Trades & Free Agency Thread - Too Soon Off-Season Edition

[Dreakmur]

Rather have a 1.65m PKer than a 1.5m "tough guy" vet (simmonds)

Id rather have neither…

 

[showtime8]

I never saw that physicality to be honest. Seemed like a scrub to me and I don't get the love in for him. Same with those who talk about bringing Simmonds back. His play was a major disappointment as far as I was concerned. He did nothing to answer what the Habs were doing physically and thats what he was brought here to do. But that is kinda the problem isnt it? Players with physical reputations come to the leafs and seemingly abandon that part of their game which renders them kinda useless. The team philosophy seems to be a non contact don't get involved in the tough stuff approach which can work during a long regular season though I still dont love it but in the playoffs you may as well just stay home and save yourself the trouble if that's the attitude going in. More and more its becoming apparent that this is a top down approach and personally I hate it. Non inspiring.

It could definitely be a philosophy approach as to why certain players don't fit in to the system. Like I felt both Simmonds and Jumbo struggled down the stretch because the Leafs require a bigger skating element to the team in terms of cycling back, breaking out, etc. And neither of them are amazing skaters anymore.

With guys like Clifford or even Matt Martin when he was here, the Leafs didn't get the full value out of them because of the style that they play. And they look so far out of place because they are really the only guys that play that certain role. If the whole team is full of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Engvall, Mikheyev and Kerfoot and none of them play the physical role, the other players stand out a lot more.

In terms of philosophy, I think the Leafs should focus on loading up a 4th line of grinders. I brought up Clifford because I thought he would be inexpensive to acquire. I also brought up Nathan Bastian before because I think he can be a cheaper 4th line filler. Similar to what the Golden Knights have in their 4th line - Kolesar, Carrier & Reaves. Don't need to put up points, but make the opposing teams defense think twice about going to retrieve the puck. Instead, the Leafs focus on really a line without an identity.

 

[showtime8]

He was pretty useless here and we can do a lot better than him.

If we wanted another Clifford, we should just bring back Simmonds for 1 mill. He had a similar contribution but at least had some flashes of being useful on a PP (at one point) as well.

Ideally, we get better players than both.

The thing with Simmonds is, the Leafs were hoping to put him on the 3rd line and add some sort of shutdown line with an added element of physicality. And I have no problem with what Simmonds brought to the table.

With Clifford he's strictly a 4th liner. You don't need to pretend to find a role that he won't fit. He's your 4th line winger.

 

[Rielly4]

Dont get me wrong, I like Goodrow but I almost feel like guys like Coleman and Goodrow might get overpaid because of the exposure they got in Tampa and the success Tampa had with those types of players. Maybe we should find our own Goodrow and Coleman like Tampa did.

 

[showtime8]

No thanks. Barely think he's worth league min, and not giving up an asset.

Not sure how much of an asset he is at this point. He had a decent playoff series, but he was on waivers at the beginning of the year and health scratched a couple times down the stretch.

Maybe you don't give up Engvall in this trade. Maybe it's a D rated prospect like Hollowell or Rasanen.

 

[Knies iT]

Dont get me wrong, I like Goodrow but I almost feel like guys like Coleman and Goodrow might get overpaid because of the exposure they got in Tampa and the success Tampa had with those types of players. Maybe we should find our own Goodrow and Coleman like Tampa did.

They absolutely will.

That’s why I mentioned a guy like Bunting will get more than EvolvingWild projects (1.1m), same goes for Goodrow. Those models don’t account for bidding wars or overzealous GMs who inflate the market price. Rarely does a UFA get paid exactly what they’re worth in a vacuum.

 

[McSnypsky]

Dont get me wrong, I like Goodrow but I almost feel like guys like Coleman and Goodrow might get overpaid because of the exposure they got in Tampa and the success Tampa had with those types of players. Maybe we should find our own Goodrow and Coleman like Tampa did.

If they lose to the Isles the narrative will be, well we need those types of players and play the trap, who cares if we barely make the playoffs, or basically whoever wins the cup it will be how can the Leafs become like them...

 

[Amadeus]

I still can't believe our 1st rounder went for Nick freakin Foligno. Didn't work out at all.

Can't be handing out 1st rounders for players like that.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The thing with Simmonds is, the Leafs were hoping to put him on the 3rd line and add some sort of shutdown line with an added element of physicality. And I have no problem with what Simmonds brought to the table.

With Clifford he's strictly a 4th liner. You don't need to pretend to find a role that he won't fit. He's your 4th line winger.

Ok but most 4th line wingers are also special teams or can provide some depth scoring/shutdown ability. Something besides hitting people are being the team goon, because a lot of people think that having guys like Clifford in the lineup will protect your top players but it doesn't. They will still run those guys and then when you get guys like Clifford out to fight, they just ignore you or they send out a 4th liner of their own to fight him, which does nothing.

Clifford was acquired by Dubas because he thought he could be a good possession player like he was in LA. He was caved in here and was just a liability.

 

[Jozay]

 

[613Leafer]

I still can't believe our 1st rounder went for Nick freakin Foligno. Didn't work out at all.

Can't be handing out 1st rounders for players like that.

Yea, I was shocked. The guy hasn't topped 35 points in 4 seasons, and given his style of play which puts extra miles on the body, is clearly well past his prime.

Hall cost less, and is head and shoulders, and then some, above Foligno as a player. Palmieri is a better player too, and NYI got both Palmieri and Zajac for less than what we gave up.

He'll be 34 next season. Even if he wants to come back, I don't even know if I'd risk 2M on him unless it was only a 1 year deal. Last offseason for example, guys like Fast, Namestiknov, Janmark, etc could have been signed in that range and are similar calibre players still in their primes.

 

[pspot]

Hamilton is probably inbetween Piet at 7x8.8 and krug 7x6.5....closer to Krug but still

 

[613Leafer]

We'd have to move Marner and Rielly to really make it work longterm with the cap, but Hamilton would be the best defenceman we've had in 30+ years if we could get him.

If you can walk away with him + the trade returns from Marner/Rielly (ideally a couple of top 6 forwards + picks/prospects of sufficient quality for it to make sense) + some extra capspace to spend on the depth parts of the roster, that's a pretty ideal offseason IMO.

 

[ToneDog]

Hamilton is probably inbetween Piet at 7x8.8 and krug 7x6.5....closer to Krug but still

Split the difference, 7x7.5 with bonuses or stay away. If Rielly was a decent PP QB, I'd say give him the money but he is part of the reason our PP sucks.

 

[ToneDog]

We'd have to move Marner and Rielly to really make it work longterm with the cap, but Hamilton would be the best defenceman we've had in 30+ years if we could get him.

If you can walk away with him + the trade returns from Marner/Rielly (ideally a couple of top 6 forwards + picks/prospects of sufficient quality for it to make sense) + some extra capspace to spend on the depth parts of the roster, that's a pretty ideal offseason IMO.

Rielly would be redundant and should be moved. You could keep Marner but ideally you should try to rid yourself of that ugly cap hit and upgrade your forward depth with quality not quantity.

 

[pspot]

Split the difference, 7x7.5 with bonuses or stay away. If Rielly was a decent PP QB, I'd say give him the money but he is part of the reason our PP sucks.

I was actually thinking you sign Hamilton move reilly. they have solid LHD depth, brodie, muzzin, sandin, dermott, hutton?
I'd roll
Brodie/Hamilton
Sandin/Lil
Muzzin/Holl
Hutton/Bogo

 

[ShaneFalco]

We'd have to move Marner and Rielly to really make it work longterm with the cap, but Hamilton would be the best defenceman we've had in 30+ years if we could get him.

If you can walk away with him + the trade returns from Marner/Rielly (ideally a couple of top 6 forwards + picks/prospects of sufficient quality for it to make sense) + some extra capspace to spend on the depth parts of the roster, that's a pretty ideal offseason IMO.

Sadly Kyle won't trade Marner and probably re-signs Rielly

 

[ToneDog]

Sadly Kyle won't trade Marner and probably re-signs Rielly

Rolling with the same cast is all but sealing his fate next year. I think he has to make a significant trade and the least significant trade is Rielly. We need a serious PP QB and Rielly is not it, especially with Marner on it. Unless Sandin is, there won't be room for Rielly. Move him now and sign Mike Reilly if you want to go cheap rather than go big on Hamilton.

 

[showtime8]

Ok but most 4th line wingers are also special teams or can provide some depth scoring/shutdown ability. Something besides hitting people are being the team goon, because a lot of people think that having guys like Clifford in the lineup will protect your top players but it doesn't. They will still run those guys and then when you get guys like Clifford out to fight, they just ignore you or they send out a 4th liner of their own to fight him, which does nothing.

Clifford was acquired by Dubas because he thought he could be a good possession player like he was in LA. He was caved in here and was just a liability.

The Lightning's 4th line in Game 1 vs the Isles was - Ross Colton, Tyler Johnson & Pat Maroon. In the 2021 playoffs, Colton has 11 seconds of PK time, Tyler Johnson has 11 seconds of PK time and Maroon has 9 seconds of PK time. To contrast that, their top PK guy is Anthony Cirelli at 31:27. When it comes to the Powerplay, the only guy that has any decent powerplay time is Tyler Johnson with 9:47 (top forward Brayden Point - 40:02).

The Golden Knights 4th line of Keegan Kolesar - Ryan Reaves & Will Carrier have a total of 1 minute and 7 seconds on the PK in the playoffs and 28 seconds of power play minutes. That's total in the 13 games that they've played.

The Montreal Canadiens 4th line of Armia, Staal and Perry have a total of 23:39 of PK time in the playoffs. Armia is the only one that has PK time from that line. On the powerplay, the Habs actually have all 3 of them playing on it. Perry has the most minutes on the team while on the powerplay at 31:45.

The Islanders 4th line of Matt Martin, Casey Cizikas & Cal Clutterbuck get a lot of usage on the penalty kill. Cizikas and Clutterbuck have the most PK minutes on the team.

Of this list, I would say that the Leafs are more likely to follow the Tampa Bay model than any other team. The Knights essentially just have an energy 4th line that are 3 grinders and are contributing next to no offensive output. The Canadiens have a gem in Corey Perry the way he's played, but I would say that the likeliness of a 4th liner leading the team in ice-time happens less than 1% of the time. The Islanders distribute their ice-time throughout the line-up very well, but their system makes it a lot easier to do so.

I guess you can make a case for having a 4th line of just grinders because it works for a Stanley Cup favourite in Vegas. Or you could make a case to have some effective guys like the Islanders and have your 4th liners do the bulk of your PK. It's more about line construction than anything.The Islanders 4th line works because they all have the same mentality. Get it deep and apply pressure.

I guess my point is, I would love to have Clifford back on the team, but it needs to be in the right 4th line role or else you waste the other players around you as well

 

[WTFMAN99]

The Lightning's 4th line in Game 1 vs the Isles was - Ross Colton, Tyler Johnson & Pat Maroon. In the 2021 playoffs, Colton has 11 seconds of PK time, Tyler Johnson has 11 seconds of PK time and Maroon has 9 seconds of PK time. To contrast that, their top PK guy is Anthony Cirelli at 31:27. When it comes to the Powerplay, the only guy that has any decent powerplay time is Tyler Johnson with 9:47 (top forward Brayden Point - 40:02).

The Golden Knights 4th line of Keegan Kolesar - Ryan Reaves & Will Carrier have a total of 1 minute and 7 seconds on the PK in the playoffs and 28 seconds of power play minutes. That's total in the 13 games that they've played.

The Montreal Canadiens 4th line of Armia, Staal and Perry have a total of 23:39 of PK time in the playoffs. Armia is the only one that has PK time from that line. On the powerplay, the Habs actually have all 3 of them playing on it. Perry has the most minutes on the team while on the powerplay at 31:45.

The Islanders 4th line of Matt Martin, Casey Cizikas & Cal Clutterbuck get a lot of usage on the penalty kill. Cizikas and Clutterbuck have the most PK minutes on the team.

Of this list, I would say that the Leafs are more likely to follow the Tampa Bay model than any other team. The Knights essentially just have an energy 4th line that are 3 grinders and are contributing next to no offensive output. The Canadiens have a gem in Corey Perry the way he's played, but I would say that the likeliness of a 4th liner leading the team in ice-time happens less than 1% of the time. The Islanders distribute their ice-time throughout the line-up very well, but their system makes it a lot easier to do so.

I guess you can make a case for having a 4th line of just grinders because it works for a Stanley Cup favourite in Vegas. Or you could make a case to have some effective guys like the Islanders and have your 4th liners do the bulk of your PK. It's more about line construction than anything.The Islanders 4th line works because they all have the same mentality. Get it deep and apply pressure.

I guess my point is, I would love to have Clifford back on the team, but it needs to be in the right 4th line role or else you waste the other players around you as well

Clifford was a massive disappointment in STL this year, other teams took runs but he rarely answered the bell, others did.

JT, Matthews do not PK

Marner and Hyman do but there's a chance neither return.

It's a little unclear who else is in the top 6 next year...we seem like a team that needs to find the PK guys in the bottom 6 because our best players don't really do it....or do it well because our PK % the last few years kinda sucks.

 

[mydnyte]

Split the difference, 7x7.5 with bonuses or stay away. If Rielly was a decent PP QB, I'd say give him the money but he is part of the reason our PP sucks.

with the flat cap, just about no decent team can afford his salary.
he may be forced to go someplace less desirable, or get creative or sign a cheaper short term deal until the flat cap goes away.
the Devil's could snatch him up at his expected salary and he'd be on a team on the rise (hopefully)

 

[ToneDog]

The Lightning's 4th line in Game 1 vs the Isles was - Ross Colton, Tyler Johnson & Pat Maroon. In the 2021 playoffs, Colton has 11 seconds of PK time, Tyler Johnson has 11 seconds of PK time and Maroon has 9 seconds of PK time. To contrast that, their top PK guy is Anthony Cirelli at 31:27. When it comes to the Powerplay, the only guy that has any decent powerplay time is Tyler Johnson with 9:47 (top forward Brayden Point - 40:02).

The Golden Knights 4th line of Keegan Kolesar - Ryan Reaves & Will Carrier have a total of 1 minute and 7 seconds on the PK in the playoffs and 28 seconds of power play minutes. That's total in the 13 games that they've played.

The Montreal Canadiens 4th line of Armia, Staal and Perry have a total of 23:39 of PK time in the playoffs. Armia is the only one that has PK time from that line. On the powerplay, the Habs actually have all 3 of them playing on it. Perry has the most minutes on the team while on the powerplay at 31:45.

The Islanders 4th line of Matt Martin, Casey Cizikas & Cal Clutterbuck get a lot of usage on the penalty kill. Cizikas and Clutterbuck have the most PK minutes on the team.

Of this list, I would say that the Leafs are more likely to follow the Tampa Bay model than any other team. The Knights essentially just have an energy 4th line that are 3 grinders and are contributing next to no offensive output. The Canadiens have a gem in Corey Perry the way he's played, but I would say that the likeliness of a 4th liner leading the team in ice-time happens less than 1% of the time. The Islanders distribute their ice-time throughout the line-up very well, but their system makes it a lot easier to do so.

I guess you can make a case for having a 4th line of just grinders because it works for a Stanley Cup favourite in Vegas. Or you could make a case to have some effective guys like the Islanders and have your 4th liners do the bulk of your PK. It's more about line construction than anything.The Islanders 4th line works because they all have the same mentality. Get it deep and apply pressure.

I guess my point is, I would love to have Clifford back on the team, but it needs to be in the right 4th line role or else you waste the other players around you as well

Isles 4th line comes in at around $9m. Our 4th line comes in at $2+m. You get what you pay for, unfortunately for us not the case for M & M in the playoffs.

 

[showtime8]

Clifford was a massive disappointment in STL this year, other teams took runs but he rarely answered the bell, others did.

JT, Matthews do not PK

Marner and Hyman do but there's a chance neither return.

It's a little unclear who else is in the top 6 next year...we seem like a team that needs to find the PK guys in the bottom 6 because our best players don't really do it....or do it well because our PK % the last few years kinda sucks.

According to hockeyfights.com, Clifford had 4 this year. The league leader was Brady Tkachuk with 7. I think he answered the bell enough in a league where it's not common to fight. But I don't necessarily need him to fight. Provide energy, hit and don't get scored on.

The 3rd line will need to have the biggest turnover to improve the team.

 

[WTFMAN99]

According to hockeyfights.com, Clifford had 4 this year. The league leader was Brady Tkachuk with 7. I think he answered the bell enough in a league where it's not common to fight. But I don't necessarily need him to fight. Provide energy, hit and don't get scored on.

The 3rd line will need to have the biggest turnover to improve the team.

I'd probably hope we're able to land Goodrow.

 

[Legion34]

smart. We should do the same with Hyman.

try to get a pick or 2 back