Trades and UFA’s - Trade Deadline Edition

[horner]

I wonder if Domi has had the thought “why am I watching from the bench on my 7th team, is it something about how I play?”. That’s of course a joke because how is he going to self reflect when he visibly has a room temperature IQ out there.

Play better

 

[Leaffan1991]

Hopefully next year these two spots will be filled by decent guys.

Rielly ____
____ Lilly
McCabe Timmins

 

[Dragao6]

Id like to see us picking up that rhd to play with rielly and move brodie to the left

Rielly-xxx
Brodie-kling
McCabe-lilly

 

[SprDaVE]

Id like to see us picking up that rhd to play with rielly and move brodie to the left

Rielly-xxx
Brodie-kling
McCabe-lilly

That's really easier said than done.

I think the Leafs just need to put Liljegren with Rielly and Brodie with McCabe, which leaves you with Klingberg with Giordano. I think this would be so much better than what we have now. The top 2 pairs can mix and match, but the bottom pair needs to be Giordano and Klingberg with softer 5 on 5 minutes. I like Klingberg so far but I think McCabe needs someone else to help him out, and last game we got that in the 3rd.

I am not sure there's an easy fix to the pairings that can be rectified in October. It will be either performance related or a call-up to fix it up.

 

[Fogelhund]

That's really easier said than done.

I think the Leafs just need to put Liljegren with Rielly and Brodie with McCabe, which leaves you with Klingberg with Giordano. I think this would be so much better than what we have now. The top 2 pairs can mix and match, but the bottom pair needs to be Giordano and Klingberg with softer 5 on 5 minutes. I like Klingberg so far but I think McCabe needs someone else to help him out, and last game we got that in the 3rd.

I am not sure there's an easy fix to the pairings that can rectified in October. It will be either performance related or a call-up to fix it up.

I think we are having the same conversation in two spots

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Lilly
Gio Klingberg

Is probably the way that I'd do things.

Defensive Pairs - Natural Stat Trick

Rielly Brodie have been excellent, and I don't really want to break them up. In very limited time, McCabe Lilly and Gio/Klingberg look promising... run with them a bit more, and see if there is more to it.

 

[SprDaVE]

I think we are having the same conversation in two spots

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Lilly
Gio Klingberg

Is probably the way that I'd do things.

Defensive Pairs - Natural Stat Trick

Rielly Brodie have been excellent, and I don't really want to break them up. In very limited time, McCabe Lilly and Gio/Klingberg look promising... run with them a bit more, and see if there is more to it.

Yep pretty much.

I also think the Leafs are much worst defensively from a forward stand point, so the blame being completely on a few defenders is a lazy narrative and not quite accurate.

I know people hated Engvall and Kerfoot, but their contributions defensively compared to say Domi and Reaves are not even close to the same. The Leafs have a few really good 2-way forwards on the Marlies right now that would help a lot, we'll see what happens over the next 5-6 games.

 

[Fogelhund]

Yep pretty much.

I also think the Leafs are much worst defensively from a forward stand point, so the blame being completely on a few defenders is a lazy narrative and not quite accurate.

I know people hated Engvall and Kerfoot, but their contributions defensively compared to say Domi and Reaves are not even close to the same.

It's going to take some time to adjust for sure to the new bodies, and you are correct about the defensive awareness. Keefe's teams have pretty decent defensive results overall, hopefully they find a way to become more cohesive. One thing I've noticed so far, that results in poor defensive play, is we have been very sloppy with the puck so far. Passing isn't as good as we'd normally expect from this group, and it's resulted in the puck headed the other way, and our transition from offense to D, has often lead to people out of position, and people getting caught trying to make up for that. We've got Knies, Minten, Domi, Bertuzzi, Reaves, Gregor... all new guys to the team, trying to learn the systems and each other. That's going to take some time.

 

[Americanadian]

There might be a deal to be made around Liljegren+Jarnkrok for Dellandrea+Hakanapaa. Leafs save 1.1M in cap space and gain a 3C solution and a different style defenseman for the bottom pair or potentially a partner for Rielly (Hakanpaa is comparable to Schenn/Lyubushkin).

I've been very averse to trading Liljegren but Keefe continues to not trust him in the playoffs.

 

[The Management]

It's still early, but it'll be interesting to see what unfolds in Seattle. They've scored three goals in four games and are off to a bit of a rough start in a highly competitive Pacific Division.

Can't imagine they want to take a step back after making the playoffs last year or seeing a fellow expansion rival win the Stanley Cup.

 

[SprDaVE]

There might be a deal to be made around Liljegren+Jarnkrok for Dellandrea+Hakanapaa. Leafs save 1.1M in cap space and gain a 3C solution and a different style defenseman for the bottom pair or potentially a partner for Rielly (Hakanpaa is comparable to Schenn/Lyubushkin).

I've been very averse to trading Liljegren but Keefe continues to not trust him in the playoffs.

That seems awful. A downgrade both upfront and defensively, and Hakanpaa is a pending UFA so the asset management factor is also bad. Dellandra is good and probably better than Minten for sure but he's not better than Jarnkrok right now.

Just play Liljegren with Rielly and save yourself the humiliation of giving him up for a downgrade and essentially nothing. If the Leafs can't trust him and don't like where his development is going, then they should aim so much higher than a 31 year old bottom pairing defenseman that is a pending UFA in a trade.

 

[Fogelhund]

There might be a deal to be made around Liljegren+Jarnkrok for Dellandrea+Hakanapaa. Leafs save 1.1M in cap space and gain a 3C solution and a different style defenseman for the bottom pair or potentially a partner for Rielly (Hakanpaa is comparable to Schenn/Lyubushkin).

I've been very averse to trading Liljegren but Keefe continues to not trust him in the playoffs.

Thank you for being consistent. Consistent in proposing some of the worse trade ideas in the forum. Just regularly terrible.

 

[Americanadian]

That seems awful. A downgrade both upfront and defensively, and Hakanpaa is a pending UFA so the asset management factor is also bad. Dellandra is good and probably better than Minten for sure but he's not better than Jarnkrok right now.

Just play Liljegren with Rielly and save yourself the humiliation of giving him up for a downgrade and essentially nothing.

I am usually all for asset management and acquiring long-term players but I don't mind the idea of moving off Jarnkrok for a pending UFA and gaining an additional 2M heading into this off-season. As far as Dellandrea goes - he is worse than Jarnkrok right now, I don't disagree. He also fills a need for the Leafs (RS C) that they do not have in the organization. He should also be relatively cheap to re-sign given his counting stats. FWIW he had more TOI/GP in the playoff for Dallas than Domi did.

As far as Liljegren with Rielly, I don't disagree that it should be tried but Keefe has taken Liljegren out of the lineup in the playoffs the last 2 years for players of Hakanpaa's ilk. Hakanpaa played 20 minutes/game for Dallas in the playoff last year, Liljegren played 15 minutes per game and played 5 of Toronto's 11 games. The acquisition of a younger roster player offsets (for me) the loss of the asset.

Thank you for being consistent. Consistent in proposing some of the worse trade ideas in the forum. Just regularly terrible.

Really good contribution here. You're really bringing a lot to this discussion forum.

 

[SprDaVE]

I am usually all for asset management and acquiring long-term players but I don't mind the idea of moving off Jarnkrok for a pending UFA and gaining an additional 2M heading into this off-season. As far as Dellandrea goes - he is worse than Jarnkrok right now, I don't disagree. He also fills a need for the Leafs (RS C) that they do not have in the organization. He should also be relatively cheap to re-sign given his counting stats. FWIW he had more TOI/GP in the playoff for Dallas than Domi did.

As far as Liljegren with Rielly, I don't disagree that it should be tried but Keefe has taken Liljegren out of the lineup in the playoffs the last 2 years for players of Hakanpaa's ilk. Hakanpaa played 20 minutes/game for Dallas in the playoff last year, Liljegren played 15 minutes per game and played 5 of Toronto's 11 games. The acquisition of a younger roster player offsets (for me) the loss of the asset.

I edited my response to add that you need to aim so much higher if your goal is to upgrade some form of attribute in the lineup. If Liljegren is running out of time and the Leafs want to make some form of upgrade there, you really need to aim higher than a 31 year old pending UFA bottom pairing defenseman. His value shouldn't given away. It's bad for a lot of reasons here and serve's no purpose than really giving up a youngish cost controlled defenseman showing plenty of good promise.

Jarnkrok has very good contract value. He's been good for the Leafs. You won't find 20 goal scorers for 2M cap hits that can PK and play anywhere.

 

[Knies iT]

Hopefully next year these two spots will be filled by decent guys.

Rielly ____
____ Lilly
McCabe Timmins

Thats how I see it, with Niemela/Timmins rotating.

We’re lacking a Muzzin caliber matchup D. That’s the reason I’ve been clamouring for a LD to hold down the 2nd pair with Liljegren long-term. You can likely find a cheap RD option (ie Peeke) to pair with Rielly ala Schenn.

McCabe is a #5. A LD bumps him down.

This D as is won’t get it done.

 

[Fogelhund]

I am usually all for asset management and acquiring long-term players but I don't mind the idea of moving off Jarnkrok for a pending UFA and gaining an additional 2M heading into this off-season. As far as Dellandrea goes - he is worse than Jarnkrok right now, I don't disagree. He also fills a need for the Leafs (RS C) that they do not have in the organization. He should also be relatively cheap to re-sign given his counting stats. FWIW he had more TOI/GP in the playoff for Dallas than Domi did.

As far as Liljegren with Rielly, I don't disagree that it should be tried but Keefe has taken Liljegren out of the lineup in the playoffs the last 2 years for players of Hakanpaa's ilk. Hakanpaa played 20 minutes/game for Dallas in the playoff last year, Liljegren played 15 minutes per game and played 5 of Toronto's 11 games. The acquisition of a younger roster player offsets (for me) the loss of the asset.


Really good contribution here. You're really bringing a lot to this discussion forum.

It isn't that Keefe doesn't trust Liljegren, it's that he doesn't trust him YET, in the playoffs. Young player, and we needed to bring in the physicality of Schenn. Liljegren will have his time and place. If Keefe didn't believe in him, he would have been gone already.... like Sandin.

I appreciate that this is VERY hard to comprehend, but Hakanpaa is Dallas's 5th/6th D in 5v5 TOI. You don't obtain that, hoping to find a lightning in the bottle partner for Rielly. I like Hakanpaa, and would have loved to have him on the Leafs at some point... but he is the very definition of all defense, no offense. We had problems moving the puck out of the zone in the playoffs last year... Hakanpaa makes that worse... while it's a strength of Liljegren's... (when he isn't fanning on pucks). We are actually compounding our problems with adding Hakanpaa, at this juncture. Hakanpaa is the guy you'd pair with a Liljegren, not a swap out for (ignoring handedness)

If we do a deal, it has to legitimately improve us, by pushing people down the lineup, not just bringing physicality to the bottom pair. If Hakanpaa is your guy, you sign him as a UFA next year.

The other usually ignored issue in this... what does this do for Dallas that they are looking to address? You've also completely ignored, that they don't have the cap room for such a trade. Teams don't make trades, to help out the Leafs, and they don't do trades that puts them over the cap. This very basic tenets are repeatedly ignored when you make proposals.

 

[SprDaVE]

 

[Americanadian]

I edited my response to add that you need to aim so much higher if your goal is to upgrade some form of attribute in the lineup. If Liljegren is running out of time and the Leafs want to make some form of upgrade there, you really need to aim higher than a 31 year old pending UFA bottom pairing defenseman. His value shouldn't given away. It's bad for a lot of reasons here and serve's no purpose than really giving up a youngish cost controlled defenseman showing plenty of good promise.

Jarnkrok has very good contract value. He's been good for the Leafs. You won't find 20 goal scorers for 2M cap hits that can PK and play anywhere.

In no way do I view this proposal as Liljegren+ for Hakanpaa+. I view this as Liljegren+ for Dellandrea+. As I mentioned, Hakanpaa played >20 minutes/game for Dallas in the playoffs and was 4th among their defenders in TOI. He is a bottom pairing defender stylistically but he hasn't been playing bottom pairing minutes for a good Dallas team.

I also agree that Jarnkrok is good value for what he provides but he's scored 20 goals once, he's as much of a 20 goal scorer as Kapanen and Johnsson. He also has 5 goals in 86 playoff games. He has a long history of his game not translating to the playoffs and I think that makes him replaceable.

If the Leafs enter this off-season with that 2.1M additional cap space plus whatever cap space they save between Dellandrea's next contract and Liljegren's next contract (let's say 400k) that gives them 2.5M additional space to pickup a defenseman in UFA which is probably the difference between signing Pesce or Hanifin and signing Demelo or Zadorov.

 

[Fogelhund]

Reactionary comment on my part... but after four games, Seattle's leading forward scorer has ONE point. Garland also only has one point, but they really could use some offense there.

 

[Americanadian]

It isn't that Keefe doesn't trust Liljegren, it's that he doesn't trust him YET, in the playoffs. Young player, and we needed to bring in the physicality of Schenn. Liljegren will have his time and place. If Keefe didn't believe in him, he would have been gone already.... like Sandin.

He is 24 now. It's obvious that Keefe doesn't trust him yet but it's not obvious to me why he doesn't trust him yet. I can't confidently say that Keefe wants Liljegren in his playoff lineup yet. If he didn't shoot right I think he would have been shipped out prior to Sandin.

I appreciate that this is VERY hard to comprehend, but Hakanpaa is Dallas's 5th/6th D in 5v5 TOI. You don't obtain that, hoping to find a lightning in the bottle partner for Rielly. I like Hakanpaa, and would have loved to have him on the Leafs at some point... but he is the very definition of all defense, no offense. We had problems moving the puck out of the zone in the playoffs last year... Hakanpaa makes that worse... while it's a strength of Liljegren's... (when he isn't fanning on pucks). We are actually compounding our problems with adding Hakanpaa, at this juncture. Hakanpaa is the guy you'd pair with a Liljegren, not a swap out for (ignoring handedness)

I'm looking at what the Leafs have done historically (Schenn, Lyubushkin) and adding the same version type of player but better than both of them (judging off GAR, GSVA).

If we do a deal, it has to legitimately improve us, by pushing people down the lineup, not just bringing physicality to the bottom pair. If Hakanpaa is your guy, you sign him as a UFA next year.

I fully believe the Leafs will add 2 defenseman this year (and remove 2 from the lineup). This trade adds one and adds 1.1M in cap space to help facilitate another trade. There is also enough history to suggest Hakanpaa would play on Toronto's top pair.

The other usually ignored issue in this... what does this do for Dallas that they are looking to address? You've also completely ignored, that they don't have the cap room for such a trade. Teams don't make trades, to help out the Leafs, and they don't do trades that puts them over the cap. This very basic tenets are repeatedly ignored when you make proposals.

Dallas would need to send down Joel Hanley to facilitate this trade. This would give them a long-term solution at RD which is their weakest position organizationally (they have 1RD under team control next year). They would subtract a young RS C which they have in abundance (Johnston, Bourque, Stankoven). For this year they get a slight downgrade from Hakanpaa to Liljegren while upgrading from Dellandrea to Jarnkrok.

I wouldn't make a proposal without doing a full audit of the other team(s) in the proposal. Not my thing.

 

[Americanadian]

I appreciate that this is VERY hard to comprehend, but Hakanpaa is Dallas's 5th/6th D in 5v5 TOI.

Why are we only looking at 5v5 TOI and not full TOI for players like Hakanpaa who lead their team in SH TOI when the Leafs just lost their best penalty killing defenseman and didn't replace him? This is the 2nd time in two days you have completely dismissed a players SH TOI.

 

[Fogelhund]

Why are we only looking at 5v5 TOI and not full TOI for players like Hakanpaa who lead their team in SH TOI when the Leafs just lost their best penalty killing defenseman and didn't replace him? This is the 2nd time in two days you have completely dismissed a players SH TOI.

5v5 TOI, defines where that player plays, in the lineup. That they might have a PP or SH speciality, does not change who they are.

A player who has to be sheltered with the fewest 5v5 minutes, but is great at either that PP or SH.. isn't suddenly a #3 or #4, because they get bonus minutes.

In normal situations, if a player gets the fewest minutes of available time... they are the last option that the coach goes for. They are the last player, the coach wants on the ice, in those conditions. There is a reason for that, it's because the coach believes that their play, is the least likely to have success while on the ice.

 

[Americanadian]

5v5 TOI, defines where that player plays, in the lineup. That they might have a PP or SH speciality, does not change who they are.

A player who has to be sheltered with the fewest 5v5 minutes, but is great at either that PP or SH.. isn't suddenly a #3 or #4, because they get bonus minutes.

In normal situations, if a player gets the fewest minutes of available time... they are the last option that the coach goes for. They are the last player, the coach wants on the ice, in those conditions. There is a reason for that, it's because the coach believes that their play, is the least likely to have success while on the ice.

So if Hakanpaa is 4th in 5v5 TOI for Dallas in the playoffs does that make him their 4th option?

 

[Fogelhund]

So if Hakanpaa is 4th in 5v5 TOI for Dallas in the playoffs does that make him their 4th option?

Yes, indeed it did. Which can happen when players who normally play ahead of you are injured, or are coming off injury.

 

[Americanadian]

Yes, indeed it did. Which can happen when players who normally play ahead of you are injured, or are coming off injury.

And last year in the playoffs was that the case?

 

[Fogelhund]

And last year in the playoffs was that the case?

View attachment 754330

Yes.