Trades & Free Agency Thread: Off-season Edition

[Americanadian]

One. Fan opinions are ridiculous and uniformed and have zero bearing on the market. There is no evidence ever that those players were “overpaid”. Benn won the art Ross and signed for 13% of the cap. Igor is openly asking for 14%

One-time art ross winner, twice over a point per game, winger becoming the 4th highest paid player in the league is a discount?

Cap percentage matters. Not a single player in any no state tax team ever has signed for over 13%. That would be a huge bargain

I just walked you through the resume of every player you mentioned. None of those signings were seen as discounts when they were signed outside of Stamkos and Reinhart. 2 players signing at a discount doesn't excuse years of inept Leafs management.

The idea that players set “internal caps” that affect their families futures and all the super loyal nice people end up in no state tax markets is silly

Of all the players mentioned - only Reinhart appears to have taken a discount to fall into an internal cap. Kucherov, Point, Vasy, Tkachuk were realistically paid appropriately given what they had accomplished at the time of signing.

 

[Dreakmur]

It's such a complicated issue that it will be hard to come out on top and I have zero confidence in Treliving to make a good call here. Marner walking is by far the worse option to me as well. It's such a weird thing to do.

The Leafs should be trying to extend Marner every day this summer to remove any sort of doubt, pressure and media circus this season. It will be painful. Every losing streak, every bad game, every good game... it will be about Marner. Every day. Every time.

So we just accept wasting Matthews’ career because we can’t make a tough decision on Marner?

 

[SprDaVE]

So we just accept wasting Matthews’ career because we can’t make a tough decision on Marner?

Trade him then. Do something, anything. They can't even make a tough decision right now...

They are wasting Matthews' career by letting all-star assets walk for nothing if that happens.

 

[ToneDog]

If he won’t accept a trade, letting him walk is the best option. He cannot be resigned, even at what he thinks is a discount.

My fear is that they can't stomach letting him walk for free (see Hyman) and so they will overpay him. This organization has not won a cup in 57 years. They have a long history of making foolish moves.

Trade him then. Do something, anything. They can't even make a tough decision right now...

They are wasting Matthews' career by letting all-star assets walk for nothing if that happens.

No team is stepping up with a decent offer so they are afraid to lose the trade. They'd rather overpay. They have time if they decide to go down that path.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Of course Boqvist signs with Florida, where he will replace Montour and become an absolute stud. Ugh.

 

[SprDaVE]

No team is stepping up with a decent offer so they are afraid to lose the trade. They'd rather overpay. They have time if they decide to go down that path.

Says who? From all accounts, Leafs have not remotely tried to trade Marner or asked to waive his NMC, or a list of teams, or poked around the league. It's all been fan-fic rumours.

Everyone thinks Marner is rejecting all these trade offers but the Leafs are just as much sitting on their hands with this. They seem content with just letting this circus ride out and hope it works out.

And if they didn't like all the trade offers out there... then re-sign the guy. He's clearly seen as important. As if letting him walk for nothing is better than a few dimes? Or maybe the GM needs to work harder? I don't know but something has to give and doing the bare minimum is not at all the expectations that we should have. Treliving should be fired yesterday if that's the case.

 

[Legion34]

I don't think the Leafs can actually put pressure on him in a way that is going to be helpful. That's the problem. Do you have an example of what putting the pressure would look like? And how would that reflect to other players throughout the league?

Third line. Second pp unit. Good luck getting a 12 million dollar deal.

If he won’t accept a trade, letting him walk is the best option. He cannot be resigned, even at what he thinks is a discount.

He absolutely can be re signed. Letting him walk for nothing is the worst possible idea. I can’t believe tre

One-time art ross winner, twice over a point per game, winger becoming the 4th highest paid player in the league is a discount?

I just walked you through the resume of every player you mentioned. None of those signings were seen as discounts when they were signed outside of Stamkos and Reinhart. 2 players signing at a discount doesn't excuse years of inept Leafs management.

Of all the players mentioned - only Reinhart appears to have taken a discount to fall into an internal cap. Kucherov, Point, Vasy, Tkachuk were realistically paid appropriately given what they had accomplished at the time of signing.

You didn’t walk Anyone through anything. You just decided that players are worth what you decided they are worth.

So in your mind to be clear. There is no single player that has played in a no state tax marek that was worth the same amount as a

Perry. Tavares. Price. Kopitar. Toews. Kane. Doughty. Karlson. Panarin. Price. Tavares?

There was no leader that could set an example on any of those teams to only take 11-12%.

Stamkos is such a great leader they let him walk twice?
It’s just silly

 

[ToneDog]

Can't we just let JT walk? He's old as shit.

Marner will be a consistent 90+ point player. You can't have him leave without getting paid in assets for it. You're headed towards the cellar if you do.

I anticipate if the Leafs let him walk for nothing there is a good chance they miss the playoffs that season.

Rather that than sign him. There is a number that I would resign him at but it is nowhere near what they are asking. You cannot win with this guy making top dollar. If all 3 amigos were willing to play for less, we could surround them with better players. Two of the 3 chose not to the second go around, so the third now needs to be gone.

 

[ACC1224]

So we just accept wasting Matthews’ career because we can’t make a tough decision on Marner?

Perhaps the tough decision made is to retain him?

 

[ToneDog]

Says who? From all accounts, Leafs have not remotely tried to trade Marner or asked to waive his NMC, or a list of teams, or poked around the league. It's all been fan-fic rumours.

Everyone thinks Marner is rejecting all these trade offers but the Leafs are just as much sitting on their hands with this. They seem content with just letting this circus ride out and hope it works out.

We can only go by what the insiders have said. I'm guessing, at least Nashville and Vegas have inquired. Also from what the insiders have said, Leafs won't ask him to waive until they get an acceptable offer.

At this point I think he is playing out the season. There have also been rumours that they want to extend him so all we can do is wait and discuss.

 

[-DeMo-]

I mean it's basically 100% chance Tre has talk trade of Marner to other teams, weather there serious talks or not is different. other teams would be calling Tre if they had interest they wouldn't wait for Tre to call them. so it's 100% Tre has had discussions about moving Marner

 

[JEI]

Third line. Second pp unit. Good luck getting a 12 million dollar deal.

Can't see that happening. The Leafs are in the business of winning too.

I think the best case scenario regarding a trade is that a team approaches Tre with something Tre is interested in, and then presents it to Marner with the idea that the team acquiring him wants to sign him to 8years. Now what Tre is interested in vs. what the fans want as a return could be 2 totally different things. Right now Marner is in Guentzel return territory unless they can get an agreement for a long-term deal in place prior.

The only real threat that Tre could maybe push is that they aren't going to discuss a contract until after the season is done if at all. Allow Marner to show his worth in the post-season - they know what he can do in the regular season. Tre has to be, at least in face value, willing to walk away from Marner..it's going to be a game of chicken. That'll either push Marner to open up his options to move to get that extra 8th year or he'll be happy to walk to free agency and get a 7year deal. Depends on how much that last year is valued.

Or it's all moot and Tre actually wants to re-sign him to an 8-year-deal.

 

[ToneDog]

Third line. Second pp unit. Good luck getting a 12 million dollar deal.






He absolutely can be re signed. Letting him walk for nothing is the worst possible idea. I can’t believe tre


You didn’t walk Anyone through anything. You just decided that players are worth what you decided they are worth.

So in your mind to be clear. There is no single player that has played in a no state tax marek that was worth the same amount as a

Perry. Tavares. Price. Kopitar. Toews. Kane. Doughty. Karlson. Panarin. Price. Tavares?

There was no leader that could set an example on any of those teams to only take 11-12%.

Stamkos is such a great leader they let him walk twice?
It’s just silly

Overpaying him would be the worst option. I would let him walk and use the money to sign the best UFA available on July 1. That might even be Mitch on a 4-6 year deal (you only lose the ability to sign him for 8 years on July first and I don't want to go 8 years anyway).

 

[Stephen]

So we just accept wasting Matthews’ career because we can’t make a tough decision on Marner?

Matthews is wasting his own career. The Leafs have iced flawed but credible supporting casts around him to do something, anything in the playoffs and it’s his own failure plus the Big 4 and Morgan that there’s been one series victory. Let’s take a deep breath and realize we aren’t hostage to Matthews short contracts. If this era gets scrapped it gets scrapped.

 

[Americanadian]

So in your mind to be clear. There is no single player that has played in a no state tax marek that was worth the same amount as a

Perry. Tavares. Price. Kopitar. Toews. Kane. Doughty. Karlson. Panarin.

Perry, Kopitar, Kane, Doughty were all cup winners with the teams they signed with and overpaid as such. Unlike any of the examples you used in Florida/TB/Nashville/Dallas.

Karlsson was better than the only defenseman you listed (Josi).

Panarin and Tavares actually went to UFA unlike any of the players you listed.

Price signed for less on his 3rd contract than Vasilevskiy did. We'll see what happens with Vasilevskiy's 4th contract. Price also won a hart trophy before he re-signed.

Stamkos is such a great leader they let him walk twice?

If they were desperate to sign him they wouldn't have got him on such a discount. That is the basics of a negotiation.

 

[SprDaVE]

We can only go by what the insiders have said. I'm guessing, at least Nashville and Vegas have inquired. Also from what the insiders have said, Leafs won't ask him to waive until they get an acceptable offer.

At this point I think he is playing out the season. There have also been rumours that they want to extend him so all we can do is wait and discuss.

Inquiring is one thing, but action is another. I haven't seen any real information that leads me to believe there's been actual work being done here. We don't get the full picture so who knows but we'd have a lot more info if there was real action being taken.

They will play out the season and surely it won't be a complete distraction at all. And then we can blame Marner and not Treliving for some reason.

 

[ToneDog]

Inquiring is one thing, but action is another. I haven't seen any real information that leads me to believe there's been actual work being done here. We don't get the full picture so who knows but we'd have a lot more info if there was real action being taken.

They will play out the season and surely it won't be a complete distraction at all. And then we can blame Marner and not Treliving for some reason.

Said it before, they cannot afford to start the season hot. or it will be a shit show. The best thing to keep the noise down, is to win. That will buy both parties time.

 

[Legion34]

I don't think the Leafs can actually put pressure on him in a way that is going to be helpful. That's the problem. Do you have an example of what putting the pressure would look like? And how would that reflect to other players throughout the league?

Third line. Second pp unit. Good luck getting a 12 million dollar deal.

Knies. Matthews. Domi.
Robb. JT. Nylander
Mcmann. Holmber marner.

If he won’t accept a trade, letting him walk is the best option. He cannot be resigned, even at what he thinks is a discount.

He absolutely can be re signed. Letting him walk for nothing is the worst possible idea. I can’t believe tre

One-time art ross winner, twice over a point per game, winger becoming the 4th highest paid player in the league is a discount?

I just walked you through the resume of every player you mentioned. None of those signings were seen as discounts when they were signed outside of Stamkos and Reinhart. 2 players signing at a discount doesn't excuse years of inept Leafs management.

Of all the players mentioned - only Reinhart appears to have taken a discount to fall into an internal cap. Kucherov, Point, Vasy, Tkachuk were realistically paid appropriately given what they had accomplished at the time of signing.

You didn’t walk Anyone through anything. You just decided that

Perry, Kopitar, Kane, Doughty were all cup winners with the teams they signed with and overpaid as such. Unlike any of the examples you used in Florida/TB/Nashville/Dallas.

Karlsson was better than the only defenseman you listed (Josi).

Panarin and Tavares actually went to UFA unlike any of the players you listed.

Price signed for less on his 3rd contract than Vasilevskiy did. We'll see what happens with Vasilevskiy's 4th contract. Price also won a hart trophy before he re-signed.

If they were desperate to sign him they wouldn't have got him on such a discount. That is the basics of a negotiation.

Price signed for 14% of the cap.
Thornton was a 14% player. Never won the cup for them.

Do you have any evidence ever that cup winners get paid more ? Now the argument
Guentzel got more than reinhart.

Just so I understand what you are saying.
Across multiple teams and multiple competitive windows and years and weather.

independently teams all just decide that players in high tax markets all just end up around 14%

And low tax markets all just end up at 11-12%
And the take home numbers there just end up the same.

Even though players agents gms. And the managers who sign the contracts say it.


But that’s all just a coincidence. Ok

 

[Americanadian]

Price signed for 14% of the cap.

On his 4th contract.

Thornton was a 14% player. Never won the cup for them.

Why are you looking at one 3 year deal that signed 2 years after the cap was implemented. He also finished in the top 3 of league scoring in 3/4 seasons leading up to that deal including a hart trophy. I'm not sure if it's a stretch to say he was the best player in the league at that time.

Do you have any evidence ever that cup winners get paid more ?

Doughty, Toews, Kane, Kopitar.

Now the argument
Guentzel got more than reinhart.

Same tax rate here. I'm not sure what the point is here.

Just so I understand what you are saying.
Across multiple teams and multiple competitive windows and years and weather.

independently teams all just decide that players in high tax markets all just end up around 14%

And low tax markets all just end up at 11-12%
And the take home numbers there just end up the same.

But that’s all just a coincidence. Ok

What I'm saying is that it's overblown. Fans use tax rates as an excuse so they can blame something that is outside of team control so they don't have to admit to themselves that the team is ineptly run and the players are greedy.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Of course Boqvist signs with Florida, where he will replace Montour and become an absolute stud. Ugh.

That’s a nice shrewd move.. Florida has done well with players like this.

Wish the Leafs had taken a chance.

 

[Legion34]

On his 4th contract.

Why are you looking at one 3 year deal that signed 2 years after the cap was implemented. He also finished in the top 3 of league scoring in 3/4 seasons leading up to that deal including a hart trophy. I'm not sure if it's a stretch to say he was the best player in the league at that time.

Doughty, Toews, Kane, Kopitar.

Same tax rate here. I'm not sure what the point is here.

What I'm saying is that it's overblown. Fans use tax rates as an excuse so they can blame something that is outside of team control so they don't have to admit to themselves that the team is ineptly run and the players are greedy.

Why are all the high tax teams players greedy? How did all these star players end up being greedy in high tax markets?

Why did reinhart not get more because he won them (literally scored the game 7 winning goal) the cup?
Doughty. Kopitar. Perry. Price got more. Why didn’t he?


Was oel not worth more? He won the cup right?

Reinhart signs for 8.6. Aho (45% taxes) signed for 9.75.
Elias p (53%?) got 11.6
Crazy how that works out.

It’s not overblown. It’s pure math

 

[Americanadian]

Why are all the high tax teams players greedy? How did all these star players end up being greedy in high tax markets?

I'm not saying all players in high tax markets are greedy. This is a specific criticism for the Leafs players. Coincidentally the only market that parades around income tax as an excuse for poor roster construction.

Why did reinhart not get more because he won them (literally scored the game 7 winning goal) the cup?

Reinhart definitely took a discount. I said as much earlier. Florida also held his feet to the fire and he signed 10 minutes before the deadline. Florida simply won the negotiation because the player prefered the fit over an extra couple million dollars he would never use.

Was oel not worth more? He won the cup right?

Is 15 minutes/night worth 3.5M to you?

Reinhart signs for 8.6. Aho (45% taxes) signed for 9.75.
Elias p (53%?) got 11.6
Crazy how that works out.

It’s not overblown. It’s pure math

I am not sure why you're taking CapFriendly as gospel when it's already been proven wrong in this thread. @WillNy29 appears to be much more knowledgeable than myself, and you, on this topic. They provided examples of how players can avoid paying 54% of their income to tax.

 

[Dreakmur]

Perhaps the tough decision made is to retain him?

So the tough decision is to continue to believe this core can get it done? It’s tough to believe, that’s for sure!

 

[Peasy]

That's not really an option though. You can't let a hall of fame player walk for nothing in his prime.

The answer to the problem has to be different than that or the men in charge should be let go shortly after.

And what if the people making the decision to make sure he's around this year are the people that own the team? What then?

 

[Legion34]

I'm not saying all players in high tax markets are greedy. This is a specific criticism for the Leafs players. Coincidentally the only market that parades around income tax as an excuse for poor roster construction.

Reinhart definitely took a discount. I said as much earlier. Florida also held his feet to the fire and he signed 10 minutes before the deadline. Florida simply won the negotiation because the player prefered the fit over an extra couple million dollars he would never use.

Is 15 minutes/night worth 3.5M to you?

I am not sure why you're taking CapFriendly as gospel when it's already been proven wrong in this thread. @WillNy29 appears to be much more knowledgeable than myself, and you, on this topic. They provided examples of how players can avoid paying 54% of their income to tax.

Cap friendly wasn’t proven wrong. It was literally just bought by a billion dollar organization and has been used by multiple teams.

The idea that a random internet poster knows more is laughable.

Agents. GMs players accountants openly state and acknowledge how big of an issue it is.

Take 2 minutes to google.


You making up your own market valuations doesn’t change the reality

Friendly tax climates give top NHL teams a recruiting edge - InvestmentNews

For many past champions, the absence of a state income tax is a valuable bargaining chip when it comes to luring free agents.

www.investmentnews.com