team, but it should be a fair shot, and I guess I want to trust Bowness when he says that he'll make calls purely on the basis of what's best for the team. If that's the case, then one of these three has to go down, and while it should be Stan based on my viewings, waivers mean it'll be Samberg or Heinola. I think either will be fine in a platoon, but I'm not sure that Stan (or anyone) has won their place or lost it. I think of Stanley as a worse Dillon, or more limited Samberg, given how the org seems to want him to play. Not sure how long they persist -- although I guess Beaulieu provides some historical guidance.

Also Logan has three years and two full NHL season of experience on Ville. Given his age and experience I think it is absolutely fair to expect a higher degree of execution from him then a 21 year old who hasn't had the same run of games to iron things out.

Also Heionla's game will be more based on risk reward due to his talent and how Bowness wants to play. We should be expecting more mistakes from a dmen who is actively trying to push offense. Whereas with Stanley there is nowhere near the reward so risky plays have more of a negative consequence.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Also Logan has three years and two full NHL season of experience on Ville. Given his age and experience I think it is absolutely fair to expect a higher degree of execution from him then a 21 year old who hasn't had the same run of games to iron things out.

Also Heionla's game will be more based on risk reward due to his talent and how Bowness wants to play. We should be expecting more mistakes from a dmen who is actively trying to push offense. Whereas with Stanley there is nowhere near the reward so risky plays have more of a negative consequence.

Absolutely. I actually think Dillon's take on playing with Heinola is worth reposting here:

“I love playing with Ville,” Dillon said. “I didn’t really get a chance to play with him last year but just from getting to know him, he’s such a funny young kid. He’s got so much skill and talent and he just wants to get better. Whether it was after practice last year, just messing around, or even now getting the opportunity to play with him, we complement one another. He’s got lots of skill. I want to give him the puck. He can have it all day long.

“I think when it comes to the defending part, we just like to chat a lot out there about what’s going on. We’ve only had a couple of scrimmages and a couple of practices but already you can just feel when there’s chemistry there. Offensively, through the neutral zone, that type of thing, I’m just going to try to make sure he’s got a little bit of a bubble around him and can feel a little comfortable and, in turn, he can have some confidence and do what he does best.”

 

[lomiller1]

IMO , his trajectory seems to be anywhere from borderline #6/7 to a Darnell Nurse calibre type player. I have always hoped for the latter but I'm not holding my breath at this point.

I think most see a higher ceiling with Heinola which is what probably breaks the tie for many people.

I'm not a particular fan of Nurse, but there is no possible way Stanley is ever close to being that good. He's 24, that means he's about as good right now as he is ever going to be, he's only a couple of years away from the point where NHL players start getting worse. At his best, which is essentially right now, Stanley is a liability on the ice you should be looking to replace.

 

[ConnorHrabchak]

With only two games remaining, thoughts on this list of players standing out so far?

4 Jets That Have Stood Out in the 2022-23 Preseason - The Hockey Writers Winnipeg Jets Latest News, Analysis & More

These four players have stood out in a big way for the Winnipeg Jets as their preseason schedule begins to wind down.

thehockeywriters.com

 

[Atoyot]

It's really funny that Stanley can make the same mistake as Heinola but Stan gets bashed and Ville gets a pass.

I do get the whole talent level thing that both players performing equally you should go with the more talented player with more potential, but it is so important for the Jets to be successful this year, so I think the org is going to ice the lineup they think will give them that chance.

I also think that though Stanley started very rough, he's gotten markedly better every game.

I also think Heinola has performed very well this tc which is exciting. You do see him bottle up and get timid with the puck and his decision making, especially after a mistake. That's all confidence, and the only way to address that is with playing time. The good news is, Bowness has not seemed to have punished players for mistakes so far.

Snerg I think has been fine, but I think he's playing it very safe, which is a gamble in of itself. You don't necessarily hurt yourself, but you also don't really stand out.

It's a very interesting battle, for sure. These next 2 games are going to be huge because I don't think the org. Is convinced of any plan yet.

That goes both ways entirely depending on who you're talking to. Many ignore tons of mistakes that Stanley makes and jump out of their seats pointing at Heinola every time he makes any mistake. Remember the give and go with Dubois last year that ended in our net? Was a great game for Heinola otherwise but that one moment is why "he'll never make it in the NHL". People are biased, you and I included, if you think that the bias is uniquely skewed against Stanley, you're likely biased for him. Nothing wrong with that, I'm biased for Heinola and am prone to seeing the exact opposite of what you see while reading the exact same boards. It's a good thing to be aware of and even then I struggle to catch it a lot in myself.

Quick question, I've seen it pop up a few times, who the eff is Snerg?

 

[lomiller1]

With only two games remaining, thoughts on this list of players standing out so far?

4 Jets That Have Stood Out in the 2022-23 Preseason - The Hockey Writers Winnipeg Jets Latest News, Analysis & More

These four players have stood out in a big way for the Winnipeg Jets as their preseason schedule begins to wind down.

thehockeywriters.com

Perfetti is good at hockey, he doesn't look like a rookie competing for a spot he looks like a young star player ready to take over as the teams best player.

Lambert has shown he's got the talent to be an elite NHL player, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. He needs a lot of work before he's ready to play everyday in the NHL. Still, it's fair to say he stood out in a good way.

After that

Gustafsson has stood out? IMO he's been almost invisible. Put Torgersson there instead, he's not going to be NHL ready for another year or two but I really liked what he showed in preseason.

Maenalanen earned himself a spot, but he looks like a 4th liner. I don't think that's the same thing as standing out. Put Heinola there instead. Heinola still has a lot to work on but he really showed the strengths of his game.

 

[Jet]

Good post, and I agree with lots here, but I think I'd replace "got markedly better" with "was somewhat less bad," since we still saw the hesitation. awkward positioning and sometimes weak / wayward first pass from LS that we saw so much of last season.

In terms of the Stan-bashing -- for me, at least, it's a mix of fatigue and frustration, not so much about a guy who clearly works hard and is doing his best, but about the org's seeming reluctance to focus on performance and fit above all else.

We watched Stanley play some of his worst hockey last year, making costly errors game after game until he was finally pulled for "injury" reasons, seemingly without any reigning in by Maurice and then Lowry. We also saw Ville play better and better until he was sent down by Lowry, citing his "playing good hockey" as the reason.

Of course Stan deserves a shot to make the team, but it should be a fair shot, and I guess I want to trust Bowness when he says that he'll make calls purely on the basis of what's best for the team. If that's the case, then one of these three has to go down, and while it should be Stan based on my viewings, waivers mean it'll be Samberg or Heinola. I think either will be fine in a platoon, but I'm not sure that Stan (or anyone) has won their place or lost it. I think of Stanley as a worse Dillon, or more limited Samberg, given how the org seems to want him to play. Not sure how long they persist -- although I guess Beaulieu provides some historical guidance.

The ideal would be one of Heinola or Samberg landing the last spot (Ville is the front runner) and Stan being the PB guy. We could run with 8 D if we don't want to expose Kovy. I just don't think the org. Is ready to give up on the Stanley investment just yet. That may well change if Stanley struggles into the season.

 

[Jet]

That goes both ways entirely depending on who you're talking to. Many ignore tons of mistakes that Stanley makes and jump out of their seats pointing at Heinola every time he makes any mistake. Remember the give and go with Dubois last year that ended in our net? Was a great game for Heinola otherwise but that one moment is why "he'll never make it in the NHL". People are biased, you and I included, if you think that the bias is uniquely skewed against Stanley, you're likely biased for him. Nothing wrong with that, I'm biased for Heinola and am prone to seeing the exact opposite of what you see while reading the exact same boards. It's a good thing to be aware of and even then I struggle to catch it a lot in myself.

Quick question, I've seen it pop up a few times, who the eff is Snerg?

You're right, everyone is biased. I am trying hard to be conscious of it, I find myself oftentimes speaking up for players who are relentlessly attacked in this forum, and I'd say Stanley falls in that category.

To me, there's a difference between criticism and bashing, and not all that criticize are bashing.

I try to cheer for and support all of our players, because I know if they succeed that is only good for the team I love.

 

[Aggie204]

That goes both ways entirely depending on who you're talking to. Many ignore tons of mistakes that Stanley makes and jump out of their seats pointing at Heinola every time he makes any mistake. Remember the give and go with Dubois last year that ended in our net? Was a great game for Heinola otherwise but that one moment is why "he'll never make it in the NHL". People are biased, you and I included, if you think that the bias is uniquely skewed against Stanley, you're likely biased for him. Nothing wrong with that, I'm biased for Heinola and am prone to seeing the exact opposite of what you see while reading the exact same boards. It's a good thing to be aware of and even then I struggle to catch it a lot in myself.

Quick question, I've seen it pop up a few times, who the eff is Snerg?

Snerg is Samberg

Also that turn over you talked about was just a clusterf-ck play. Heinola was handling a waist high pass, and Harkins did not cover Ville when he activated. It was more of a systems failure in my eyes.

also im biased to Ville, so theres that lol

 

[LowLefty]

Snerg is Samberg

Also that turn over you talked about was just a clusterf-ck play. Heinola was handling a waist high pass, and Harkins did not cover Ville when he activated. It was more of a systems failure in my eyes.

also im biased to Ville, so theres that lol

We're all biased to some extent with these players - and that's what causes the constant reposting of the same opinions - there's been a ton of that today.
Doesn't really matter much - the coaches will do what they feel is best - and then the roasting will shift to the coaching

 

[Jet]

I'm not a particular fan of Nurse, but there is no possible way Stanley is ever close to being that good. He's 24, that means he's about as good right now as he is ever going to be, he's only a couple of years away from the point where NHL players start getting worse. At his best, which is essentially right now, Stanley is a liability on the ice you should be looking to replace.

I think that is a generalization that doesn't really play out in real life. I think that player trajectory and age is dependent on position and role. You can learn to be better defensively, and it is far less skill dependent. Experience and reps have a huge impact on further improvement.

 

[lomiller1]

The ideal would be one of Heinola or Samberg landing the last spot (Ville is the front runner) and Stan being the PB guy. We could run with 8 D if we don't want to expose Kovy. I just don't think the org. Is ready to give up on the Stanley investment just yet. That may well change if Stanley struggles into the season.

Unfortunately for Ville I think he needs to beat out Pionk or Schmidt. Not only that he probably needs to do it in a convincing manor and I'm not sure he's done that. While he's been better than Stanley or Samberg I expect he'll be the only one of the three sent down

 

[WolfHouse]

Unfortunately for Ville I think he needs to beat out Pionk or Schmidt. Not only that he probably needs to do it in a convincing manor and I'm not sure he's done that. While he's been better than Stanley or Samberg I expect he'll be the only one of the three sent down

Not sure why they wouldn't run
JoMo-DeMelo
Schmidt-Pionk
Dillon-Ville

that being said, I think he gets sent down just because he's two years younger than Samberg and Stanley. Stan will get another change simply because we traded two picks for him.

 

[lomiller1]

I think that is a generalization that doesn't really play out in real life. I think that player trajectory and age is dependent on position and role.

Position wise D-men peak at around 25, pretty much the same as forwards. In terms of role I don't really agree, I think "role" just a convenient excuse for not being good enough. IMO when a player doesn't produce points it's not because "that isn't his role" it's because he's not good enough.

You can learn to be better defensively, and it is far less skill dependent. Experience and reps have a huge impact on further improvement.

Again I disagree mainly because there is a big difference between being "good defensively" and being effective defensively. What you want is the latter and that requires making plays all over the ice, a player who is always defending is a liability regardless of how well they defend.

Experience and reps have a huge impact on further improvement.

Indeed, which is why you want to start getting you talented players significant NHL reps when they are 20 or 21. The longer you wait the more time you loose and the lower their ceiling becomes. This is exactly why you don't want to play a 24 year old 6/7 D-man over a talented 21 year old even if the latter still has holes in their game.

 

[scelaton]

The ideal would be one of Heinola or Samberg landing the last spot (Ville is the front runner) and Stan being the PB guy. We could run with 8 D if we don't want to expose Kovy. I just don't think the org. Is ready to give up on the Stanley investment just yet. That may well change if Stanley struggles into the season.

They have certainly invested a lot in Stanley, but now is the time to reap dividends, by trading him. There are probably still a few GMs out there enamoured with his size who would give us valuable picks or prospects, especially if one of their D goes down with an injury.

We have a glut of young LD and there is still a 'market inefficiency' in Stanley's value. I suspect by the end of this season his value will decrease to match his actual worth, so the time to act is upon us.

 

[Atoyot]

Snerg is Samberg

Also that turn over you talked about was just a clusterf-ck play. Heinola was handling a waist high pass, and Harkins did not cover Ville when he activated. It was more of a systems failure in my eyes.

also im biased to Ville, so theres that lol

Yep, I was quick to defend him on that play. By my eyes he passed off to Dubois, came in for the give and go, managed to draw two players to him and in doing so opened up many other options. He did it hoping for the return pass but with how the other team reacted to it it wasn't the right play to return the puck to him and that's unfortunately the biggest knock on Dubois, his ability to read and react to situations, so he went with the first idea and tried to force it back. I've said it a lot but by my eyes the biggest difference between year one Dubois and year two Dubois was his willingness to slow down a play and pick a pick a play that will work versus trying to force a play that might work. Unfortunately when he's forced to make a quick decision it can result in what happened there. I understand the heat Heinola got for not playing it safe late in a tight game but Dubois really couldn't have played it any worse with the waist high pass being the icing on the cake.

Again yes I am also biased for Heinola

 

[Jet]

Position wise D-men peak at around 25, pretty much the same as forwards. In terms of role I don't really agree, I think "role" just a convenient excuse for not being good enough. IMO when a player doesn't produce points it's not because "that isn't his role" it's because he's not good enough.



Again I disagree mainly because there is a big difference between being "good defensively" and being effective defensively. What you want is the latter and that requires making plays all over the ice, a player who is always defending is a liability regardless of how well they defend.



Indeed, which is why you want to start getting you talented players significant NHL reps when they are 20 or 21. The longer you wait the more time you loose and the lower their ceiling becomes. This is exactly why you don't want to play a 24 year old 6/7 D-man over a talented 21 year old even if the latter still has holes in their game.

You make some good points, but I don't agree with some of them, mainly due to my own development as a defensive defenseman and some anecdotal examples of pro players.

They have certainly invested a lot in Stanley, but now is the time to reap dividends, by trading him. There are probably still a few GMs out there enamoured with his size who would give us valuable picks or prospects, especially if one of their D goes down with an injury.

We have a glut of young LD and there is still a 'market inefficiency' in Stanley's value. I suspect by the end of this season his value will decrease to match his actual worth, so the time to act is upon us.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

I'm definitely not against trading Stanley, it would solve a lot of problems

 

[DannyGallivan]

With only two games remaining, thoughts on this list of players standing out so far?

4 Jets That Have Stood Out in the 2022-23 Preseason - The Hockey Writers Winnipeg Jets Latest News, Analysis & More

These four players have stood out in a big way for the Winnipeg Jets as their preseason schedule begins to wind down.

thehockeywriters.com

The first three, yes (especially Perfetti). But Gus? He must have a style that really doesn't stand out because I never really notice him.

 

[LowLefty]

Position wise D-men peak at around 25, pretty much the same as forwards. In terms of role I don't really agree, I think "role" just a convenient excuse for not being good enough. IMO when a player doesn't produce points it's not because "that isn't his role" it's because he's not good enough.

This is over the top IMO -
Good defensive Dmen are usually the guys that allow the good offensive guys the time and space to rack up their points. They remove a burden that is part of the dman's game allowing them to get more involved up ice or pinch more in the ozone.
The more offensive d you have in your lineup, the more of a need for the "Demelo's" - that fact they are not Norris candidates with their lack of scoring, doesn't mean these guys are not worth their weight in gold.