Trades and UFA’s - Trade Deadline Edition

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Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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No, he's competing against Fletcher, Burke, Nonis, Lou, and Treliving, over a time period of 16 years. And that's just how far back the records go. Us being bad defensively likely goes back further than that. Looking at another site that goes another year back to 2007-2008 (under JFJ), we were 28th.

We were repeatedly among the worst in the league defensively for at least over a decade, across multiple GMs. Dubas remakes our defense within a couple years - adding multiple high-end defensemen, good defensive depth, and defensive proficiency in our forward group - while spending a higher percentage of draft picks on defensemen than exist on an active roster, turning us into a top-10 defensive team for multiple years, and you're out here trying to claim that he ignored defense.

If you want ignoring defense, maybe look to the guy that came in, immediately allocated less to defense, signed a bunch of the worst defensive players in the league, didn't replace our big defensive loss from the previous year, and tanked our defensive results, instead of blaming and falsely representing the only Leaf GM in the entire cap era that actually did something and got good defensive results.

Adding a 2nd Muzzin to the mix while we had Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie already in the mix would not have been worth the cost. For the entire time we had those 3, we already had a contender defense. Players in their early 30s who are still contributing do not need to be aggressively moved off; especially when they don't hold crushing term. Muzzin suffered a fluke, career-ending injury, and Brodie was an excellent player for us through Dubas' tenure.

McDonagh had more term and a higher cap hit, which forced their hand a bit more, but what Tampa got from dumping him was a cap dump in return, and an immediately worse defensive team. I'm not sure why your go-to example is something that isn't all that similar, and that hurt the team that did it.

We paid a great price for 2 and a half years of a retained 2m McCabe, and he was somebody that helped both in the moment and into the future, so not really sure what you mean. We can sit here picking apart every cherry picked transaction in recent history to put it up against deadline deals, but also worth noting that Ekholm cost more in cap, Lindholm cost more in cap and assets, and we don't know where he (or Toews for that matter) was willing to extend. And captain hindsight doesn't really factor in the risk assessments for us at the time.

And quite frankly, as much as I wish we got Toews, we didn't really need a Toews when he was traded. We already had Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie at that point, no open top-4 LD spots, and forward depth was a bigger concern, and even more-so after injuries, which is why we acquired forward depth at the deadline that year, that everybody here seemed to be happy about.

And for the record, it should be noted that above, you're claiming that the GM was stupid for not moving off effective players in their early 30s in Muzzin and Brodie, and then in the same breath, you're claiming that the GM was stupid for not trading for somebody in the exact same age range, that actually had fallen off, and came with more term. At least pick a lane.

Or, put another way, Dubas spent his first two draft picks on defensemen, and used half of his 1st round picks on defensemen, while using a higher percentage of overall draft picks and draft picks in the first 3 rounds on defenseman than their proportion of an active roster. That is not abandoning defensive drafting.

Kyle Dubas is only competing with Fletcher, Quinn, Burke, Nonis and Lamoriello for people who cheer for Kyle Dubas. For most people frustrated with the Leafs he’s just part of the pantheon of failure.

The shittiness of the Leafs blueline and lack of playoff success over Dubas’ tenure speaks for itself. The lack of reinforcements this year under Treliving speaks for itself. The elevation of one random Simon Benoit in a sea of mediocrity speaks for itself.
 

4thline

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Jul 18, 2014
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I think it is more likely he thought:

Rielly is good
Brodie is shite
McCabe is decent but probably playing in situations that are too much for him
Liljegren is up and down
Gio is shite
Timmins is shite.

He then probably thought, what prospects and draft capital do i have to improve this group, and realized, there is pretty much f*** all.

He then probably thought, what in the f*** am I supposed to do with this group? Tell you what, I'll take a 1 year punt on Klingberg and deal with this shit later on.
He probably should have considered spending more of his UFA money on D then eh? Gio and Timmins were/are completely buriable.
 
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Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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Kyle Dubas is only competing with Fletcher, Quinn, Burke, Nonis and Lamoriello for people who cheer for Kyle Dubas. For most people frustrated with the Leafs he’s just part of the pantheon of failure. The shittiness of the Leafs blueline and lack of playoff success over Dubas’ tenure speaks for itself. The lack of reinforcements this year under Treliving speaks for itself. The elevation of one random Simon Benoit in a sea of mediocrity speaks for itself.
The Leafs blueline wasn't "shitty" under Dubas. It was "shitty" under everybody else, and good under Dubas - because of Dubas, the focus he put on it, and the additions/decisions he made. Objectively, your statement was wrong, as you can see from the breakdown I provided. He not only built an infinitely better defensive team than every surrounding Leaf GM in the cap era, but a better defensive team than the majority of the league. That matters for people who cheer for the Leafs.

Treliving's questionable defensive choices since don't say anything about anybody except Treliving.
 

TMLAM34

Registered User
Oct 15, 2020
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We are definitely not 4 dmen away from icing a contending blueline.

Rielly, McCabe, Liljegren and Benoit are perfectly fine.

We need a top pairing and a second pairing defenceman.

Andersson would be a dream but cost a ton to acquire… Parayko isn’t a bad option and more realistic IMO.
 

jiggy35

Registered User
Jun 26, 2012
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Holmberg w some confidence and Domi/Marner bit of chemistry, wouldn’t mind seeing top 9

Domi - Matthews - Marner
Bertuzzi - Tavares - Nylander
Knies - Holmberg - Jarnkrok

Holmberg used more on pk, Matthews double dipping throughout the game.
 

BertCorbeau

F*ck cancer - RIP Fugu and Buffaloed
Jan 6, 2012
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Looking ahead for the blue line, one UFA target that I see if he makes it is Matt Roy .. a quality RHD that could be the Brodie replacement we need, and is 28 currently. Likely comes cheap than other known names like Pesce and Hanifin

Rielly-Roy
McCabe-Liljegren
Benoit-Brodie

Let Gio walk .. depending on cost though, I'd look at re-signing Brodie. But the idea is to reduce his minutes and play him in a lesser role. I think less big minutes and fresh off-season will help. He's had a tough year with his dad's passing and I think that's partially affected him. But at the end of the day he is aging as well, but him in a depth role wouldn't be bad.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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The Leafs blueline wasn't "shitty" under Dubas. It was "shitty" under everybody else, and good under Dubas - because of Dubas, the focus he put on it, and the additions/decisions he made. Objectively, your statement was wrong, as you can see from the breakdown I provided. He not only built an infinitely better defensive team than every surrounding Leaf GM in the cap era, but a better defensive team than the majority of the league. That matters for people who cheer for the Leafs.

Treliving's questionable defensive choices since don't say anything about anybody except Treliving.

The Leafs blueline under Dubas was absolutely shitty, in particularly after Muzzin’s career ender at the start of last season. The fact that Muzzin was already hurt in the summer before, was injured on the first day of training camp and then career ended a week into the season - and no attempt at LTIR and replacement was even contemplated tells me all I need to know. Leafs trading multiple futures out for an ROR rental at C when we could have for Ekholm tells me they’re not serious.

A quality blueline doesn’t lose Justin Holl and Luke Schenn and fall into shambles in one offseason. Guys like Brodie, Gio were already running on fumes and happen to run out under Treliving’s watch.

Pretty amusing that the Dubas fall back was how much time he has to spend cleaning up after Uncle Lou but 42 games into Treliving’s tenure he’s supposedly on the hot seat for failing to fix the blueline.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
80,848
58,063
Looking ahead for the blue line, one UFA target that I see if he makes it is Matt Roy .. a quality RHD that could be the Brodie replacement we need, and is 28 currently. Likely comes cheap than other known names like Pesce and Hanifin

Rielly-Roy
McCabe-Liljegren
Benoit-Brodie

Let Gio walk .. depending on cost though, I'd look at re-signing Brodie. But the idea is to reduce his minutes and play him in a lesser role. I think less big minutes and fresh off-season will help. He's had a tough year with his dad's passing and I think that's partially affected him. But at the end of the day he is aging as well, but him in a depth role wouldn't be bad.

I think we need a 2 pack of defensemen. The dream scenario that puts us into contention would be 1 player superior to Rielly and 1 player in the 3 spot, bump everyone down.

The more realistic is you get someone like Roy and a Hanifin/Pesce so you’ve covered the holes left by Muzzin and Brodie.

One guy I really want back is Sean Durzi. If he’s not bolted down to Arizona’s plans I’d be interested in having him boost the transition game.
 

LeafSteel

GO LEAFS GO!!!
Mar 5, 2014
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Looking ahead for the blue line, one UFA target that I see if he makes it is Matt Roy .. a quality RHD that could be the Brodie replacement we need, and is 28 currently. Likely comes cheap than other known names like Pesce and Hanifin

Rielly-Roy
McCabe-Liljegren
Benoit-Brodie

Let Gio walk .. depending on cost though, I'd look at re-signing Brodie. But the idea is to reduce his minutes and play him in a lesser role. I think less big minutes and fresh off-season will help. He's had a tough year with his dad's passing and I think that's partially affected him. But at the end of the day he is aging as well, but him in a depth role wouldn't be bad.
Would very much like Matt Roy. Add Peeked for a blue line of

Rielly-Roy
McCabe-Liljegren
Benoit/Lagesson-Peeke
Gio-Timmins

I’m good with this.
 
Oct 15, 2014
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The Duke's Archives
The Leafs blueline under Dubas was absolutely shitty, in particularly after Muzzin’s career ender at the start of last season. The fact that Muzzin was already hurt in the summer before, was injured on the first day of training camp and then career ended a week into the season - and no attempt at LTIR and replacement was even contemplated tells me all I need to know. Leafs trading multiple futures out for an ROR rental at C when we could have for Ekholm tells me they’re not serious.

A quality blueline doesn’t lose Justin Holl and Luke Schenn and fall into shambles in one offseason. Guys like Brodie, Gio were already running on fumes and happen to run out under Treliving’s watch.

Pretty amusing that the Dubas fall back was how much time he has to spend cleaning up after Uncle Lou but 42 games into Treliving’s tenure he’s supposedly on the hot seat for failing to fix the blueline.

Yeah the Leafs never had a cup calibre D group under Dubas. You had high end forwards with no one outside of Rielly (and maybe Lily) to get them the puck. Too often, at least 4-5 of his D had zero offensive instincts, and it played a massive role for the scoring issues in the playoffs

Smart pinches, creating plays in the o zone, solid transition game, breakout passes, etc. You weren't getting any of that from Gio, Holl, Brodie, McCabe, etc.
 

BertCorbeau

F*ck cancer - RIP Fugu and Buffaloed
Jan 6, 2012
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I think we need a 2 pack of defensemen. The dream scenario that puts us into contention would be 1 player superior to Rielly and 1 player in the 3 spot, bump everyone down.

The more realistic is you get someone like Roy and a Hanifin/Pesce so you’ve covered the holes left by Muzzin and Brodie.

One guy I really want back is Sean Durzi. If he’s not bolted down to Arizona’s plans I’d be interested in having him boost the transition game.

Roy and Hanifin would be large game changers .. problem being is cap. Leafs have $21.9 mill in cap space so far next season.

Say Roy/Hanifin cost a combined $13 million, that leaves just under $8 mill for:

- re-signing Lily and Benoit
- goaltending
- replacing Domi/Bert's spots up front

Approximately 10 contracts basically, so there would be a lot of reliance on younger players.

It'd look something like:

Holmberg-Matthews-Marner
Knies-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson-Minten-Jarnkrok
Gregor-Kampf-McMann

Rielly-Roy
Hanifin-Liljegren
Benoit-McCabe
Timmins

Woll
Hildeby

Not a lot flexibility but it's doable IMO. Assuming you're re-signing Marner, you're just trying to ride out Tavares' last year in his contract streamlining the roster up front. But freeing up cap the following season allows for another addition up front. All while the blue line would be locked in for the long term.
 

Larcos_Unal

Excuses are for losers
Jul 6, 2007
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depending on cost though, I'd look at re-signing Brodie.

there is no dollar value low enough that warrants Brodie coming back
wut.gif
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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The Leafs blueline under Dubas was absolutely shitty, in particularly after Muzzin’s career ender at the start of last season. The fact that Muzzin was already hurt in the summer before, was injured on the first day of training camp and then career ended a week into the season - and no attempt at LTIR and replacement was even contemplated tells me all I need to know. Leafs trading multiple futures out for an ROR rental at C when we could have for Ekholm tells me they’re not serious.
A quality blueline doesn’t lose Justin Holl and Luke Schenn and fall into shambles in one offseason. Guys like Brodie, Gio were already running on fumes and happen to run out under Treliving’s watch.
Pretty amusing that the Dubas fall back was how much time he has to spend cleaning up after Uncle Lou but 42 games into Treliving’s tenure he’s supposedly on the hot seat for failing to fix the blueline.
The Leafs blueline under Dubas was not "shitty". Your personal feelings do not overrule objective fact.

Muzzin was healthy coming into last season, and was still an important and effective piece, coming off an excellent playoff performance. Permanently losing him to a fluke cervical spine injury that had nothing to do with previous injuries certainly impacted us, but we were still a good defensive team after that. We still got good defensive results. And that's because Dubas had built up a strong defense around him, built up solid defensive ability in his forward group to support, and because contrary to your claims, he did address it in-season, and brought in 3 defensemen (McCabe, Schenn, and Gustafsson), while also bringing in a Selke-caliber forward, and multiple defensively-conscience pieces to boost our forward depth defensive ability and assist our PK.

Again, why would you want Ekholm? You claim we should have purged Muzzin, but you want to bring in and sacrifice other pieces for an equally old and more expensive defenseman with more term experiencing a much bigger decline? It's hypocritical.

We didn't just lose Holl and Schenn. We lost Muzzin to injury in-season, and then we lost Holl, Schenn, Sandin, Gustafsson, Benn, O'Rielly, Kerfoot, Engvall, Acciari, Lafferty, and ZAR. And then we went out and spent big money on some of the worst defensive players in the league, while not replacing the Muzzin loss (or any defensive loss for that matter) or protecting against possible age-related decline in Giordano. Brodie's decline is heavily exaggerated and he was good for us throughout Dubas' tenure. If Treliving thought that Brodie was going to decline this year, he had opportunity to do something about that too. He had positive value.

Dubas took over a bad defensive team that featured defensive cap anchors and a top-4D that would soon start to break down to career-ending injuries in his late 20s, and he was already adding a top-pairing defenseman half a season into his tenure, and had us as a top defensive team within a couple years. Treliving took over a good defensive team and dropped them back to being a bad defensive team, with bad decisions that would obviously have that exact result. He didn't need to fix our defensive results. He just needed to not sabotage it like he has.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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Looking ahead for the blue line, one UFA target that I see if he makes it is Matt Roy .. a quality RHD that could be the Brodie replacement we need, and is 28 currently. Likely comes cheap than other known names like Pesce and Hanifin

Rielly-Roy
McCabe-Liljegren
Benoit-Brodie

Let Gio walk .. depending on cost though, I'd look at re-signing Brodie. But the idea is to reduce his minutes and play him in a lesser role. I think less big minutes and fresh off-season will help. He's had a tough year with his dad's passing and I think that's partially affected him. But at the end of the day he is aging as well, but him in a depth role wouldn't be bad.

Brodie at say 2-2.5 mil looks fine to me on the third pairing next season. I think a lot of his down year is definitely due to all the off ice stuff he's had to deal with, which I don't think will last
 
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Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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Brodie at say 2-2.5 mil looks fine to me on the third pairing next season. I think a lot of his down year is definitely due to all the off ice stuff he's had to deal with, which I don't think will last
He's also had to take on more responsibility at the same time, with our offseason losses and in-season injuries. We shouldn't be giving him any significant term at this stage, but at a lower cost, he'd still be an effective and valuable piece moving forward.
 

The Management

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Jun 8, 2009
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Not a lot flexibility but it's doable IMO. Assuming you're re-signing Marner, you're just trying to ride out Tavares' last year in his contract streamlining the roster up front. But freeing up cap the following season allows for another addition up front. All while the blue line would be locked in for the long term.

I'd be fine with allocating more cap to the blueline and trying to find other economy pieces to plug and play up front. That would at least give the backend a fresh new look.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
80,848
58,063
Roy and Hanifin would be large game changers .. problem being is cap. Leafs have $21.9 mill in cap space so far next season.

Say Roy/Hanifin cost a combined $13 million, that leaves just under $8 mill for:

- re-signing Lily and Benoit
- goaltending
- replacing Domi/Bert's spots up front

Approximately 10 contracts basically, so there would be a lot of reliance on younger players.

It'd look something like:

Holmberg-Matthews-Marner
Knies-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson-Minten-Jarnkrok
Gregor-Kampf-McMann

Rielly-Roy
Hanifin-Liljegren
Benoit-McCabe
Timmins

Woll
Hildeby

Not a lot flexibility but it's doable IMO. Assuming you're re-signing Marner, you're just trying to ride out Tavares' last year in his contract streamlining the roster up front. But freeing up cap the following season allows for another addition up front. All while the blue line would be locked in for the long term.

Yeah it certainly comes down to the question of cap. I suppose an alternative solution is we get one of Hanifin, put the money towards more offensive depth and then we get the second upgrade once JT’s wrapped up a year later, splitting his money into another D and an F and a raise to Woll.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
80,848
58,063
Brodie at say 2-2.5 mil looks fine to me on the third pairing next season. I think a lot of his down year is definitely due to all the off ice stuff he's had to deal with, which I don't think will last

I would lean towards no Brodie at all. If we want to be bigger, more athletic, harder to play against I think we just want to move on from as many pieces we have now as possible.
 

All Mod Cons

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Sep 7, 2018
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The Leafs blueline under Dubas was absolutely shitty, in particularly after Muzzin’s career ender at the start of last season. The fact that Muzzin was already hurt in the summer before, was injured on the first day of training camp and then career ended a week into the season - and no attempt at LTIR and replacement was even contemplated tells me all I need to know. Leafs trading multiple futures out for an ROR rental at C when we could have for Ekholm tells me they’re not serious.

A quality blueline doesn’t lose Justin Holl and Luke Schenn and fall into shambles in one offseason. Guys like Brodie, Gio were already running on fumes and happen to run out under Treliving’s watch.

Pretty amusing that the Dubas fall back was how much time he has to spend cleaning up after Uncle Lou but 42 games into Treliving’s tenure he’s supposedly on the hot seat for failing to fix the blueline.
During Dubas' tenure, the first 2.5 years was Lou's/Mike's fault. The next 2 years was a combination of the fans, weather and taxes fault. And then finally year was Shanny's fault.

Pretty remarkable.
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
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Looking at our cap situation i think we should be looking to trade for one D and go to UFA for the other

Like Fabbro and Roy or Peeke and Tanev

We don't have a ton of assets Or cap space but if we use both judiciously i think we can improve the blue line and not tap ourselves out to other opportunities to improve elsewhere
 
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Sypher04

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
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While I’m not firmly against a Brodie return next year for cheap, our backend needs to get younger, faster and meaner.

Rielly is the only player I would definitively not look at upgrading on. I think Benoit and McCabe can play depth roles here well as well.

Still like Lijegren but if he needs to be a cap & asset casualty of getting upgrades on the backend, so be it.
 
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