Trades and UFA’s - Trade Deadline Edition

[Legion34]

There is, if you bothered to look, instead of making incorrect assumptions and claims about our young players/prospects/pool.
I recommend starting off by reading through our prospect thread. Some well-informed people in there.

Prospects take time to go from draft pick to contributing NHLer on a competitive team. Your expectations are way off.

We have actual contributors, and you write them off as nothing.

There is nothing incorrect about saying that we have 26 total goals and a career high of 58 total combined games from forwards in 2018-22 drafts.

We have 2 contributors under 24 from those players and a bunch of healthy scratches.

I have been following these posters since 2006. And they have been excited about Ian white jay Harrison Brenden bell carlo coliacovo, suglobov, korshov, bracco, dermott, Sandin, Lilly abruzzezi Hanson among hundreds of others who didn’t pan out at all or are bottom lineup players

There is no blue chip prospect in our pool. Cowan may be. We have a bunch of maybes. No gaurantees.

You are just saying things you want to be true. There is no facts behind what you are saying. Just hope.

I hope too. But there is no factual basis behind hope.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There is nothing incorrect about saying that we have 26 total goals and a career high of 58 total combined games from 2018-22 drafts.

It may be technically correct, but it's also a very misleading and inaccurate way to represent our drafting proficiency over that time.
Prospects take time to go from draft pick to contributing NHLer on a competitive team. That doesn't mean you've drafted poorly.
Fact is, we've drafted well since 2018, and our pool is healthy. We're getting quite a bit out of it right now, as prospects start to graduate, and we have a lot more to look forward to.

 

[Fogelhund]

This is starting to look like a very strong move by Dubas.
Now obviously the selection of Cowan makes it look this way and things could have turned out very different if we picked a dud.
Not sure if we sold high on Sandin but definitely looks like he still has the same shortcomings that he did here and needs very soft deployment.
On a championship team, bottom pairing guy that can bring some puck moving ability, has some physicality and can run a PP but also is very suspect defensively and doesn't have great footspeed.

Meanwhile, Timmins has 6 points, to Sandin's 11... while Timmins has only played in 15 games. Timmins can play with some physicality, has been foot speed. To be fair, Timmins is just learning to play defensively, despite his age... I think we made the right move.

 

[Fogelhund]

There is nothing incorrect about saying that we have 26 total goals and a career high of 58 total combined games from forwards in 2018-22 drafts.

We have 2 contributors under 24 from those players and a bunch of healthy scratches.

I have been following these posters since 2006. And they have been excited about Ian white jay Harrison Brenden bell carlo coliacovo, suglobov, korshov, bracco, dermott, Sandin, Lilly abruzzezi Hanson among hundreds of others who didn’t pan out at all or are bottom lineup players

There is no blue chip prospect in our pool. Cowan may be. We have a bunch of maybes. No gaurantees.

You are just saying things you want to be true. There is no facts behind what you are saying. Just hope.

I hope too. But there is no factual basis behind hope.

This team doesn't necessarily need Blue Chip prospects, at least at Forward. Nor is there the expectation that they will be blue chip. We need cheap complimentary forwards, and we have quite a bit of that. Any expectation that we would have more, is completely misguided.

Outside of the 2023 draft, there are ZERO first round picks, used for forward from 2018-2022, except for Amirov of course, and if you really take exception to that... I mean...

Given our draft spots, I'd say we've done tremendously well, and have quite a few guys likely to become NHL players.

You list a bunch of guys, mostly D, when D is a position is known for hit and miss.

But Dermott's played over 300 NHL games. That's a pretty successful pick second round pick.

Ian White is a 2002 pick, so if you are complaining about him, you are really reaching way back there... but he played over 500 NHL games, which for a 6th round pick, is a pretty amazing result.

Coliacovo is a different story, he likely would have been a good D man, if it weren't for being incredibly injury prone.

You really think ANYONE thought Christian Hanson was a blue chip player? I mean seriously? It looked for a minute or two, that he might be a contributor... an ok depth guy...

There absolutely are a number of guys in the system, who have middle six forward upside... and when you have the type of talent we have up front, to add middle six on an ELC is excellent...

 

[ULF_55]

It may be technically correct, but it's also a very misleading and inaccurate way to represent our drafting proficiency over that time.
Prospects take time to go from draft pick to contributing NHLer on a competitive team. That doesn't mean you've drafted poorly.
Fact is, we've drafted well since 2018, and our pool is healthy. We're getting quite a bit out of it right now, as prospects start to graduate, and we have a lot more to look forward to.

One thing that hurts the prospect pool is trading for win-now players, which most contenders do.

And dealing picks for playoff runs, again part of the win-now scenario.

Is it worse or better than other teams ... all one has to do is go to Hockeydb and compare team by team results.

Montreal Canadiens Draft History at hockeydb.com

Ottawa Senators Draft History at hockeydb.com

Detroit Red Wings Draft History at hockeydb.com

Vancouver Canucks Draft History at hockeydb.com

Colorado Avalanche Draft History at hockeydb.com

...
Check out how many players have more than a season of NHL hockey since 2018, and how many outside the 1st. round have a season of NHL hockey.

There just need to be patience.

Just looking at one team is meaningless. You have to compare against all and see where you're at.

 

[Legion34]

This team doesn't necessarily need Blue Chip prospects, at least at Forward. Nor is there the expectation that they will be blue chip. We need cheap complimentary forwards, and we have quite a bit of that. Any expectation that we would have more, is completely misguided.

Outside of the 2023 draft, there are ZERO first round picks, used for forward from 2018-2022, except for Amirov of course, and if you really take exception to that... I mean...

Given our draft spots, I'd say we've done tremendously well, and have quite a few guys likely to become NHL players.

You list a bunch of guys, mostly D, when D is a position is known for hit and miss.

But Dermott's played over 300 NHL games. That's a pretty successful pick second round pick.

Ian White is a 2002 pick, so if you are complaining about him, you are really reaching way back there... but he played over 500 NHL games, which for a 6th round pick, is a pretty amazing result.

Coliacovo is a different story, he likely would have been a good D man, if it weren't for being incredibly injury prone.

You really think ANYONE thought Christian Hanson was a blue chip player? I mean seriously? It looked for a minute or two, that he might be a contributor... an ok depth guy...

There absolutely are a number of guys in the system, who have middle six forward upside... and when you have the type of talent we have up front, to add middle six on an ELC is excellent...

The whole point of this is that we gave up plenty of capital with one first round win and expiring contracts to show for it. The fact that we have zero first round picks is a choice.

Every year we hear about 210 picks with about 100 having upside the vast majority never reach.

We haven’t had a real consistent contributor. Heck knies is the only one who hasn’t been scratched repeatedly.

The best performing players were traded (I don’t see any as a huge loss).

We may all hope for some players to become major contributors. We have for years.

None have panned out to be even a stajan/poni player.

 

[horner]

The whole point of this is that we gave up plenty of capital with one first round win and expiring contracts to show for it.

Every year we hear about 210 picks with about 100 having upside the vast majority never reach.

We haven’t had a real consistent contributor. Heck knies is the only one who hasn’t been scratched repeatedly.

The best performing players were traded (I don’t see any as a huge loss).

I've always said you build your team in the summer.
At the TDL you pick up a couple of players for insurance for a long playoff run.
We traded for 7 players last yr doesn't give enough time to jell .
Iam glad they are finally giving these young players Holmberg Robertson McCann Benoit a chance to play I want to see what they have in the playof
Next year Cowen , Minten and maybe Grebyonkin.
We need some consistency year to year .
Pick up another Benoit at the deadline .

Then build the defence in the summer.

We had a chance to sign Hyman and keep McCann and choose not to dumb move

 

[MarMarSab3]

Meanwhile, Timmins has 6 points, to Sandin's 11... while Timmins has only played in 15 games. Timmins can play with some physicality, has been foot speed. To be fair, Timmins is just learning to play defensively, despite his age... I think we made the right move.

Timmins is a #7 at best, doesnt have the foot speed nor the defensive awareness to amount to much, his IQ is relatively low.

 

[Fogelhund]

The whole point of this is that we gave up plenty of capital with one first round win and expiring contracts to show for it. The fact that we have zero first round picks is a choice.

Every year we hear about 210 picks with about 100 having upside the vast majority never reach.

We haven’t had a real consistent contributor. Heck knies is the only one who hasn’t been scratched repeatedly.

The best performing players were traded (I don’t see any as a huge loss).

We may all hope for some players to become major contributors. We have for years.

None have panned out to be even a stajan/poni player.

Except your timeline expectations are completely out to lunch.

Durzi, Sandin, Engvall, Grundstrom, Dermott, Verhaeghe, Johnsson, Brown, Leivo all ended up with over 100 games.

Leivo, nothing special, but wasn't really a full time NHL guy until 6-7 years post draft.
Brown was four years
Johnsson was four years
Verhaeghe was six years
Engvall was five years
Dermott, an early second rounder was two years.
Grundstrom was four years.

So most of our better picks, that turned into NHL players of over 100 games, took between 4-6 years to make it to the show, and you are looking at a period that is 5 years ago to present, and somehow expecting they would have made it... that's just not how it works..

 

[ULF_55]

Timmins is a #7 at best, doesnt have the foot speed nor the defensive awareness to amount to much, his IQ is relatively low.

Yeah, he's being played as a #7/8.

I wouldn't have a problem if they gave Lagesson opportunities ... he seems to be a bit of a dirtbag.

Protect him like you do the other 7's.

 

[Fogelhund]

Timmins is a #7 at best, doesnt have the foot speed nor the defensive awareness to amount to much, his IQ is relatively low.

It really is kind of crazy that he has a team high GF% when he's on the ice, one of the best GA/60 of the team when he's on the ice, the team high expected GF% when he's on the ice and a team high Corsi when he's on the ice.

I wonder how we should explain the difference between his actual results, and what your eye test perceives?

Meanwhile, we repeatedly have angry posters talking about the players that we gave up on too early, and here is a guy with great results, we want to give up on already...

 

[TMLAM34]

Definitely wouldn’t mind seeing more of Benoit - Timmins to see what we have in that pair.

 

[Fogelhund]

""

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[Dekes For Days]

One thing that hurts the prospect pool is trading for win-now players, which most contenders do.
And dealing picks for playoff runs, again part of the win-now scenario.
Is it worse or better than other teams ... all one has to do is go to Hockeydb and compare team by team results.

Montreal Canadiens Draft History at hockeydb.com

Ottawa Senators Draft History at hockeydb.com

Detroit Red Wings Draft History at hockeydb.com

Vancouver Canucks Draft History at hockeydb.com

Colorado Avalanche Draft History at hockeydb.com

...
Check out how many players have more than a season of NHL hockey since 2018, and how many outside the 1st. round have a season of NHL hockey.
There just need to be patience.
Just looking at one team is meaningless. You have to compare against all and see where you're at.

Yep. Just taking a quick look at drafting outside of top-20 picks, this is what the top-10 teams during that time period have gotten so far from 2018-2022 drafts:

Washington - 653 GP
Toronto - 553 GP
Minnesota - 317 GP
Colorado - 213 GP
Vegas - 190 GP
Boston - 153 GP
Pittsburgh - 145 GP
Carolina - 137 GP
Florida - 93 GP
Tampa - 65 GP

And if we just look at games played for the drafting team:

Washington - 561
Toronto - 324
Vegas - 190
Minnesota - 187
Boston - 153
Carolina - 137
Tampa - 44
Colorado - 34
Pittsburgh - 25
Florida - 9

And both of those numbers are going up for us, pretty fast.

 

[WTFMAN99]

It really is kind of crazy that he has a team high GF% when he's on the ice, one of the best GA/60 of the team when he's on the ice, the team high expected GF% when he's on the ice and a team high Corsi when he's on the ice.

I wonder how we should explain the difference between his actual results, and what your eye test perceives?

Meanwhile, we repeatedly have angry posters talking about the players that we gave up on too early, and here is a guy with great results, we want to give up on already...

It's not wrong though, he's "fine" out there but some of the defensive breakdowns are like glaringly bad. He's not the fleetest of foot but then you see the advanced stats and you're unsure as to what you're missing. I can tell he has a fantastic breakout pass but I don't love much else with his game.

I actually think it brings me back to Marincin's time where I had to say "I don't care what the numbers say"

 

[MarMarSab3]

It's not wrong though, he's "fine" out there but some of the defensive breakdowns are like glaringly bad. He's not the fleetest of foot but then you see the advanced stats and you're unsure as to what you're missing. I can tell he has a fantastic breakout pass but I don't love much else with his game.

I actually think it brings me back to Marincin's time where I had to say "I don't care what the numbers say"

Exactly, analytics is what kept Marincin employed for as long as he was, eventually reality sets in.

 

[LeafSteel]

Meanwhile, Timmins has 6 points, to Sandin's 11... while Timmins has only played in 15 games. Timmins can play with some physicality, has been foot speed. To be fair, Timmins is just learning to play defensively, despite his age... I think we made the right move.

Treliving adding Benoit is making that move look even better.

If we had kept Sandin, does Treliving make the move to bring in Benoit for 3LHD?

No 100% sure he does but I know who my preference is there….

Benoit&Cowan>Sandin

…. And that’s without even talking about cap hit and the learly indications that Sandin was going to be a challenge to work with for contracts and usage.

Feels like we dodged a headache waiting to happen to get exactly what we needed in Benoit and a very good prospect too.

 

[Lightsol]

They won with a 10.5mil player.

If it was up to me, Keefe would been gone after the Habs series. As the BJs series was his first crack and he didn’t coach the team for over a season yet.
Changes would had been made after the Habs series too. Willie and MM will be trade to get a different type of forward and a Dman. Dubas would be fired, maybe Shanny too.

2 10 million players, actually; both Pieterangelo and Eichel are over $10 mil.

 

[Lightsol]

They like the flash and dash of 34, 16, and 88 in the regular season better than watching the grind to the cup for whatever reason. President’s trophy or bust…….

Because being the best dirty team that can hurt your opponents to win or being the best team at implementing the trap = great?

 

[Lightsol]

There is no evidence of this.

Since 2018 we have got a total of 26 goals from all of our drafted forwards. Robertson leads the way with 10 total goals 5 years later.

None have played a full season for us. Lilly is the only consistent contributor who has played a full season of games for us and he is on our 3rd pair and was scratched in the playoffs.

At this point we have replacement level players. None of them save Lilly are regular contributors.

No one is expecting lottery player talent (which does happen, but not common).

Our ELC players are holmberg Mcmann knies and Robertson.

3 of the 4 are rotating healthy scratches. Knies looks over matched.

Making an NHL impact is vague and many guaranteed to make the NHL to some extent is meaningless and you have no idea if it’s true.

We literally played some u of t student last year. He made the NHL.

There are thousands of replacement level players. We need actual contributors.
Having no cap space and putting in mac hollowell and guys who play 10 games means nothing

None of what you have said is factual or proven.

If we had drafted good players we would have more Than 26 goals from forwards

But you don't see you're downgrading our entire prospect pool because of our idiot coach's "play the veterans ALWAYS" approach to building his lineup?

 

[Leafs4Life77]

2 10 million players, actually; both Pieterangelo and Eichel are over $10 mil.

FYI - Pietrangelo has a cap hit of $8.8M

 

[Lightsol]

FYI - Pietrangelo has a cap hit of $8.8M

Then Vegas did some cap finagiling with his contract, because it was defintely over $10 million when it started. Guessing it drops down over time?

 

[WTFMAN99]

I feel like these 2 deals actually give you a reasonably decent canvas to work with over the summer whether you execute them during this year or off-season...just tell me if they're realistic or not

CHI/TOR

Reaves
CAL 5th 2024
CHI 5th 2025

for

Future considerations

NSH/TOR

Kampf
Timmins
OTT 7th 2024

for

EDM 4th 2024
NSH 4th 2025

Then Vegas did some cap finagiling with his contract, because it was defintely over $10 million when it started. Guessing it drops down over time?

Middle/backloaded more than front loaded due to escrow

 

[Gabriel426]

2 10 million players, actually; both Pieterangelo and Eichel are over $10 mil.

Thought Pietra was around 9mil

 

[Rude Dog]

Now that 34 and 88 are signed long term, I am not sure this is the year the Leafs should do anything drastic. Trade bit parts, but unless they can get a young D who can fill a role for years to come, the 1st should be off the table. Limp into the play-offs and hope you get hot or a few bounces.

Hated watching Zadorov on Saturday night. Just couldn't help but think he would have been a perfect fit on this team especially given the price paid.