Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Stephen]

It's just speculation. It was reported that Dubas had attempted to make 1-2 trades that allegedly got nixed by Shanny and then folks just seemed to assume it was the Hagel trade because that was one of the few deals we know tangibly that the Leafs were linked to

Considering the high volume of moves Dubas has made over the years and number of high picks thrown out the window and virtual turnover of everything not Big 4 and reckless goalie acquisitions in succession, I'm highly skeptical that those above Dubas were gumming up the process and nixing productive trades left right and center. Not that there would have been anything wrong with management above Dubas providing input.

Just sounds like part of the Dubas maneuvering to take Shanahan's job.

 

[LeafEgo]

Yes, our defense has been good enough to win, and we have had 4 legitimate top 4 defensemen. Whether we have that now depends on if/how Klingberg rebounds, and Liljegren's development, but that's more a result of Treliving making a questionable signing decision and transferring more money from defense to forward than ever before, not an inability to get that due to cap space.

We have shifted resources from defence to forwards in an attempt to get our forward support cast closer to sufficient. The totality of the teams support cast remains deficient now as it was before as a result of the core 4 cap imbalance - just with a different arrangement.

Perhaps it's the best of bad options if it helps activate our superpower (the core 4) when it counts with actual top 6 LW's.

 

[weems]

It'd be awesome if Tavares still had one huge season left in him similar to what we just saw from Karlsson especially considering most people thought he was washed.

We really need him to be good because if he further declines, our Center position starts to look very questionable.

 

[Legion34]

Why would you want to block Holmberg? We do need cheap players... but having some waiver exempt players on the roster is a good thing too.


Oh poor poor Kyle Dubas... Shanahan was mean to him!

What?
I don’t care about dubas at all. He left. He had a back door deal with pit thar was rumoured for months. He then tried a power play. He had to go.

But still. I have no issues with dubas having a sounding board. I just don’t see why shanny appointed himsedl
With no experience

 

[Stephen]

What?
I don’t care about dubas at all. He left. He had a back door deal with pit thar was rumoured for months. He then tried a power play. He had to go.

But still. I have no issues with dubas having a sounding board. I just don’t see why shanny appointed himsedl
With no experience

Shanahan has been in his president role with the Toronto Maple Leafs since 2014 and presided over the most successful tear down, rebuild and regular season version of this team since expansion, so characterizing him as having no experience in 2023 would be outdated information.

 

[BertCorbeau]

It'd be awesome if Tavares still had one huge season left in him similar to what we just saw from Karlsson especially considering most people thought he was washed.

We really need him to be good because if he further declines, our Center position starts to look very questionable.

Hope so but Tavares' skating makes me worry about these last two years .. he produced last year but was reliant on the PP which could be hard to sustain.

 

[justashadowof]

Sure. But so have many others. And they to my knowledge have not went straight from zero expletive to president? Can you name one? I can’t

Wayne Gretzky was pretty good at hockey and was a terrible coach.

Skills/knowledge don’t always translate to specific roles without experience.

Especially since he appears to have a hand in gm roles

Joe Sakic basically did this a few years after retirement with not even league office experience, not quite president but high in the Avs' front office. Ken Dryden became president of the the Leafs after being no where in the hockey world for close to 15 years. Steve Yzerman was named a VP in Detroit immediately following his retirement.

 

[LeafChief]

It'd be awesome if Tavares still had one huge season left in him similar to what we just saw from Karlsson especially considering most people thought he was washed.

We really need him to be good because if he further declines, our Center position starts to look very questionable.

Tavares production since joining the Leafs (including this most recent season) has been exactly what it was with the Islanders before he signed with us.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Bottom line is ONE playoff round win in 5 years with this core, plus two more without Tavares. Those results speak volumes!

Those outcomes don't say as much as some people want them to.

Too bad Matthews and Marner were only looking after themselves when they signed those contracts.

They looked out for themselves and the team as much as every other player.

Does this sound familiar: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

It sounds like a quote that gets wildly misunderstood in its application to hockey. It refers to a system where all inputs are fixed and unchanging and will always produce the exact same output. That is not hockey. In hockey, the inputs are constantly changing, and inputs that have existed in the system before constantly create different outputs.

We have shifted resources from defence to forwards in an attempt to get our forward support cast closer to sufficient.

Our forward group has been sufficient, and our bigger allocation hasn't really changed much in terms of quality.

 

[Rob Brown]

It'd be awesome if Tavares still had one huge season left in him similar to what we just saw from Karlsson especially considering most people thought he was washed.

We really need him to be good because if he further declines, our Center position starts to look very questionable.

Tavares has been pretty much PPG every season in Toronto (including this past season), while Karlsson had a stretch of pretty average/subpar seasons before he took off again this past season. Not exactly the same as Tavares still puts up points while Karlsson regressed in that department prior to last season.

 

[weems]

Tavares production since joining the Leafs (including this most recent season) has been exactly what it was with the Islanders before he signed with us.

I'm talking huge season like the 47 goal year he had when we first signed him.

Sure he still put strong offensive numbers last year but it was greatly propped up by huge PP point totals (39pp pts).

I don't think it's at all unfair to say his overall game and ability to drive offense 5v5 has started to slip.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The funny thing is, Tavares' 5v5 play hasn't even really dropped off much. He just picked up less points in some secondary "even strength" situations (empty net, goalie pulled, 4v4), and played a bit less.

 

[weems]

The funny thing is, Tavares' 5v5 play hasn't even really dropped off much. He just picked up less points in some secondary "even strength" situations (empty net, goalie pulled, 4v4), and played a bit less.

No?

I know you love these super advanced stats.

What do you make of such a poor ranking across the board?

 

[Rob Brown]

I'm talking huge season like the 47 goal year he had when we first signed him.

Sure he still put strong offensive numbers last year but it was greatly propped up by huge PP point totals (39pp pts).

I don't think it's at all unfair to say his overall game and ability to drive offense 5v5 has started to slip.

It's more that you compared him to Karlsson in that you hope for another huge, banger offensive season like Karlsson had after several years of poor production, since Tavares hasn't had a year of poor offensive production in Toronto.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No?
I know you love these super advanced stats.
View attachment 735738

No, I don't love WAR, GAR, and whatever SPAR is. Not sure where you got that idea. Also not sure what it has to do with my statement.
Tavares produced at pretty much the exact same rate at 5v5 in 2022-2023 as he did in 2021-2022. His underlying metrics didn't really drop off.
His points in non-5v5 "even strength" situations dropped, and he played a bit less.

 

[weems]

It's more that you compared him to Karlsson in that you hope for another huge, banger offensive season like Karlsson had after several years of poor production, since Tavares hasn't had a year of poor offensive production in Toronto.

No I was making the comparison as in a guy that had a huge MVP type season when noone really thought that was possible anymore.
I don't think many people actually believe Tavares is still capable of something like that but it would be very good for the Leafs if he was.

 

[weems]

No, I don't love WAR, GAR, and whatever SPAR is. Not sure where you got that idea. Also not sure what it has to do with my statement.
Tavares produced at pretty much the exact same rate at 5v5 in 2022-2023 as he did in 2021-2022. His underlying metrics didn't really drop off.
His points in non-5v5 "even strength" situations dropped, and he played a bit less.

Ok so for the record and future reference, You don't think these specific advanced metrics are very good or effective at telling a story?

Do you believe that Nylander became a better player last year? and if so, how much of his upped level had a positive effect on Tavares keeping his similar offensive output?

 

[Burnie97]

I'm talking huge season like the 47 goal year he had when we first signed him.

Sure he still put strong offensive numbers last year but it was greatly propped up by huge PP point totals (39pp pts).

I don't think it's at all unfair to say his overall game and ability to drive offense 5v5 has started to slip.

Still think he should play with Marner and they have Knies or Bertuzzi now too.

It'll be nice to see what this mix of guys can do.

Matthews and Nylander play pretty well together. Throw Bertuzzi with them... Knies with jt and Marner.

I know it's putting knies high ... so if not Domi. Offensively I feel their options are better this year.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Those outcomes don't say as much as some people want them to.

They looked out for themselves and the team as much as every other player.

It sounds like a quote that gets wildly misunderstood in its application to hockey. It refers to a system where all inputs are fixed and unchanging and will always produce the exact same output. That is not hockey. In hockey, the inputs are constantly changing, and inputs that have existed in the system before constantly create different outputs.

Our forward group has been sufficient, and our bigger allocation hasn't really changed much in terms of quality.

Or some people downplay them in order to back up their excuses.

Agree to disagree. They’re a very hard bunch to like because of their greed.

Keep the core, scratch and scrape for bargain bin support. That doesn’t sound like doing the same thing over and over? Well, I guess you’re entitled to your opinion, even though you’re wrong.

Yes, our forward group has indeed been sufficient (that is, in regards to very good regular seasons followed by extremely little playoff success, as in one playoff round win in 7 seasons, yes, that’s 5 with Tavares)!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ok so for the record and future reference, You don't think these specific advanced metrics are very good or effective at telling a story?
Do you believe that Nylander became a better player last year? and if so, how much of his upped level had a positive effect on Tavares keeping his similar offensive output?

Looking at his 2022-2023 SPAR is certainly not a good way to view the change in his 5v5 play, that's for sure.
We could discuss the impact that linemates may have had on his production level, but that's a very different discussion, and those linemates aren't changing.

Keep the core, scratch and scrape for bargain bin support. That doesn’t sound like doing the same thing over and over?

Keep the core and build around it is literally what every team does. A group of largely different players playing a non-static game at a different time against different opponents is not the same thing. The quote does not apply to hockey.

 

[weems]

Looking at his 2022-2023 SPAR is certainly not a good way to view the change in his 5v5 play, that's for sure.
We could discuss the impact that linemates may have had on his production level, but that's a very different discussion, and those linemates aren't changing.

I'd say it's very interesting that he's nowhere even close to Nylander in any of the three rankings.

My comment said his ability to "drive" offense 5v5, so if you acknowledge that Nylander took a step offensively, then both things can be true that yes he did produce around the same amount of offense but he also might not have been driving that offense nearly as much as previously. In theory, Nylander could take even another step forward while Tavares a little drop and his points per game or 5v5 could stay similar.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'd say it's very interesting that he's nowhere even close to Nylander in any of the three rankings.

I'd say it's more interesting that according to that, 58 games of Brodie was more valuable than a full season of Nylander. I wonder if you agree with that.

My comment said his ability to "drive" offense 5v5, so if you acknowledge that Nylander took a step offensively, then both things can be true that yes he did produce around the same amount of offense but he also might not have been driving that offense nearly as much as previously. In theory, Nylander could take even another step forward while Tavares a little drop and his points per game or 5v5 could stay similar.

My comment was more in reference to people who point to his "even strength" points ranking to misrepresent Tavares' 5v5 production. Nylander also played a half-season with Matthews, where he got to run wild with offense while Matthews did all of the heavy lifting on defense. Which kind of distorts what was actually happening when Tavares and Nylander were together. Maybe Tavares' play-driving has fallen off a bit. Maybe not. I haven't actually seen any evidence provided for that, and I'm not sure it's the huge deal some are making it out to be if production level of the line ends up the same.

 

[weems]

I'd say it's more interesting that according to that, 58 games of Brodie was more valuable than a full season of Nylander. I wonder if you agree with that.

My comment was more in reference to people who point to his "even strength" points ranking to misrepresent Tavares' 5v5 production. Nylander also played a half-season with Matthews, where he got to run wild with offense while Matthews did all of the heavy lifting on defense. Which kind of distorts what was actually happening when Tavares and Nylander were together. Maybe Tavares' play-driving has fallen off a bit. Maybe not. I haven't actually seen any evidence provided for that, and I'm not sure it's the huge deal some are making it out to be if production level of the line ends up the same.

No I don't agree with that about Brodie being more valuable and I'd be the first to admit I'm not some expert with these stats but I do think they bring value especially when it's basically ranking or tiering players for overall impact.

I think many Leaf fans would agree that Tavares's game did actually drop last year and that Nylander or Marner was the driving force when they played together.

Even if his play did somewhat decline, That's not saying he's not still a good player and good offensively.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Still think he should play with Marner and they have Knies or Bertuzzi now too.

It'll be nice to see what this mix of guys can do.

Matthews and Nylander play pretty well together. Throw Bertuzzi with them... Knies with jt and Marner.

I know it's putting knies high ... so if not Domi. Offensively I feel their options are better this year.

Bertuzzi-Tavares-Marner is the obvious fit imo, they play at the same pace and it opens up JT to shoot more with Bertuzzi taking over the net front role. Knies fits Matthews-Nylander better in terms of pace and an aggressive game on the boards forcing turnovers.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Looking at his 2022-2023 SPAR is certainly not a good way to view the change in his 5v5 play, that's for sure.
We could discuss the impact that linemates may have had on his production level, but that's a very different discussion, and those linemates aren't changing.

Keep the core and build around it is literally what every team does. A group of largely different players playing a non-static game at a different time against different opponents is not the same thing. The quote does not apply to hockey.

Except that our core are not clutch players.

And yes, bringing back the same group of core players that can’t carry this team in the playoffs, and having a group of supporting players that are unable to occasionally carry the team when needed, as opposed to making a substantial trade (meaning at least one of the core) to actually improve the weaker areas, that is indeed doing the same thing over and expecting different results.