Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Niagara Bill]

"Clutchness" is in most cases largely just a post-occurrence rationalization of how things happen to play out, and not an inherent quality of an individual. They've also had plenty of clutch moments and putting the team on their back moments. They just get forgotten when the team doesn't win the series.

Except it doesn't. We've had a really balanced team in offense and defense for years, and while goaltending hasn't always been there, we've had pretty average spending on our goaltending, and goaltending isn't something you can just throw money at to fix.

Yes, our defense has been good enough to win, and we have had 4 legitimate top 4 defensemen. Whether we have that now depends on if/how Klingberg rebounds, and Liljegren's development, but that's more a result of Treliving making a questionable signing decision and transferring more money from defense to forward than ever before, not an inability to get that due to cap space.

We've had an effective shutdown line and a pretty quality bottom six for years. Our lack of "shutdown line" now was a decision - opting for players like Reaves that suck and fit nowhere, getting bad defensive forwards, and loading up our top six - not a necessity due to cap. Teams don't really win off high paid bottom sixes. They usually win off filling those spots with cheap players and ELCs that perform beyond their pay.

Our defence has been good enough. What are you watching. Gio is a good 7, 6 at most.
TJ is done and us a 6 or 5. Lilly....maybe a 5 with the right guy. Morgan, good 3, average 2.
McCabe a 4 at best, maybe good 5.
Colonel Klink, we have to wait, is he Schultz or Hogan.

 

[andora]

Bertuzzi-Tavares-Marner is the obvious fit imo, they play at the same pace and it opens up JT to shoot more with Bertuzzi taking over the net front role. Knies fits Matthews-Nylander better in terms of pace and an aggressive game on the boards forcing turnovers.

in theory these lines write themselves but for some reason i see domi matthews marner

 

[LeafChief]

Trading Jarnkrok for a pick and signing Tatar for around 1x1 doesn't make the team any worse and gets the team cap compliant.

 

[Burnie97]

Bertuzzi-Tavares-Marner is the obvious fit imo, they play at the same pace and it opens up JT to shoot more with Bertuzzi taking over the net front role. Knies fits Matthews-Nylander better in terms of pace and an aggressive game on the boards forcing turnovers.

All for that too man ... that makes sense. Only reason I didn't want to say Knies on the top line is I doubt Keefe would do it (rookie bullshit etc) but we'll see. Just looking forward to seeing a new mix.

Hopefully they'll find a way to do something with the D but I'm not overly concerned ... Gio maybe but someone needs to step up like Lilly and give Timmins more games too.

I think Leafs are okay compared to what the other top Atlantic teams did in the east but I think Ottawa and Buffalo ... even if I hate saying it... will be pushing for a wild card. Goaltending needs to come through. We can still say the same for the Leafs too. Need another good year from Sammy.

Wondering if Keefes philosophy will change with Treliving here.

 

[Magic Man]

Trading Jarnkrok for a pick and signing Tatar for around 1x1 doesn't make the team any worse and gets the team cap compliant.

Need to keep some defensive minded guys who can PK.

 

[LeafChief]

Need to keep some defensive minded guys who can PK.

Fair point.

 

[Fogelhund]

Our defence has been good enough. What are you watching. Gio is a good 7, 6 at most.
TJ is done and us a 6 or 5. Lilly....maybe a 5 with the right guy. Morgan, good 3, average 2.
McCabe a 4 at best, maybe good 5.
Colonel Klink, we have to wait, is he Schultz or Hogan.

I guess our goalies are the best in the league?

 

[Burnie97]

Need to keep some defensive minded guys who can PK.

We got rid of Holl though ....

 

[Dekes For Days]

Except that our core are not clutch players.
And yes, bringing back the same group of core players that can’t carry this team in the playoffs, and having a group of supporting players that are unable to occasionally carry the team when needed, as opposed to making a substantial trade (meaning at least one of the core) to actually improve the weaker areas, that is indeed doing the same thing over and expecting different results.

Again, "clutch" as an inherent quality of an individual is not really a thing (at least not to the extent people think it is), and our core have had plenty of "clutch" moments. And again, bringing back your core is literally what all teams do. That's why they are a core, and you build around that with changing supporting players. That's how it works.

If 100% of our roster was exactly the same, the quote still wouldn't apply, because hockey is inherently a system where even the exact same player inputs will produce vastly different outputs and outcomes. But we also don't even have anywhere close to 100% of the same roster. In fact, 11 out of the 23 players to play a playoff game for us this past year were not here the year before. That is very much not the same thing over and over, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect changing outcomes in this scenario regardless, especially with past margins being so miniscule.

We don't really have any "weak areas", but any comparatively weaker areas we have also wouldn't really be solved by throwing money at it. Most likely outcome is overpaying bottom six players and goalies that don't actually provide anything more than what we've had, while losing the massive impact of the core player. Net result - the team is worse, and we've increased our potential for cap anchors.

Our defence has been good enough. What are you watching. Gio is a good 7, 6 at most.
TJ is done and us a 6 or 5. Lilly....maybe a 5 with the right guy. Morgan, good 3, average 2.
McCabe a 4 at best, maybe good 5.
Colonel Klink, we have to wait, is he Schultz or Hogan.

Lol. Not only do you seem to be talking about next year's defense for some reason in response to a statement about past defenses, but also, those labels are hilariously wrong.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Again, "clutch" as an inherent quality of an individual is not really a thing (at least not to the extent people think it is), and our core have had plenty of "clutch" moments. And again, bringing back your core is literally what all teams do. That's why they are a core, and you build around that with changing supporting players. That's how it works.

If 100% of our roster was exactly the same, the quote still wouldn't apply, because hockey is inherently a system where even the exact same player inputs will produce vastly different outputs and outcomes. But we also don't even have anywhere close to 100% of the same roster. In fact, 11 out of the 23 players to play a playoff game for us this past year were not here the year before. That is very much not the same thing over and over, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect changing outcomes in this scenario regardless, especially with past margins being so miniscule.

We don't really have any "weak areas", but any comparatively weaker areas we have also wouldn't really be solved by throwing money at it. Most likely outcome is overpaying bottom six players and goalies that don't actually provide anything more than what we've had, while losing the massive impact of the core player. Net result - the team is worse, and we've increased our potential for cap anchors.

Lol. Not only do you seem to be talking about next year's defense for some reason in response to a statement about past defenses, but also, those labels are hilariously wrong.

In closing, Dekes, Matthews and Marner were overpaid. This is my opinion. In your opinion, they weren’t. Bringing in Tavares, and then paying Matthews and Marner what they did, was a regular season success, but in no means a playoff success (again, one playoff round win in 5 years is a pretty big sample size). As well, it showed who they were all about, and it certainly wasn’t the team. During these past 5 playoffs, there have been far too many times where this team has not started on time, these core players have been invisible numerous times (that is on them!), no killer instinct (that is on them!).

Leaders lead in many different ways, and other players follow their example. I don’t see that with this team, and maybe that’s just me. It really struck me odd these past playoffs when Schenn had the team go out together for a team meal while on the road during the Tampa series, something that apparently hadn’t been done before with this core group. Maybe that’s the way it is with most teams nowadays, I don’t know. But to me, it seems like another way that this team is not really a “team”. You have the superstars who look out for themselves by making sure they get all that they “deserve” (your words), and the “foot soldiers” who are expected to do all the “grunt work”.

Again, just my opinion, but this team seems to be a team of cliques, rather than a team that would go through a wall for one another.

 

[Dekes For Days]

In closing, Dekes, Matthews and Marner were overpaid. This is my opinion. In your opinion, they weren’t. Bringing in Tavares, and then paying Matthews and Marner what they did, was a regular season success, but in no means a playoff success (again, one playoff round win in 5 years is a pretty big sample size). As well, it showed who they were all about, and it certainly wasn’t the team. During these past 5 playoffs, there have been far too many times where this team has not started on time, these core players have been invisible numerous times (that is on them!), no killer instinct (that is on them!).

Leaders lead in many different ways, and other players follow their example. I don’t see that with this team, and maybe that’s just me. It really struck me odd these past playoffs when Schenn had the team go out together for a team meal while on the road during the Tampa series, something that apparently hadn’t been done before with this core group. Maybe that’s the way it is with most teams nowadays, I don’t know. But to me, it seems like another way that this team is not really a “team”. You have the superstars who look out for themselves by making sure they get all that they “deserve” (your words), and the “foot soldiers” who are expected to do all the “grunt work”.

Again, just my opinion, but this team seems to be a team of cliques, rather than a team that would go through a wall for one another.

They were not overpaid, and you've been shown plenty of proof of that. Taking contracts that pay them according to the same standards as everybody else does not indicate anything about their commitment or dedication to the team. Bringing in Tavares, and keeping Matthews and Marner, has led to a top tier team. Being a top tier team doesn't mean that you'll automatically win the cup, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to improve the quality of your team. or that you should dismantle a great team out of impatience.

No team or player is perfect 100% of the time, and our team and players are no different, but while our outcomes over recent playoffs haven't matched our objectives, your representation of our and their performances is not accurate. Eating dinner as a full group on the road doesn't make one a team, and that's not what leadership is, and for the record, we had a grand total of 3 games where that was even possible, due to the pandemic during the first couple years that Keefe was coach. Every team has core, better players, and supporting, lesser players. Paying players relative to their impact is not abnormal, and our top players do plenty of "grunt work" - they just also bring way more than that on top.

I see a team that is really close, that has a lot of good leaders and personalities, that has the ability to win, and that desperately wants to win, and they go through plenty of walls in pursuit of that. That's also what pretty much everybody who has an insider perspective seems to see too.

 

[tmlfan98]

Trading Jarnkrok for a pick and signing Tatar for around 1x1 doesn't make the team any worse and gets the team cap compliant.

Interesting idea, considering both players are regular season guys and ineffective come playoff time. Might be better to target someone who could be effective in both the regular season and playoffs though.

 

[Captain Crunch]

They were not overpaid, and you've been shown plenty of proof of that. Taking contracts that pay them according to the same standards as everybody else does not indicate anything about their commitment or dedication to the team. Bringing in Tavares, and keeping Matthews and Marner, has led to a top tier team. Being a top tier team doesn't mean that you'll automatically win the cup, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to improve the quality of your team. or that you should dismantle a great team out of impatience.

No team or player is perfect 100% of the time, and our team and players are no different, but while our outcomes over recent playoffs haven't matched our objectives, your representation of our and their performances is not accurate. Eating dinner as a full group on the road doesn't make one a team, and that's not what leadership is, and for the record, we had a grand total of 3 games where that was even possible, due to the pandemic during the first couple years that Keefe was coach. Every team has core, better players, and supporting, lesser players. Paying players relative to their impact is not abnormal, and our top players do plenty of "grunt work" - they just also bring way more than that on top.

I see a team that is really close, that has a lot of good leaders and personalities, that has the ability to win, and that desperately wants to win, and they go through plenty of walls in pursuit of that. That's also what pretty much everybody who has an insider perspective seems to see too.

I guess we’ll see soon enough. If Matthews takes a team friendly deal, then I would assume Marner would, and probably Nylander as well. But if not, then we will know what their top priority really is, and it won’t be about winning. And if this does occur, then will Nylander be traded before the season starts (when I believe they could get the most for him), or trade him at the deadline (not get as much for a rental), or let him walk for nothing after the season? Matthews knows he holds all the cards in this. How bad does he really want to win?

As for team meals, I never said it was the be-all end-all. Also, there would have been opportunities for team dinners before the pandemic, unless I’m mistaken. And as I also said, that may not have been important. However, when Luke Schenn, you know, the player who recently played on a Cup winning team, says he was appalled when he found out this team had never gone out for team dinners which he felt helped create a winning culture, then there may be something to it (and you can definitely say he’s on the inside and in the know!).
Besides winning individual awards, I don’t see how these two pampered prima donnas have done much to build a winning culture within the team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I guess we’ll see soon enough. If Matthews takes a team friendly deal, then I would assume Marner would, and probably Nylander as well. But if not, then we will know what their top priority really is, and it won’t be about winning. And if this does occur, then will Nylander be traded before the season starts (when I believe they could get the most for him), or trade him at the deadline (not get as much for a rental), or let him walk for nothing after the season? Matthews knows he holds all the cards in this. How bad does he really want to win?

Taking a normal contract like everybody else wouldn't mean they're not committed to winning, and it has no impact on trading Nylander. Both can and should be kept.

As for team meals, I never said it was the be-all end-all. Also, there would have been opportunities for team dinners before the pandemic, unless I’m mistaken. And as I also said, that may not have been important. However, when Luke Schenn, you know, the player who recently played on a Cup winning team, says he was appalled when he found out this team had never gone out for team dinners which he felt helped create a winning culture, then there may be something to it (and you can definitely say he’s on the inside and in the know!).

The statement was about what Keefe had seen since he started here. So it was referring to the 2020, 2021, and 2022 playoff series. 2020 and 2021 was the pandemic, so we're really talking about them not having team dinners for 3 road games in 2022. I don't recall Schenn being "appalled". I remember him mentioning that he had found a couple team dinners helpful in the past. But teams and people are different. This is such an arbitrary way to evaluate the closeness of a group, or culture. This doesn't even mean that most players didn't eat together. It could just be as simple as some people having different food preferences/dietary requirements, or different pre-game preparations and rituals.

 

[andora]

Taking a normal contract like everybody else wouldn't mean they're not committed to winning, and it has no impact on trading Nylander. Both can and should be kept.

The statement was about what Keefe had seen since he started here. So it was referring to the 2020, 2021, and 2022 playoff series. 2020 and 2021 was the pandemic, so we're really talking about them not having team dinners for 3 road games in 2022. I don't recall Schenn being "appalled". I remember him mentioning that he had found a couple team dinners helpful in the past. But teams and people are different. This is such an arbitrary way to evaluate the closeness of a group, or culture. This doesn't even mean that most players didn't eat together. It could just be as simple as some people having different food preferences/dietary requirements, or different pre-game preparations and rituals.

This team is different..or unique to the norm. Anyone without an agenda ir pre conceived notion can see it play out...

 

[Dekes For Days]

This team is different..or unique to the norm.

I think you'd be surprised at how many teams don't do full team dinners for every road playoff game.
The most different thing about this team is how any simple passing comment gets blown up into a massive story and controversy.

 

[andora]

I think you'd be surprised at how many teams don't do full team dinners for every road playoff game.
The most different thing about this team is how any simple passing comment gets blown up into a massive story and controversy.

Dont care about dinners.. but this team doesnt play as a tight group all for one as we are conventionally used to

 

[Captain Crunch]

Taking a normal contract like everybody else wouldn't mean they're not committed to winning, and it has no impact on trading Nylander. Both can and should be kept.

The statement was about what Keefe had seen since he started here. So it was referring to the 2020, 2021, and 2022 playoff series. 2020 and 2021 was the pandemic, so we're really talking about them not having team dinners for 3 road games in 2022. I don't recall Schenn being "appalled". I remember him mentioning that he had found a couple team dinners helpful in the past. But teams and people are different. This is such an arbitrary way to evaluate the closeness of a group, or culture. This doesn't even mean that most players didn't eat together. It could just be as simple as some people having different food preferences/dietary requirements, or different pre-game preparations and rituals.

Maybe you remember this:

And maybe there’s a secret nod to be given to a pair of team dinners on the town in Tampa, an initiative spearheaded in large part by defenceman Luke Schenn. Upon arriving in Toronto for his second go-round with the Maple Leafs ahead of the March 3 trade deadline, Schenn said he was somewhat appalled to hear how, in previous Toronto playoff runs, the Maple Leafs had mostly stuck to what he considered a regrettable road trip habit.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Taking a normal contract like everybody else wouldn't mean they're not committed to winning, and it has no impact on trading Nylander. Both can and should be kept.

The statement was about what Keefe had seen since he started here. So it was referring to the 2020, 2021, and 2022 playoff series. 2020 and 2021 was the pandemic, so we're really talking about them not having team dinners for 3 road games in 2022. I don't recall Schenn being "appalled". I remember him mentioning that he had found a couple team dinners helpful in the past. But teams and people are different. This is such an arbitrary way to evaluate the closeness of a group, or culture. This doesn't even mean that most players didn't eat together. It could just be as simple as some people having different food preferences/dietary requirements, or different pre-game preparations and rituals.

It would be great to keep all of them, if they all weren’t so greedy.

 

[Sypher04]

Maybe you remember this:

And maybe there’s a secret nod to be given to a pair of team dinners on the town in Tampa, an initiative spearheaded in large part by defenceman Luke Schenn. Upon arriving in Toronto for his second go-round with the Maple Leafs ahead of the March 3 trade deadline, Schenn said he was somewhat appalled to hear how, in previous Toronto playoff runs, the Maple Leafs had mostly stuck to what he considered a regrettable road trip habit.

Feel pretty confident he said nothing of the sort. Feschuk interjecting his opinion I’m sure

 

[Captain Crunch]

Feel pretty confident he said nothing of the sort. Feschuk interjecting his opinion I’m sure

Wow, you’re one of those insiders Dekes was talking about. Lol

 

[LeafSteel]

Can we all just give it a rest for 24 hours in here?

Leafs Nation is heartbroken and reeling, and we just lost a wonderful young man.

Everything else seems so inconsequential and petty right now.

Can we just have a 1 day cease fire and come together to mourn this young man?

Sometimes it really sucks in here…

 

[Captain Crunch]

Can we all just give it a rest for 24 hours in here?

Leafs Nation is heartbroken and reeling, and we just lost a wonderful young man.

Everything else seems so inconsequential and petty right now.

Can we just have a 1 day cease fire and come together to mourn this young man?

Sometimes it really sucks in here…

You’re absolutely right! My apologies.
That seemed to come out of nowhere. Hoping the healing starts soon for his family.

 

[Torontonian]

Leaders lead in many different ways, and other players follow their example. I don’t see that with this team, and maybe that’s just me. It really struck me odd these past playoffs when Schenn had the team go out together for a team meal while on the road during the Tampa series, something that apparently hadn’t been done before with this core group. Maybe that’s the way it is with most teams nowadays, I don’t know. But to me, it seems like another way that this team is not really a “team”. You have the superstars who look out for themselves by making sure they get all that they “deserve” (your words), and the “foot soldiers” who are expected to do all the “grunt work”.

Can't speak for previous years as nothing was said, but according to some insiders after Toronto was eliminated, they hinted at there being a rift in the dressing room because of the fact it's always been about the Core 4 and not about the team. (Believe it was said on the Leaf Report podcast).

Treliving alluded to it as well when he first hired about it not being about the Core 4, but about the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Which kind of makes sense why Toronto brought in Reaves to try to bring the team together, it's really odd for a team on the road not to go for dinner IMO, I think you need to be willing to lay it all on the line for each other if you want to win. The Maple Leafs to this date have not shown they are willing to lay it on the line for each other. (As shown with no show efforts in elimination games and playoff games, and not starting on time a majority of the time).

 

[andora]

Can't speak for previous years as nothing was said, but according to some insiders after Toronto was eliminated, they hinted at there being a rift in the dressing room because of the fact it's always been about the Core 4 and not about the team. (Believe it was said on the Leaf Report podcast).

Treliving alluded to it as well when he first hired about it not being about the Core 4, but about the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Which kind of makes sense why Toronto brought in Reaves to try to bring the team together, it's really odd for a team on the road not to go for dinner IMO, I think you need to be willing to lay it all on the line for each other if you want to win. The Maple Leafs to this date have not shown they are willing to lay it on the line for each other. (As shown with no show efforts in elimination games and playoff games, and not starting on time a majority of the time).

Agree with what you're saying but it's even the little things more so that show not laying it on the line. I mean objectively how inspiring can a team be with literally no zero physical pushback consistently. Now I should correct myself before certain ones see this and reference Riley throwing punches or some other random act of grit, but two or three things over years just goes to show you