Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Ziggdiezan]

Yep. The fact that he literally got suspended in the playoffs with the Avs says it all really

I'm a Kadri fan so I'm happy by the end things worked out for him and he got to raise the cup. But some of us do tend to look back on things with rose coloured glasses....

Biggest issue in retrospect wasn't so much the fact that they traded him, rather it was the return. Leafs should have targeted a single higher impact D man with term rather than try and do the 2 for 1 deal. The front office outsmarted themselves with the trade.

Agreed, although targeting a purely offensive sheltered defenseman as the main piece back for Kadri never really made sense from the get go. Couldn't play with Rielly as that pairing would get absolute smoked as Rielly prefers a more defensively inclided partner and couldn't play with Muzzin as that is the shutdown pairing. Never made sense and that's why he ended up on the third pairing and possibly shopped before a bunch of injuries to Rielly, Muzzin etc moved him up the lineup.

The value was alright but the fit was terrible

 

[Fogelhund]

Maybe we can criticize them for holding onto Kadri too long? Maybe he should have been traded as soon as we signed Tavares? Or at least started shopping him then. It was already well established that he was an internal problem, but he hadn't had the second in a row playoff suspension as of yet. Perhaps without that second playoff suspension, he would have been easier to move, in more demand, and we could have obtained that better return?

The year before we moved him, he had a 55 point campaign. Coming off that campaign, higher points... maybe other teams see that suspension as a fluke...and we get a better return... instead, we hold onto him, his production as a 3C drops to 44 points, his value is dropped, and then further dropped due to the second playoff suspension.

The mistake perhaps wasn't moving him, as much as moving him too late.


Just a thought.

 

[justashadowof]

The one thing with Barrie is that it was less of a hard proven thing that he couldn't possibly contribute in a different role. He had only been in the one NHL organization. He had been the #1 PP quarterback for half a decade there. Lots of defensemen re-invent their game as their career moves forward. In hindsight, the Avs kind of knew that Barrie wasn't adaptable as they were willing to eat a big chunk of his final year but there was this perception that Barrie had simply just been pushed out with the arrival of Makar.

This is where pro scouting comes into play. Plus a rudimentary understanding of how NHL teams are structured. And in this case it would have hardly been rocket science to see the poor fit of an offensive defenseman who is a weak defender with a team that runs 1 defender on its power play. It's a simple understanding that there are roles on NHL teams that don't require redundancy and the 1st unit PP defenseman is one of those roles.

I'm holding out hope that Klingberg isn't the same sort of acquisition. I'm hoping that Klingberg with someone like McCabe is a reasonable even strength defensive pairing, better than Barrie was with his corner bailouts to heavy forechecking and awkward breakout decisions.

 

[hamzarocks]

That organization exists only for helping OV pass Gretzky’s record at this point. I believe their directive is to compete for the next maybe 3 or 4 years max and then they’ll blow it up once OV retires

They had the 8th OA pick this year i think

They are done competing even for a 1st round exit now

Your right that the next 2 years or so they will focus on OV getting his remaining 70ish goals

He should get those by game 60-65 of 2025

Maybe we can criticize them for holding onto Kadri too long? Maybe he should have been traded as soon as we signed Tavares? Or at least started shopping him then. It was already well established that he was an internal problem, but he hadn't had the second in a row playoff suspension as of yet. Perhaps without that second playoff suspension, he would have been easier to move, in more demand, and we could have obtained that better return?

The year before we moved him, he had a 55 point campaign. Coming off that campaign, higher points... maybe other teams see that suspension as a fluke...and we get a better return... instead, we hold onto him, his production as a 3C drops to 44 points, his value is dropped, and then further dropped due to the second playoff suspension.

The mistake perhaps wasn't moving him, as much as moving him too late.


Just a thought.

Naw bad take kadri had great value within the organization and outside the league

He was a guy who didnt play with elite talent mucb but was a good player

The internal problems didnt exist in 2018 or 2019

They were briefly talked about in 2014 or 2015 when he got suspended a game but after that when Lou came, there was no negative internal issues with kadri mentioned while he was a leaf.

Babcock relied heavily on kadri and he was one of the leaders on the team in 2017 and 2018 along with JVR, Bozak, Komo.

Using him as a 3C was what killed his impact and value. He should have played 1LW with Matthews witb nylander having a failed year.

Matthews gets more high end talent to play with and we have a stronger year from kadri. We likely can then deal him for a better deal (he should have gotten more than UFA barrie + kerfoot anyhow)

 

[IPS]

Yep. The fact that he literally got suspended in the playoffs with the Avs says it all really

I'm a Kadri fan so I'm happy by the end things worked out for him and he got to raise the cup. But some of us do tend to look back on things with rose coloured glasses....

Biggest issue in retrospect wasn't so much the fact that they traded him, rather it was the return. Leafs should have targeted a single higher impact D man with term rather than try and do the 2 for 1 deal. The front office outsmarted themselves with the trade.

Yeah good thing the Avs never traded him, might have botched their cup run. Smart move to keep him.

 

[LaPlante94]

He barely even played with Kessel in 2012-2013. His most common linemates were Macarthur and Kulemin,, and he had that production level because he had a crazy lucky OISH% in a shortened season where it didn't have a chance to normalize. He actually played with Kessel more in the next couple seasons, when he had his normal 50 point seasons. Kadri produced a certain way in 9 out of the past 10 seasons, and that is what he is. There is absolutely nothing about his situation in 2021-2022 that was meaningfully different from previous or future seasons, and there's absolutely nothing about his situation in 2021-2022 that can come close to causing a +50-point explosion.

We're talking about the impacts that teams that win cups have gotten from their second best center in those years.
You're focusing on the individuals, but that's not the point. The point is that every single cup winner had a better performance from their second best center than what Kadri could be relied on to consistently bring, meaning that he was not an "ideal cup caliber 2C" (which would mean consistently providing that level of impact), and it was reasonable to pursue an available upgrade that would make center a comparative strength instead of weakness.

In comparisons of the Kadri that was being decided on by Toronto and the worst performances of second best centers on cup winners in recent history, it's more like the special teams cancel out, and then Kadri still falls behind in 5v5 production, defensive play, and suspensions.

Just because you don't win the cup, it doesn't mean every decision you make is a failure, or that some specified alternative route would have been better.
And depth scoring struggles in the playoffs isn't about signing Tavares. It's more about what happened across the league and world after we signed Tavares, the offense-hindering situations we've experienced in the playoffs, the bad non-lottery drafting through our rebuild and rise (not to mention things like our highest drafted recent prospect getting cancer), and the anchors that were left to solve with internal assets. We still would have had to trade Kadri after his 2nd straight playoff suspension.

I'll just end this with this since it's not really going anywhere. You keep saying his career average is what he is and that other 2Cs offer more but their career averages aren't that much better or are worse and you just neglect from that and say that means nothing. So if that means nothing then whatever. To think Dubas time here wasn't a failure is just brown nosing to the next level tbh because 1st round exits with this core isn't acceptable this many times in a row and then that 1 time we do win a round we only win 1 game in round 2. Every team had to deal with the covid situation and the cap stuff, Dubas thought he could start a new trend of signing 3 guys over 11 million that's never been done before just because he thought/knew the cap was gonna go up. Everything you listed about why our depth scoring sucked and it not being because of the Tavares signing is bad GMing. All that stuff is his job and responsibility and Knies is pretty much the only 1 he drafted that has stepped in to the lineup and made an impact and it was his final season here and he only played in 3 games and then the rest playoff games. We're a cup contending team so we're gonna be drafting late and we traded them all away, 1 of them was because of an awful FA signing 1 year before. We're not gonna get into the Dubas tenure here and how that was a failure because that'll probably go on just as long as this did which was a waste of time.

 

[Fogelhund]

Naw bad take kadri had great value within the organization and outside the league

He was a guy who didnt play with elite talent mucb but was a good player

The internal problems didnt exist in 2018 or 2019

They were briefly talked about in 2014 or 2015 when he got suspended a game but after that when Lou came, there was no negative internal issues with kadri mentioned while he was a leaf.

Babcock relied heavily on kadri and he was one of the leaders on the team in 2017 and 2018 along with JVR, Bozak, Komo.

Using him as a 3C was what killed his impact and value. He should have played 1LW with Matthews witb nylander having a failed year.

Matthews gets more high end talent to play with and we have a stronger year from kadri. We likely can then deal him for a better deal (he should have gotten more than UFA barrie + kerfoot anyhow)

Believe what you want. Bottom line, he was so valued internally, that he was traded away...predictably at that. So much value in the league... that he ended up in Colorado for peanuts. Kadri killed his own value... But, if Ostrich gotta ostrich, have away.

 

[IPS]

Believe what you want. Bottom line, he was so valued internally, that he was traded away...predictably at that. So much value in the league... that he ended up in Colorado for peanuts. Kadri killed his own value... But, if Ostrich gotta ostrich, have away.

For peanuts? Most people thought toronto won the trade.

 

[Kurtz]

For peanuts? Most people thought toronto won the trade.

This begs the question - should a player for player(s) trade be judged the moment that it happens, or should judgement be reserved until we see how the players preform in their new setting?

At the time the trade was made, it did look like fair value, but the moment we saw Barrie and Kerfoot play I think everyone realized how badly we'd been had.

 

[Kiwi]

Wilson re-signed to a 7 year contract until age 37. Risky.

Jesus, that's a bad idea and has the potential to age like warm milk

On the Kadri thing
Good dude but he couldn't control himself when we needed him

Simple as that, the fact we botched the trade doesn't make the reasons he had to go any less valid

 

[Buds17]

This begs the question - should a player for player(s) trade be judged the moment that it happens, or should judgement be reserved until we see how the players preform in their new setting?

At the time the trade was made, it did look like fair value, but the moment we saw Barrie and Kerfoot play I think everyone realized how badly we'd been had.

Proper judgement on trades should typically occur with time IMO. For however one feels about the trade as it actually went down, I was at least happier with what materialized (Kadri and Rosen for Kerfoot and Barrie) more than I would have been for the trade that could've happened (Kadri and Brown for Brodie and Jankowski).

 

[ACC1224]

This begs the question - should a player for player(s) trade be judged the moment that it happens, or should judgement be reserved until we see how the players preform in their new setting?

At the time the trade was made, it did look like fair value, but the moment we saw Barrie and Kerfoot play I think everyone realized how badly we'd been had.

It should be judged every day. All day every day.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You keep saying his career average is what he is and that other 2Cs offer more but their career averages aren't that much better or are worse and you just neglect from that and say that means nothing. So if that means nothing then whatever. To think Dubas time here wasn't a failure is just brown nosing to the next level tbh because 1st round exits with this core isn't acceptable this many times in a row and then that 1 time we do win a round we only win 1 game in round 2. Every team had to deal with the covid situation and the cap stuff, Dubas thought he could start a new trend of signing 3 guys over 11 million that's never been done before just because he thought/knew the cap was gonna go up. Everything you listed about why our depth scoring sucked and it not being because of the Tavares signing is bad GMing.

I said what he's been in 9 of the last 10 seasons is what he is, and the only thing I've said about other 2Cs is that teams that have won have required better from their 2nd best centers to win than what Kadri consistently provided (when he was even there, and not suspended). With that in mind, it was reasonable to pursue an available upgrade that could be trusted to be there, could cover a lot of holes, and could turn a weakness (that had to be immediately addressed one way or another because we only had 2 NHL caliber Cs in the entire organization) into a strength.

Every team had to deal with Covid, but teams felt very different impacts from Covid based on their unique situation. The timing of our biggest contracts coming due relative to Covid and being a competitive team that didn't have much internal build up meant that we were amoung the teams most negatively affected. Every team and GM was operating with the understanding that the cap would rise, because that's what the cap had always done over time, and that's what literally every financial projection said, especially with revenue sources about to be increased and added. And it would have risen by quite a bit, if not for a once-in-a-century global pandemic that shut down the league, caused a billion+ dollar player debt, and temporarily changed the cap formula below 50%. None of us would be here talking about this if not for that.

As for the referenced things that contributed to our depth being what it was? That's not bad GMing. A global pandemic hitting isn't determined by a GM. The teams and situations you face/experience in the playoffs and how much they benefit production (which is why people think our above average depth was worse than it actually was) isn't determined by the GM. The drafting before a GM takes over (when our internal depth over the past half-decade would have been from, since it takes time to go from drafting to meaningful NHL depth) isn't the fault of the GM that takes over. Someone getting cancer isn't the fault of the GM. The anchors that are left to a GM to deal with aren't their fault. You can criticize the actual choices we made for our depth all you want, but the fact is that most teams that win aren't actually relying on or excelling in their depth because of an expensive bottom six.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Jesus, that's a bad idea and has the potential to age like warm milk

Yeah, I was originally thinking that they'd be in a rebuild anyway, but quite frankly, they're kind of entering a rebuild now whether they want to or not, and they currently have another 8 years of Wilson, so depending on how their rebuild goes, it's very possible that that contract stretches into when they want to start being competitive again.
Maybe their hope is LTIR, because he's already struggling to stay healthy.

 

[Legion34]

Proper judgement on trades should typically occur with time IMO. For however one feels about the trade as it actually went down, I was at least happier with what materialized (Kadri and Rosen for Kerfoot and Barrie) more than I would have been for the trade that could've happened (Kadri and Brown for Brodie and Jankowski).

I don’t think that’s how it was. The idea was somehow that. The leafs were going to trade for Brodie and get one of the jets C…. Lowry/coop/Appleton or something. I don’t remember the details but it was convoluted and sounded unrealistic

 

[LeafSteel]

It should be judged every day. All day every day.

……… and argued to infinity and beyond.

 

[ULF_55]

It should be judged every day. All day every day.

I do think a 75 year limit should be applied.

Red Wings probably regret the Red Kelly deal.

 

[Buds17]

I don’t think that’s how it was. The idea was somehow that. The leafs were going to trade for Brodie and get one of the jets C…. Lowry/coop/Appleton or something. I don’t remember the details but it was convoluted and sounded unrealistic

Fair enough.

I simply was mentioning the trade that Kadri reportedly vetoed.

 

[Magic Man]

Dubas landed Karlsson.

Seems to be a significant enough addition that it should push them back into the top mix of contenders in the conference. Still each passing year could be the year one of their top players finally takes a significant step back. But, in the short term the Penguins have solidified themselves as a threat as it looked like they may take a step back.

 

[hamzarocks]

Dubas landed Karlsson.

Seems to be a significant enough addition that it should push them back into the top mix of contenders in the conference. Still each passing year could be the year one of their top players finally takes a significant step back. But, in the short term the Penguins have solidified themselves as a threat as it looked like they may take a step back.

They will have to be extremely healthy next year again in addition to EK65 not dropping more than 25% of what he was this year to be contenders

Crosby, malkin both playing 82 games again is really unlikely if they both miss 10-20 games in the year might be a tough spot to make the playoffs

Letang and EK65 also have had tpugh inkury history.

They will need a lot of luck on their side, but if they stay healthy they are a team that can make a run as long as Jarry doesnt choke again

 

[Torontonian]

Dubas landed Karlsson.

Seems to be a significant enough addition that it should push them back into the top mix of contenders in the conference. Still each passing year could be the year one of their top players finally takes a significant step back. But, in the short term the Penguins have solidified themselves as a threat as it looked like they may take a step back.

For a year or two maybe. Pittsburgh is in such a weird spot, they go for it now but then need to rebuild in about 2-3 years. Toronto couldn't risk trading for Karlsson like how Pittsburgh could.

Awfully bold major first move by Dubas as President/GM.

 

[Sypher04]

I haven’t seen the details yet, but dependent on cost and retention seems like a great move for the Pens right now and I thought they always made the most sense for Karlsson trade. You’ve got a few years left of Malkin, Crosby and Letang and then all 3 are retiring. You’re going for it and Karlsson is about as impact of a player as you can get.

 

[Sypher04]

Is there no retention? The deal breakdown I saw didn’t include any retention details? That seems unlikely.

That said Petry & Granlund off the Pens cap is huge

 

[Apex Predator]

Bold move by the pens. On paper penguins look goood but we’ll see how this plays out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is there no retention?

1.5m retained. 10m cap hit. Pittsburgh also dumped a bunch of garbage.