Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Dekes For Days]

His being a superior player to Holl was quickly confirmed, in alignment with what seemed like consensus at the expansion draft. Don't you remember that?

The only consensus at the expansion draft was 30 different teams acknowledging that he wasn't worth more than a middle-tier prospect and a 7th at the time, or worth protecting over far worse players than what we protected. Many people understood why Holl was more important to our team at the time than another middle-tier winger, and that protecting our top tier team from the expansion draft for the cost of Hallander + 7th was an overall good outcome, regardless of your personal feelings about each sub-decision.

The Avs, like the Bolts, got too good for the cap and had to shed an important but too costly player. They obviously didn't want to lose him

Didn't seem to have any trouble signing Nichuskin to a similar contract, or Lehkonen, Gerogiev, Manson, etc. to multi-million dollar contracts.
They chose pretty much everybody over Kadri.

What value do you think Kadri had for the Avs as a terrible 2C, for it to 'tank' to the tune of a 50M contract?

Nobody said he was a "terrible 2C". They said he was not an "ideal cup caliber 2C" outside of 2021-2022.
That 7m contract came after the next year in which he paced 100 points, and to get it, he had to sign in mid-August with a team he previously exercised a NTC to avoid.
The year before, when his value was tanked, he was a 4.5m pending UFA that paced for 20 goals, 50 points per 82 over the past 3 years, that was below average defensively, and that had just been suspended for the playoffs for the 3rd time in the past 4 years after a long history of discipline issues. What value do you think that has?

 

[LeafEgo]

Pitt knew they were never going to be able to afford McMann as he had arb rights as did Toronto.
McCann for the one season on the Leafs would have had a similar impact and stats and salary ask meaning we would have lost Holl/Kerfoot and McCann for nothing. Holl/Kerfoots impacts as a group would out weigh that of McCann who at that point had fair less playoff impact

I didn't think Holl and Kerfoot had any real value at all either together or separately. It was time to drop that salary and retool it as they eventually did. One season of McCann puts us on top, and we might have been able to afford him. We have a 5.5M LWer now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I didn't think Holl and Kerfoot had any real value at all either together or separately. It was time to drop that salary and retool it as they eventually did. One season of McCann puts us on top, and we might have been able to afford him. We have a 5.5M LWer now.

We moved on from Holl and Kerfoot because they were UFAs and we had gotten to a point where cheaper replacements had been developed. That wasn't the case in the 2021 offseason. The main reason we have a 5.5m LWer now is because our really good 5.5m defenseman got permanently injured, and the money was reallocated. It we wanted to have a 5.5m LWer back then, we would have just kept a better Hyman.

 

[TML Dynasty]

I still haven't got over trading Lanny McDonald. I should start a thread.

No need to start a new thread, apparently everything can go in this trade thread.

 

[LeafEgo]

The only consensus at the expansion draft was 30 different teams acknowledging that he wasn't worth more than a middle-tier prospect and a 7th at the time, or worth protecting over far worse players than what we protected. Many people understood why Holl was more important to our team at the time than another middle-tier winger, and that protecting our top tier team from the expansion draft for the cost of Hallander + 7th was an overall good outcome, regardless of your personal feelings about each sub-decision.

Didn't seem to have any trouble signing Nichuskin to a similar contract, or Lehkonen, Gerogiev, Manson, etc. to multi-million dollar contracts.
They chose pretty much everybody over Kadri.

Nobody said he was a "terrible 2C". They said he was not an "ideal cup caliber 2C" outside of 2021-2022.
That 7m contract came after the next year in which he paced 100 points, and to get it, he had to sign in mid-August with a team he previously exercised a NTC to avoid.
The year before, when his value was tanked, he was a 4.5m pending UFA that paced for 20 goals, 50 points per 82 over the past 3 years, that was below average defensively, and that had just been suspended for the playoffs for the 3rd time in the past 4 years after a long history of discipline issues. What value do you think that has?

I see it more as an overall neutral outcome, one good move one bad. Just a bit of a kick in the pants to immediately nullify one of very few good transactions.

All of those players are younger than Kadri. And who would have thought, prioritizing a goalie and a hulking defenceman over an upgrade at 2C.

Kadri was good value on the contract he had and now hes overpaid, but the point is Avs didn't move on because of his one ice performance. They got the best from him and then moved on when they had to. I suppose you're right that his value tanked per his updated market rate.

 

[Dekes For Days]

All of those players are younger than Kadri. And who would have thought, prioritizing a goalie and a hulking defenceman over an upgrade at 2C.
Kadri was good value on the contract he had and now hes overpaid, but the point is Avs didn't move on because of his one ice performance. They got the best from him and then moved on when they had to. I suppose you're right that his value tanked per his updated market rate.

Ironically, what they probably needed most last offseason was a 2C. They ended up resorting to signing Rodrigues to be their 2C in mid-September.
But they were fine re-signing everybody else and letting Kadri walk.

 

[LeafEgo]

Ironically, what they probably needed most last offseason was a 2C. They ended up resorting to signing Rodrigues to be their 2C in mid-September.
But they were fine re-signing everybody else and letting Kadri walk.

Similar to the Bolts who needed McD so they didn't have to go into the playoffs relying on the health of 3 defenceman which blew up on them. But you get thinned out eventually to stay cap compliant.

 

[notbias]

Oh my bad, we traded for him to expose him to protect Holl then. Y'all can keep telling yourselves whatever you want but the fact still remains we traded for this player knowing they'd take him over Kerfoot and to protect Holl.

McCann has 1 goal in 20 playoff games and 6 points in total.

I'd say it was a good move.

I didn't think Holl and Kerfoot had any real value at all either together or separately. It was time to drop that salary and retool it as they eventually did. One season of McCann puts us on top, and we might have been able to afford him. We have a 5.5M LWer now.

Playoff no show... Kerfoot is better than McCann

 

[LaPlante94]

It is pretty simple. If you perform one way for 9 out of the past 10 seasons, that is a better representation of what you are than the one outlier season where you inexplicably double your pace of production by 50 points.

If you actually look at who Kadri played with through that whole time, you would see that his quality of linemates did not significantly change throughout, and is not bad for a player of his caliber. You talk about the likes of Parenteau, who he spent 47 minutes with in his entire career. Lupul, Kessel, JVR are among his most played with 2013-2016. Over the next 3 years, he played a bunch with Marner, Nylander, and Marleau when he didn't suck yet. And then in Colorado, it was the likes of Burakovsky and Nichuskin, and he played with similar players a similar amount in all 3 years. This past year, he played with Huberdeau. There's nothing about 2021-2022 that can be tied to linemate quality. Situations can change production (and somebody like Stephenson did see a meaningful change, and personal growth), but there's absolutely nothing about Kadri's situation that meaningfully changed, and there's certainly no situation difference that could explain away his +50 point explosion. There is no indication that any of this is a result of covid (which everybody went through), or coaches, and none of Carlyle, Babcock, or Bednar are even defensively-oriented.

What do you mean others get a pass? Nobody is talking about others, and I even said I wouldn't classify all of the other as "ideal cup caliber 2Cs". The only relevance of the other players is what they did in their cup-winning season, to compare the kind of performance that winning teams get from their 2C to what Toronto was looking at from their second best center when they made their decision to upgrade on that ~55 point player that was below average defensively, mediocre at faceoffs, and constantly suspended. You can like that he's cheap if you want, but that doesn't change what he brings, which is the discussion.

The defensive ability of players is important and influences their overall impact, and that's true for all players. Nobody is taking away what Kadri has done. We're just also not going to dismiss and take away things that other players are better at than Kadri, or dismiss the difference in their overall impacts. Kadri was not an "ideal cup caliber 2C", and it was reasonable for Toronto to seek an upgrade on him for their 2nd best center.

You're kind of proving my point. The 2 seasons he got to play with Kessel he put up good seasons for his 1st 2 full time seasons as a Leaf. After that they put Bozak with Kessel and Kadri with a broken down Lupul who couldn't stay healthy and we start a rebuild. Then we completely tank a full season to get Matthews. Then he does well with all this new talent we tanked for being in the lineup. Then he gets moved to Colorado and covid ruins 2 seasons and then him and Nischuskin breakout the same season after Covid is done. Same thing can be said about Stephenson when he started to breakout. He got to play with Eichel and Stone and Kessel who wasn't the same player but was still someone who could put the puck in the net.

We're talking about players who have won cups being the 2C for those cup runs, so saying they aren't legit cup caliber 2Cs when they've already shown they are is either just having unrealistic expectations and thinking you need a 2nd 1C as your 2C, or you just don't want to give credit to players who maybe aren't as analytic friendly as you might like. If you want to say these guys aren't good enough to run their own line then fair, that's fair to say. If you can have a 2C that can be the glue for your wingers and they are on a team friendly deal then that's still an ideal cup caliber 2C in my book.

Alright, Cirelli is the better defender and PKer but Kadri is the better offensive player and PP guy. Pretty much cancels out don't you think? It's why we have someone like Kampf who pretty much just brings that defense and PK ability. You've been doing what you just said about taking away what others are better at and their impacts with Kadri this entire time which is what has carried this on for so long. I didn't have a problem with them looking to upgrade the position, especially with Tavares available. It's just we can now look back on it seeing that it has failed and what has screwed us has been depth scoring which we could've paid for keeping Kadri instead for those 3 years. The entire issue isn't even about moving on from Kadri, it's you saying he's not a cup caliber 2C when he has shown he is when he has talented wingers with him, especially a guy like Nischuskin who is probably one of the best 2 way wingers in the league.

 

[LaPlante94]

McCann has 1 goal in 20 playoff games and 6 points in total.

I'd say it was a good move.



Playoff no show... Kerfoot is better than McCann

Let me bring out a thing posters like you like to say about McCann going somewhere else. Y'all like to say he probably wouldn't produce like he has on Toronto like he has been on Seattle but playoff production is any different? It's pretty laughable you sit here and have convinced yourself that Kerfoot is better than McCann. It's cute that he still has a little fanbase. With all our playoff success I'd have to agree it was a good move. Oh wait...

 

[notbias]

Let me bring out a thing posters like you like to say about McCann going somewhere else. Y'all like to say he probably wouldn't produce like he has on Toronto like he has been on Seattle but playoff production is any different? It's pretty laughable you sit here and have convinced yourself that Kerfoot is better than McCann. It's cute that he still has a little fanbase. With all our playoff success I'd have to agree it was a good move. Oh wait...

I am just using the same argument everyone uses on this forum to bring down our stars... McCann is one of the worst playoff performs I've seen

You seem a little upset... this is just a discussion, no need to be.

 

[hamzarocks]

I am just using the same argument everyone uses on this forum to bring down our stars... McCann is one of the worst playoff performs I've seen

You seem a little upset... this is just a discussion, no need to be.

Ppl use playoffs to compare apples to apples usually

Tkachuk/rantanen/Kuch to Marner

Mackinnin/Draisaitl/Mcdavid/Eichel(though I'd argue he is not anywhere near Matthews yet after 3 BAD years in a row) to Matthews

Aho/Barzal/Connor to Nylander

Kerfoot was a low end 2rd line 35 pt player with little grit and low IQ.

He had one good playoff series vs MTL but was bad in most of his playoff career as a leaf despite a lot of chances with 88 and or 91

McCann has beena ~60 pt player these past 2 years on the Kraken, has good speed, an elite shot and the ability to play L1 or L2 without needing other stars to carry the bulk of the load.

20 games is a smaller sample size than 50 which the core fanboys always use to defense 88/34/16. Its even smaller than JT'a time as a leaf.

McCann can be compared to Nylandwr with nylander being the better player and playoffs just further showing that

Kerfoot is a vanilla player that is found on tanking teams. Him and Holl being valued over McCann was a f*** up by Dubas.

We lost out on 60 pt player at 2.5M or so when we got him. Could have dealt him for a kapanen like return after keeping him 1 year if he didnt work for us.

Dubas screwed the expansion draft terribly

 

[LeafEgo]

Playoff no show... Kerfoot is better than McCann

At any rate we would have had both of them if we left Holl exposed. McCann was effectively protecting Kerfoot either way.

 

[notbias]

At any rate we would have had both of them if we left Holl exposed. McCann was effectively protecting Kerfoot either way.

People would have been complaining we gave up a top 4D at the time or hated that McCann was signed for too much after that season... At the time it was the right decision... a year after that, didn't care who we gave up, was a coin flip between them all.

Ppl use playoffs to compare apples to apples usually

Tkachuk/rantanen/Kuch to Marner

Mackinnin/Draisaitl/Mcdavid/Eichel(though I'd argue he is not anywhere near Matthews yet after 3 BAD years in a row) to Matthews

Aho/Barzal/Connor to Nylander

Kerfoot was a low end 2rd line 35 pt player with little grit and low IQ.

He had one good playoff series vs MTL but was bad in most of his playoff career as a leaf despite a lot of chances with 88 and or 91

McCann has beena ~60 pt player these past 2 years on the Kraken, has good speed, an elite shot and the ability to play L1 or L2 without needing other stars to carry the bulk of the load.

20 games is a smaller sample size than 50 which the core fanboys always use to defense 88/34/16. Its even smaller than JT'a time as a leaf.

McCann can be compared to Nylandwr with nylander being the better player and playoffs just further showing that

Kerfoot is a vanilla player that is found on tanking teams. Him and Holl being valued over McCann was a f*** up by Dubas.

We lost out on 60 pt player at 2.5M or so when we got him. Could have dealt him for a kapanen like return after keeping him 1 year if he didnt work for us.

Dubas screwed the expansion draft terribly

You dismissed Kerfoot's one good season and then McCann's entire playoff career, it is funny.

McCann has had no good series.

That one good series = McCann's entire playoff points.

You may as well just dismiss the first 20 games of all of our stars... they are all around PPG in that case...

McCann is also terrible defensively compared to Kerfoot.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Ppl use playoffs to compare apples to apples usually

Tkachuk/rantanen/Kuch to Marner

Mackinnin/Draisaitl/Mcdavid/Eichel(though I'd argue he is not anywhere near Matthews yet after 3 BAD years in a row) to Matthews

Aho/Barzal/Connor to Nylander

Kerfoot was a low end 2rd line 35 pt player with little grit and low IQ.

He had one good playoff series vs MTL but was bad in most of his playoff career as a leaf despite a lot of chances with 88 and or 91

McCann has beena ~60 pt player these past 2 years on the Kraken, has good speed, an elite shot and the ability to play L1 or L2 without needing other stars to carry the bulk of the load.

20 games is a smaller sample size than 50 which the core fanboys always use to defense 88/34/16. Its even smaller than JT'a time as a leaf.

McCann can be compared to Nylandwr with nylander being the better player and playoffs just further showing that

Kerfoot is a vanilla player that is found on tanking teams. Him and Holl being valued over McCann was a f*** up by Dubas.

We lost out on 60 pt player at 2.5M or so when we got him. Could have dealt him for a kapanen like return after keeping him 1 year if he didnt work for us.

Dubas screwed the expansion draft terribly

Kerfoot is a 35 point player and McCann is a 60+ point player yet the last two years there’s been a combined 10 point difference between them at ES. Do you think McCann beats out any of our PP1 players if he stayed here?

 

[hamzarocks]

Kerfoot is a 35 point player and McCann is a 60+ point player yet the last two years there’s been a combined 10 point difference between them at ES. Do you think McCann beats out any of our PP1 players if he stayed here?

We played RoR over Nylander on the PP juat this year

If McCann is here we can deploy a strong 2nd PP unit having 91, 88 and him on unit 2

Kerfoot has 83 pts in his past 164 games with a 51 pt season being in there

McCann 120 pts in 153 games. So 10 more EVS pts in 11 less games while not playing heavy EVS minutes as the Kraken had a lot of 2nd and 3rd line players

He played only 16:00 and 16:20 and produced as a 60 pt player. On Toronto his EVS TOI and production would rise and his PP would drop but it would net to a 60ish pt player like Hyman was for us his last 2-3 years.

Kerfoot was a player we couldn't get rid of.

Kraken didnt want him in the expansion draft

He had no trade value despite his 51 pt year and we had to hold onto him, own rentalling him

He ended up having to go to Arizona on a 2 year deal as no contending team went after him.

McCann is a much better player than kerfoot has ever been and he was looking like a guy who could break out when we got him for nothing.

Dubas misplayed that move terribly. Oen of his worst decisions. We saw the consequnces of having kerfoot and holl the next two years. They hurt pur depth, were over used by keefe and made cost plays vs tampa in 2022.

 

[hamzarocks]

People would have been complaining we gave up a top 4D at the time or hated that McCann was signed for too much after that season... At the time it was the right decision... a year after that, didn't care who we gave up, was a coin flip between them all.



You dismissed Kerfoot's one good season and then McCann's entire playoff career, it is funny.

McCann has had no good series.

That one good series = McCann's entire playoff points.

You may as well just dismiss the first 20 games of all of our stars... they are all around PPG in that case...

McCann is also terrible defensively compared to Kerfoot.

Kerfoot has one good season in his career as a leaf. His 3 other years he was a 35ish pt guy who we tried desperately to be pur 2LW but he was not good enough to keep around.

McCann has played part series as a 22-23 year old for the Pens where he got games but didn't play the whole series and was injured. He hasn't gotten deployed yet in proper minutes for a top 6 winger with this seattle being his first year he was expected to breakout and produce

He didnt do good enough for sure however he was injured and missed games for the kraken, and he has upside of being a strong offensive player in the reg signed to a nice deal which lets the kraken be more patient and wait to see if the reg season production can transfer over to the playoffs.

Kerfoot is nothing special defensive player outside of PK'ing. He was soft and unable to make smart decisions with the puck. Afraid of contact as well.

He was the worst of Dubas mid level hopefuls in Engvall, Mikheyev, Kampf and him.

Fortunately 3 of 4 of those guys are out of the organization now

 

[LaPlante94]

I am just using the same argument everyone uses on this forum to bring down our stars... McCann is one of the worst playoff performs I've seen

You seem a little upset... this is just a discussion, no need to be.

Those are our stars who make 11 million dollars while McCann made what? 3 Million? Y'all defended Engvall with everything you had and what did he do in the playoffs? Kerfoot has barely done anything as well except 1 bubble playoffs performance. Stop acting like you give a damn about all that just to try and push some narrative that has clearly failed the last 5 years.

This is the 2nd time you've said "you seem to be upset" after questioning your ridiculous comments. It's usually a saying a teenager or child says when they know they are being ridiculous.

 

[notbias]

Those are our stars who make 11 million dollars while McCann made what? 3 Million? Y'all defended Engvall with everything you had and what did he do in the playoffs? Kerfoot has barely done anything as well except 1 bubble playoffs performance. Stop acting like you give a damn about all that just to try and push some narrative that has clearly failed the last 5 years.

This is the 2nd time you've said "you seem to be upset" after questioning your ridiculous comments. It's usually a saying a teenager or child says when they know they are being ridiculous.

Engvall has similar stats to McCann... but Engvall can shut down the other team.

You're grasping at straws here.

Both are not needed.

Kerfoot has one good season in his career as a leaf. His 3 other years he was a 35ish pt guy who we tried desperately to be pur 2LW but he was not good enough to keep around.

McCann has played part series as a 22-23 year old for the Pens where he got games but didn't play the whole series and was injured. He hasn't gotten deployed yet in proper minutes for a top 6 winger with this seattle being his first year he was expected to breakout and produce

He didnt do good enough for sure however he was injured and missed games for the kraken, and he has upside of being a strong offensive player in the reg signed to a nice deal which lets the kraken be more patient and wait to see if the reg season production can transfer over to the playoffs.

Kerfoot is nothing special defensive player outside of PK'ing. He was soft and unable to make smart decisions with the puck. Afraid of contact as well.

He was the worst of Dubas mid level hopefuls in Engvall, Mikheyev, Kampf and him.

Fortunately 3 of 4 of those guys are out of the organization now

He produced better after he came back from his injury... that hit knocked some skill into him.

I just think it is funny how a player not on our team is being built up and has terrible production, yet not many would ever do that for players on our team.

I always question how much people are fans of the team vs they like to just complain.

 

[hamzarocks]

Engvall has similar stats to McCann... but Engvall can shut down the other team.

You're grasping at straws here.

Both are not needed.



He produced better after he came back from his injury... that hit knocked some skill into him.

I just think it is funny how a player not on our team is being built up and has terrible production, yet not many would ever do that for players on our team.

I always question how much people are fans of the team vs they like to just complain.

I think most people would apply that last part of your post for you

You've been complaining pretty non-stop since the doobler left

 

[LaPlante94]

Engvall has similar stats to McCann... but Engvall can shut down the other team.

You're grasping at straws here.

Both are not needed.



He produced better after he came back from his injury... that hit knocked some skill into him.

I just think it is funny how a player not on our team is being built up and has terrible production, yet not many would ever do that for players on our team.

I always question how much people are fans of the team vs they like to just complain.

If that was the case why did Dubas trade him and keep a guy like Kerfoot over him if he was that good at shutting the other team down?

 

[Apex Predator]

The year is 2065 and the leafs have won their 4th cup in the last 7 years. Maple Leafs HF Boards are still arguing over if Dubas was a good GM and protecting Kerfoot and Holl was a good move.

 

[meefer]

The year is 2065 and the leafs have won their 4th cup in the last 7 years. Maple Leafs HF Boards are still arguing over if Dubas was a good GM and protecting Kerfoot and Holl was a good move.

You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone!

 

[keonsbitterness]

I gotta wait for Cups until the 2060s? I better start exercising.

Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Burnie97]

I gotta wait for Cups until the 2060s? I better start exercising.

Maybe tomorrow.

Looking at 80 something there by then lol. Hope that bionic shit kicks in real soon.

Or liquor that doesn't give the hangover and is "clean"