Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Leafs87]

I would be really pleased with Peeke.

Been wanting him for at least 2 seasons and would be an excellent RHD addition.

Honestly, would make me more inclined to move on from Brodie while he still has good value and frees up $5m in cap space, who is going to be a UFA after this season.

Rielly-Peeke
McCabe-Klingberg
Gio-Liljegren
Timmins

Would like to see LHD get stronger but our RHD, with Niemala developing on the Marlie’s this year looks better than it has in years.

Agreed

And I like the draw up aside from Gio being a regular. Based on last year he can’t be playing every night. By the end of the playoffs he was totally out of gas.

 

[Fogelhund]

Agreed

And I like the draw up aside from Gio being a regular. Based on last year he can’t be playing every night. By the end of the playoffs he was totally out of gas.

Certainly he can’t be put in a position where he gets huge minutes, due to injuries on the blue line last year. I think that stretch of heavy minutes did more damage, than being a regular.

 

[TMLAM34]

Certainly he can’t be put in a position where he gets huge minutes, due to injuries on the blue line last year. I think that stretch of heavy minutes did more damage, than being a regular.

Crazy thing is, he actually played really good when we needed him to play those big minutes. But come playoff time he was completely gassed.

 

[rocketman588]

I'm worried about both him and Brodie. They've both put in a lot of tough mins the last few years

 

[TMLAM34]

I'm worried about both him and Brodie. They've both put in a lot of tough mins the last few years

If you can reduce Brodies minutes, I don’t think there will be an issue. Thing is as our blueline stands right now, you can’t really lower his minutes.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Anyone you guys are interested in PTOing?

I wouldn't mind giving Mason Shaw a PTO if he's healthy, as well as Simon Benoit.

More competition at camp, the better.

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From the European Side, I wouldn't mind taking a look at:

Marcus Sylvegard - A speedy winger, who loves board battles and plays with an edge. Had a breakout season last year. Could be a nice bottom 6 piece.
Linus Oberg - A fiesty puck battler, who gives it 100% every shift. Another guy I feel who could make a good bottom 6 forward.

A vet bottom 6C

It's the only reported supposedly vetoed trade I found when looking it up after people complained about Shanahan doing it. Think Dreger and Friedman said it.

One untrustworthy media guy threw out a rumour that a Hagel deal was blocked by Shanahan. Then some people made a bunch of assumptions about what happened. Then Friedman came out and said that the original rumour was nonsense and it was never vetoed because Knies was a non starter for Dubas too (which is pretty obvious to anybody who has listened to Dubas talk about Knies). Then everybody seemed to conveniently forget that and continue spreading false information as fact.

This is how I remember it as well.

 

[Mitch nylander]

A vet bottom 6C


This is how I remember it as well.

Paul Stastny?

 

[LaPlante94]

So there is not even one known instance of Shanahan blocking a trade then? Seems like both edges of the fringe is spreading false information as fact….

Not really. Think Dreger even said it didn't even get to the point of Fleury getting asked to waive his NMC for the trade and Dubas I think not liking the futures. So unless there's another trade that was vetoed this is the only reported one and idk why Shanahan gets blamed for something like this.

 

[Dreakmur]

Not really. Think Dreger even said it didn't even get to the point of Fleury getting asked to waive his NMC for the trade and Dubas I think not liking the futures. So unless there's another trade that was vetoed this is the only reported one and idk why Shanahan gets blamed for something like this.

There’s definitely posters here claiming Shanahan vetoed trades.

 

[HomelessPepper]

There’s definitely posters here claiming Shanahan vetoed trades.

I can't comment about posters, but there were, at least supposedly, insiders saying that Shanahan vetoed trades and such.

For reference: Report: Ex-Leafs GM Kyle Dubas was 'at odds' with Brendan Shanahan, had trades blocked

Multiple sources confirmed to The Athletic a pattern of issues between Shanahan and Dubas that developed over several seasons, including the Maple Leafs president stepping in and blocking transactions as well as dictating other moves the former GM didn’t always agree with.

Whether it's believable or accurate...

Edit: just to be clear, I'm not saying this is proof, I'm not saying this is accurate, just that this is likely the source of these kinds of comments

 

[BayStBullies]

I can't comment about posters, but there were, at least supposedly, insiders saying that Shanahan vetoed trades and such.

For reference: Report: Ex-Leafs GM Kyle Dubas was 'at odds' with Brendan Shanahan, had trades blocked



Whether it's believable or accurate...

Edit: just to be clear, I'm not saying this is proof, I'm not saying this is accurate, just that this is likely the source of these kinds of comments

The same insiders who have been fluffing Dubas endlessly. They've failed at holding a position of neutrality in their reporting.

 

[Menzinger]

Where is this coming from that shanny vetoed that? Pretty sure it’s widely accepted that the Knies mrazek deal was what Kyle Davidson wanted from Toronto and Toronto said no way.

It's just speculation. It was reported that Dubas had attempted to make 1-2 trades that allegedly got nixed by Shanny and then folks just seemed to assume it was the Hagel trade because that was one of the few deals we know tangibly that the Leafs were linked to

 

[rocketman588]

It's just speculation. It was reported that Dubas had attempted to make 1-2 trades that allegedly got nixed by Shanny and then folks just seemed to assume it was the Hagel trade because that was one of the few deals we know tangibly that the Leafs were linked to

It's because CJ and Adam Wyld directly said the Hagel trade

Adam said "wouldn't it have been nice to have had Hagel" even. So yeah the one he "vetoed" was appearently that.

I mean it he was trying to get Karlsson u assume that was vetoed as well because it was/still is a stupid idea for our team

 

[IPS]

Based on what Friedman has described, it sounded more like it was just an inefficient process that was the problem. Dubas would initiate trade talks, then he would have to sell it to Shanny, who would then have to sell it to the board, who would then deliberate. And it was the time involved plus the potential for misunderstanding in the game of telephone, which could result in trades passing them by, rather than anyone vetoing anything.

Looks like the story has already changed since the beginning.

 

[Stephen]

Based on what Friedman has described, it sounded more like it was just an inefficient process that was the problem. Dubas would initiate trade talks, then he would have to sell it to Shanny, who would then have to sell it to the board, who would then deliberate. And it was the time involved plus the potential for misunderstanding in the game of telephone, which could result in trades passing them by, rather than anyone vetoing anything.

Oversight for a GM not yet 40 on his first NHL job doesn't really sound like the most egregious thing in the world.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Oversight for a GM not yet 40 on his first NHL job doesn't really sound like the most egregious thing in the world.

Why doesn’t Shanny just cut the middleman and do it himself? What does he actually.. *do* on a day to day basis that justifies being the highest paid exec in the league?

Either delegate fully to someone you trust, if you don’t trust them get someone who you do trust or just do the job yourself. I’m sure he can find the time to make a few trade calls in between his private jets from Toronto to NYC.

Making the big decisions using a puppet GM as a proxy to take the blame for you if things go south is pretty weak leadership.

 

[Stephen]

Why doesn’t Shanny just cut the middleman and do it himself? What does he actually.. *do* on a day to day basis that justifies being the highest paid exec in the league?

Either delegate fully to someone you trust, if you don’t trust them get someone who you do trust or just do the job yourself. I’m sure he can find the time to make a few trade calls in between his private jets from Toronto to NYC.

Making the big decisions using a puppet GM as a proxy to take the blame for you if things go south is pretty weak leadership.

A President and General Manager collaboration seems to be fairly common in the sporting world this day and age.

Masai and Bobby Webster with the Raptors, Shapiro and Atkins with the Blue Jays, Shanahan and Junior Partner with the Leafs. Elsewhere in hockey, off the top of my head and not a complete list, you have Hughes and Gorton in Montreal. Cam Neely and Don Sweeney in Boston. Jim Rutherford and Patrik Allvin in Vancouver. In Philadelphia there's Keith Jones as president and Daniel Briere as GM. Joe Sakic is president in Colorado and Chris MacFarlane is GM. In Pittsburgh you had Brian Burke and Ron Hextall before they were fired and replaced with Dubas as President, who wanted Pridham in a GM role...

So the idea of a president in leadership (with unknown hockey control, oversight and review) and a general manager that does the front man work isn't really all that special. I suppose the only real problem we have is the junior guy got too big for his britches and had to make a move on the president under a myriad of pretenses like work life balance, reporting structure and remuneration.

 

[LeafChief]

Were quoting Adam Wylde as a source in here now lmao

 

[Nylanderthal]

It's because CJ and Adam Wyld directly said the Hagel trade

Adam said "wouldn't it have been nice to have had Hagel" even. So yeah the one he "vetoed" was appearently that.

I mean it he was trying to get Karlsson u assume that was vetoed as well because it was/still is a stupid idea for our team

Marilyn Dennis’ son is now an insider?

 

[Legion34]

Oversight for a GM not yet 40 on his first NHL job doesn't really sound like the most egregious thing in the world.

Sure except shanny had 0 experience right and he became president. Wasn’t he a player safety guy? I think he was one of the ones who made the cap a reality and became one of bettmans guys from that. He didn’t work up scouting etc

Marilyn Dennis’ son is now an insider?

I mean yes? He is CJs boss and Allan Walsh’s boss/partner too.

So yes. He owns the network

 

[Dekes For Days]

There is no doubt whatsoever that they are among the best players in the league, but they have not turned out to be clutch players who can put the team on their backs and win playoff rounds, or win crucial games in the playoffs.

"Clutchness" is in most cases largely just a post-occurrence rationalization of how things happen to play out, and not an inherent quality of an individual. They've also had plenty of clutch moments and putting the team on their back moments. They just get forgotten when the team doesn't win the series.

And as far as the percentage of cap space the three of them are taking up (not counting Nylander’s), that makes it difficult, if not impossible, to balance out the team.

Except it doesn't. We've had a really balanced team in offense and defense for years, and while goaltending hasn't always been there, we've had pretty average spending on our goaltending, and goaltending isn't something you can just throw money at to fix.

Can you honestly say our defence, as it now stands, is good enough to help carry this team through the playoff rounds? Do we have 4 legitimate top 4 dmen?

Yes, our defense has been good enough to win, and we have had 4 legitimate top 4 defensemen. Whether we have that now depends on if/how Klingberg rebounds, and Liljegren's development, but that's more a result of Treliving making a questionable signing decision and transferring more money from defense to forward than ever before, not an inability to get that due to cap space.

And look at our bottom 6. Is there a shutdown line? I don’t see one.

We've had an effective shutdown line and a pretty quality bottom six for years. Our lack of "shutdown line" now was a decision - opting for players like Reaves that suck and fit nowhere, getting bad defensive forwards, and loading up our top six - not a necessity due to cap. Teams don't really win off high paid bottom sixes. They usually win off filling those spots with cheap players and ELCs that perform beyond their pay.

 

[justashadowof]

Sure except shanny had 0 experience right and he became president. Wasn’t he a player safety guy? I think he was one of the ones who made the cap a reality and became one of bettmans guys from that. He didn’t work up scouting etc

Not picking on this post in particular but this argument in general. Brendan Shanahan has been in pro hockey his entire adult life. He has been a star player and a leader for his entire hockey playing career. He has experienced a lot to become highly knowledgable regarding the game and have the ability to form high level opinions regarding the constitution of an NHL team. Whether he does or doesn't actually have this superior knowledge is another story.

 

[Legion34]

Not picking on this post in particular but this argument in general. Brendan Shanahan has been in pro hockey his entire adult life. He has been a star player and a leader for his entire hockey playing career. He has experienced a lot to become highly knowledgable regarding the game and have the ability to form high level opinions regarding the constitution of an NHL team. Whether he does or doesn't actually have this superior knowledge is another story.

Sure. But so have many others. And they to my knowledge have not went straight from zero expletive to president? Can you name one? I can’t

Wayne Gretzky was pretty good at hockey and was a terrible coach.

Skills/knowledge don’t always translate to specific roles without experience.

Especially since he appears to have a hand in gm roles

 

[Captain Crunch]

"Clutchness" is in most cases largely just a post-occurrence rationalization of how things happen to play out, and not an inherent quality of an individual. They've also had plenty of clutch moments and putting the team on their back moments. They just get forgotten when the team doesn't win the series.

Except it doesn't. We've had a really balanced team in offense and defense for years, and while goaltending hasn't always been there, we've had pretty average spending on our goaltending, and goaltending isn't something you can just throw money at to fix.

Yes, our defense has been good enough to win, and we have had 4 legitimate top 4 defensemen. Whether we have that now depends on if/how Klingberg rebounds, and Liljegren's development, but that's more a result of Treliving making a questionable signing decision and transferring more money from defense to forward than ever before, not an inability to get that due to cap space.

We've had an effective shutdown line and a pretty quality bottom six for years. Our lack of "shutdown line" now was a decision - opting for players like Reaves that suck and fit nowhere, getting bad defensive forwards, and loading up our top six - not a necessity due to cap. Teams don't really win off high paid bottom sixes. They usually win off filling those spots with cheap players and ELCs that perform beyond their pay.

Always an excuse, Dekes. Bottom line is ONE playoff round win in 5 years with this core, plus two more without Tavares. Those results speak volumes! Too bad Matthews and Marner were only looking after themselves when they signed those contracts. It will probably be the same this time around. Does this sound familiar: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. But hey, even if they continue to be unable to get it done come playoffs, there will always be an excuse!

 

[The Nic]

Paul Stastny?

Why would you want to block Holmberg? We do need cheap players... but having some waiver exempt players on the roster is a good thing too.

Sure. But so have many others. And they to my knowledge have not went straight from zero expletive to president? Can you name one? I can’t

Wayne Gretzky was pretty good at hockey and was a terrible coach.

Skills/knowledge don’t always translate to specific roles without experience.

Especially since he appears to have a hand in gm roles

Oh poor poor Kyle Dubas... Shanahan was mean to him!