Trades and UFA’s - Trade Deadline Edition

[Lightsol]

Trading Marner would be a good step in the right direction that’s for sure.

It's a good way to signal this era of Leafs hockey is over and we should prepare for them to try and rebuild around an aging overpaid Nylander in three years.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

That was an ongoing discussion prior to the game, and stating facts to counter false claims is not propaganda. It is countering propaganda.
If we want to stretch it out further, then over 5 competitive years, our rental transactions break down as:

1st/2nd/2nd/3rd/3rd/4th/4th/4th/6th/Sandin/Engvall/Dermott/Ritchie
for
O'Rielly (75% retained)/Foligno (75% retained)/Schenn/Lyubushkin/Acciari/Galchenyuk/Blackwell/Gustafsson/Nash/Rittich/Hutton

That's not unreasonable at all. And that's with Dubas not even being given a chance to make any of O'Rielly/Schenn/Acciari/Gustafsson more than rentals.

Top teams in this league buy rentals, and you will never get away from that, but our future was not mortgaged at any point. We drafted well, supplemented well through FA/NCAA/overseas, didn't trade any of our top prospects, added extra picks through pick trades and taking on meaningless LTIR, etc. We can go back and forth over different transactions, but the overall fact of the matter is that our prospect pool was replenished, it's healthy, we've had more internal prospect help this year than any year since the post-rebuild dump in 2016, and there are plenty of promising prospects to come. It's the least of our concerns right now.

Come on man you are overlooking three main things (or you're doing it conveniently).

1. There is nothing to show for all of this accept Lafferty/McCabe.

2. One thing does not negate or cancel out the other.

3. Where's Marleau/Mrazek?

I'm sorry. Whichever way you spin it that's a lot of assets, futures, and NHLers.

We only have McCabe to show for it when you consider who's playing regularly with the team.

If it's not propaganda then it's Dubas PR.

 

[LeafEgo]

With the contracts they signed this summer, a roster of

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Knies-Tavares-Nylander
Kerfoot-Holmberg-Jarncrok
Lafferty-Kampf-Acciari
McMann

RIelly-Schenn
McCabe-Liljegren
Benoit-Brodie
Gio

Samsonov
Woll

Is cap compliant, with 315k left over. Maybe that could have been used to avoid arbitration with Samsonov, thereby not breaking his brain by giving him a detailed list of why we think he's shit.

That team is lightyears better defensively by virtue of building a proper bottom 6 with pker's, and two lines that don't need to be sheltered.

Don't like the Bunting and Schenn on those contracts, or in those spots? Neither do I. 7.25 in free agency to get Rielly a stay at home partner that can help the pk, and M&M a 3rd fiddle.
Don't want Kerfoot back? Fine 3.5 or less to get a speedy LW that can pk, is competent defensively, and support the transition game in the bottom 6/ or a decent defensive C that pushes Holmberg to LW.
Don't like Acciari- don't talk to me about defense/pk/grit/the importance of the bottom 6.

10.75m to fill 3 spots and still have a 22 man roster, while not completely forgetting that penalty killing is a part of hockey and ignoring the fundamentals of line construction/roles in the bottom 6.

Don't like the overall balance? Trade Marner or Nylander at the draft before their protections kick in.

The bottom line is that the table was set for this to be our best post core ELC roster. The rightful expectation was to be better, not take 3 steps back.

You built a lineup with five different players than what we have today and then went on to say four of them should be swapped out. So basically you wanted Laf instead of Gregor, and you would have spent the money differently in free agency, but even with hindsight, didn't provide any names of players who may not have signed with the Leafs anyways. Also we currently have over 4M in cap space because Kling broke.

There is something to discuss with trading Marner though not sure the timeline was realistic. You forgot Keefe, the biggest miss.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Bertuzzi + two 3rds to LA for Roy
LA is looking for a gritty winger to pair with PLD to get him going. They have to make room for Clark as well. It's the easiest move to make without using our first this year to bolster our blue line. Resign Roy 5 x 5 moving forward.

 

[Gabriel426]

They need a 2C who can play both ways not necessarily a great offensive threat but someone who play good D, hold on to the puck and can willing to shoot and score goals here and there.
JT will be on the wing with AM and MM next season bc that’s the Leafs way to make sure JT looks good.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Come on man you are overlooking three main things (or you're doing it conveniently).
1. There is nothing to show for all of this accept Lafferty/McCabe.
2. One thing does not negate or cancel out the other.
3. Where's Marleau/Mrazek?

None of McCabe/Lafferty/Marleau/Mrazek were rental transactions. Nothing was overlooked. They just have nothing to do with this.
I don't know what #2 is even supposed to mean.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

None of McCabe/Lafferty/Marleau/Mrazek were rental transactions. Nothing was overlooked. They just have nothing to do with this.
I don't know what #2 is even supposed to mean.

Topic: Dubas Propaganda.
Sub-Topic: trading assets, picks, and players.
Heading: Trades and UFAs

 

[Dekes For Days]

Topic: Dubas Propaganda.
Sub-Topic: trading assets, picks, and players.
Heading: Trades and UFAs

The topic was the incoming and outgoing assets in our rental trades over the years, and the current state of our prospect pool. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[LeafParade]

I imagine the Nylander and Matthews extensions eat up the projected cap increase and likely Domi's space.

If we are able to replace Bertuzzi/Brodie/Klingberg/Samsonov with players playing at or close to their cap hit value, this is a very different looking team.

There's an argument for shifting more money into goaltending, but taking a look at free agency I think the best we can hope for is a good 1A/1B option and hope the future of goaltending in Woll/Hildeby is closer to now than later...

There's also an argument for shifting some of Bert's money to defense but that probably depends on how high you are on McCabe and Lily.

I think if you go into next season with a bottom pairing of Benoit-McCabe things look pretty positive.

Matthews+Nylander raises eat up the cap increase and about another 1.5 M.

Then you get the following expiring...
Bertuzzi 5.5
Brodie 5
Klingberg 4.15
Samsonov 3.5
Domi 3

It as not as dire as some posters suggest. But management has to do their due diligence this time around.

None of Bertuzzi, Samsonov, Brodie, and Klingberg are worth their current cap hits. Not even close. If they actually take that capspace and allocate it properly, they should see a marked improvement.

I would try to grab Talblot on a one year deal. This buys time for Woll and Hildeby to be sorted out, and he isn't getting Samsonov's current cap hit. He signed a 1 M deal this past year with LA. I assume he takes less than Samonov's current cap hit.

Brodie+Klingberg cap = 1 top 4 D and a raise to Lilly. Probably some cash to spare if they don't target a 7M +defender.

Then they probably try to get a C (or potentially extend Domi). What do do with Bertuzzi's cap hit is the question. I would use it to go after another top 4 D.

Let Robertson, Minten, Greboynkin, Steeves, and Cowan battle it out for that forward spot. You already got Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Tavares, Jarnkrok, Knies, and Holmberg with potentially 7 out of 9 top forward spots. Domi or another C is 8.

They could also try to sign some low risk forward as a reclamation project that falls through in free agency. At the end of free agency, there are always players without a contract to their liking that will take a low end contract and bet on themselves.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

The topic was the incoming and outgoing assets in our rental trades over the years, and the current state of our prospect pool. I don't know what you're talking about.

Answer: already stated but sadly shining a bad light on Dubas.

 

[JEI]

Tavares wont have a say lol. He's got one more year as a Leaf.

It was in relation to being traded out. Sure his contract will expire and everyone could walk away but in terms of him waiving I don't see that happening. I think he walks or signs an extension (similar to Marner).

 

[rumman]

I think Marner's a much bigger issue than JT. JT only has one more year left, and than he's either gone, or quite possibly he signs a team friendly deal, either way he's no longer a problem but Marner's a different story. I mean if you want to sign him again and pay him somewhere between the Nylander and Matthews contracts that's one thing but if not, then getting something back for him instead of him walking would obviously be the way to go.

For JT it would be hard to find takers, for Marner we'd get a lot back that could help us going forward so he's the guy I'd pressure to waive, trade him immediately for prospects/picks or ideally, young talent, focus on rebuilding the D and hope to rise up again in 25-26.

But ... that's not the way this cupcake of an organization rolls so don't expect anyone to be pressured to waive, expect to instead extend Marner for between 12.5 and 13 million for as many years as he chooses and be prepared for another decade of irrelevance.

You never know, maybe Mitch’s new bride would like to live in California and or Arizona……….

 

[4thline]

You built a lineup with five different players than what we have today and then went on to say four of them should be swapped out.

No, I proved unequivocally that Tre had the option (cap wise) of bringing back essentially the same defensively strong supporting cast- none of this "woe is Tre, this is the best possible roster we could have had this season, he was left with nothing and no options' BS

Then I went on to say that 2/5 should be swapped out, and allowed for people to swap out 1 more that the fanbase had an irrational hatred for- as long as the swap accounted for addressing the things he brought to the team that his detractors never gave credit for.

 

[LeafParade]

No, I proved unequivocally that Tre had the option (cap wise) of bringing back essentially the same defensively strong supporting cast- none of this "woe is Tre, this is the best possible roster we could have had this season, he was left with nothing and no options BS"

Then I went on to say that 2/5 should be swapped out, and allowed for people to swap out 1 more that the fanbase had an irrational hatred for- as long as the swap accounted for addressing the things he brought to the team that his detractors never gave credit for.

This is why I am apprehensive when it comes to what he will do this summer with the available cap space. So far, he hasn't shown anything to suggest he won't misuse it.

 

[TMLAM34]

They need a 2C who can play both ways not necessarily a great offensive threat but someone who play good D, hold on to the puck and can willing to shoot and score goals here and there.
JT will be on the wing with AM and MM next season bc that’s the Leafs way to make sure JT looks good.

I wonder if Kotkaniemi could be an option. Carolina will need to free up cap space this summer and Kotkaniemi might be on the outside looking in. More of a third line center with not the best contract but we unfortunately don’t have the trade assets or prospect pipeline in order to trade or promote a second line center.

There really aren’t any other options even through free agency. Lindholm will price himself out. Roslovic and Stephenson are potentially the only other options.

 

[Gabriel426]

I wonder if Kotkaniemi could be an option. Carolina will need to free up cap space this summer and Kotkaniemi might be on the outside looking in. More of a third line center with not the best contract but we unfortunately don’t have the trade assets or prospect pipeline in order to trade or promote a second line center.

There really aren’t any other options even through free agency. Lindholm will price himself out. Roslovic and Stephenson are potentially the only other options.

Lindholm is the perfect fit but doubt he would slide in the 6mil range.
Stephenson would be the guy but doubt he will sign with the Leafs.
JT is a sunk cost. They won’t trade him and he is a precautionary story.
It seems like Willie and AM are staying.
Pretty sure MM wants to stay too but won’t be surprise if he is trade for another top player. Don’t want it to happen but if he asks for 13mil, you need to start thinking, can the team win with 3 11mil plus players?
And most of all, they need a new coach that is willing to split the big 4 into three different lines and stick to it. That’s where the other secondary scoring will come in. They won’t come by themselves rather they come by playing with AM, MM and Willie.

 

[ULF_55]

Lindholm is the perfect fit but doubt he would slide in the 6mil range.
Stephenson would be the guy but doubt he will sign with the Leafs.
JT is a sunk cost. They won’t trade him and he is a precautionary story.
It seems like Willie and AM are staying.
Pretty sure MM wants to stay too but won’t be surprise if he is trade for another top player. Don’t want it to happen but if he asks for 13mil, you need to start thinking, can the team win with 3 11mil plus players?
And most of all, they need a new coach that is willing to split the big 4 into three different lines and stick to it. That’s where the other secondary scoring will come in. They won’t come by themselves rather they come by playing with AM, MM and Willie.

marner has a NMC, but if he wants to move they could do a sign and trade, to get him an 8 year deal.

 

[weems]

We need to somehow acquire/sign a legit #2/3 that can play all situations and provide some offense.

I know these types of very hard to but the top end of our defensive unit is very poor right now with Rielly and then a huge drop off.

How good is Forsling? Does he fit this description? what will he ask for in free agency?

 

[Commander Clueless]

Lindholm is the perfect fit but doubt he would slide in the 6mil range.

If he keeps playing like this he'd be fortunate to make 6.

How good is Forsling? Does he fit this description? what will he ask for in free agency?

Forsling would be a perfect fit IMO but I also don't see a scenario where the Panthers let him walk if they can help it.

 

[weems]

If he keeps playing like this he'd be fortunate to make 6.



Forsling would be a perfect fit IMO but I also don't see a scenario where the Panthers let him walk if they can help it.

What type of contract do you think he will get?

 

[Trapper]

I think Marner's a much bigger issue than JT. JT only has one more year left, and than he's either gone, or quite possibly he signs a team friendly deal, either way he's no longer a problem but Marner's a different story. I mean if you want to sign him again and pay him somewhere between the Nylander and Matthews contracts that's one thing but if not, then getting something back for him instead of him walking would obviously be the way to go.

For JT it would be hard to find takers, for Marner we'd get a lot back that could help us going forward so he's the guy I'd pressure to waive, trade him immediately for prospects/picks or ideally, young talent, focus on rebuilding the D and hope to rise up again in 25-26.

But ... that's not the way this cupcake of an organization rolls so don't expect anyone to be pressured to waive, expect to instead extend Marner for between 12.5 and 13 million for as many years as he chooses and be prepared for another decade of irrelevance.

Sorry Gary, I had to stop right there as I was choking on my coffee.
I agree with your 12.5-13 assessment. No way I see anything less. This is what 90% of the fanbase wants. This core, carte blanche.

I would keep Matthews and Reilly and overhaul the rest. Too much bad playoff vibes with this construction.

 

[Commander Clueless]

What type of contract do you think he will get?

I'm really not sure, but at this point he is pacing for like 15 goals and like 50 points no?

If you go long term you're gambling a little.

 

[Gabriel426]

Lindholm is still the target for me.
I think he is someone that would benefit when playing with someone like MM or Willie.

Bert is a player I think will do well if Keefe knows how to use him better.

Domi is Domi.

Keefe needs to go. He can’t get the players to be accountable. Doesn’t know how to use his players at their strengths. Most of all, he is a panic coach that always lose when he gambles.
I think Gallant will do wonders with the current Leafs. You can’t tell me that first year Vegas defense is miles ahead of our current defense.

 

[nuck]

Lindholm is still the target for me.
I think he is someone that would benefit when playing with someone like MM or Willie.

Bert is a player I think will do well if Keefe knows how to use him better.

Domi is Domi.

Keefe needs to go. He can’t get the players to be accountable. Doesn’t know how to use his players at their strengths. Most of all, he is a panic coach that always lose when he gambles.
I think Gallant will do wonders with the current Leafs. You can’t tell me that first year Vegas defense is miles ahead of our current defense.

The word in Calgary was the Flames had put $8M+ x 8 to Lindholm which he turned down. I think he would be a great addition but not one they would be able to re-sign. Even after this season he will find a taker around 8 and that will be until he is 37. Not worth signing at what he thinks he is worth and way too costly as a rental.

I agree the next coach will get likely more out of Bertuzzi, Knies, and maybe even JT if his issues aren't medical. Absolutely Keefe needs to go but people will keep blaming the losses on the goaltending and the often shaky defense. This is Shanny's show until he gets fired I think, so that may mean a Woodcroft type collapse will be necessary to shake his faith. I don't think he can see the difference between good coach and not the right coach.

The closest comp I have for Sheldon is Todd McLellan who ran a regular season powerhouse in San Jose for 7 years and they had to miss the playoffs for him to get let go that last season. And then Peter Deboer took them to the finals the next year. Now in fairness to the Sharks they did make it to round 3 twice for Todd Mac so harder to blame the lineup as playoff weak but you shouldn't have to be lit on fire to know its time to move. Thornton was 36 by that time so not surprising they didn't bring it home but they got there.

 

[Gabriel426]

The word in Calgary was the Flames had put $8M+ x 8 to Lindholm which he turned down. I think he would be a great addition but not one they would be able to re-sign. Even after this season he will find a taker around 8 and that will be until he is 37. Not worth signing at what he thinks he is worth and way too costly as a rental.

I agree the next coach will get likely more out of Bertuzzi, Knies, and maybe even JT if his issues aren't medical. Absolutely Keefe needs to go but people will keep blaming the losses on the goaltending and the often shaky defense. This is Shanny's show until he gets fired I think, so that may mean a Woodcroft type collapse will be necessary to shake his faith. I don't think he can see the difference between good coach and not the right coach.

The closest comp I have for Sheldon is Todd McLellan who ran a regular season powerhouse in San Jose for 7 years and they had to miss the playoffs for him to get let go that last season. And then Peter Deboer took them to the finals the next year. Now in fairness to the Sharks they did make it to round 3 twice for Todd Mac so harder to blame the lineup as playoff weak but you shouldn't have to be lit on fire to know its time to move. Thornton was 36 by that time so not surprising they didn't bring it home but they got there.

Vegas won with their 4th string goalie last season.
Vegas made it to the Finals with Dmen where NHL teams didn’t want.
If people can’t see that and still think Keefe is great, he just needed better players….
To me, a Keefe is just like any other NHL coach, nothing special about him.
Good- Great coach are coaches that can juice everything and more out of the players and have a system where it covers players shortcomings. Most importantly, hold players accountable every shift, every game….
Keefe don’t know how to do that. Maybe he does but the players just didn’t care.