Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Fogelhund]

That is why is was foolish trading Rasmus Sandin because he was blocked by a 40 year old.

I don't think he was traded, just because he was blocked by a 40 year old. Sandin's skating just never improved to the point where he could take advantage of his other tools. @JT AM da real deal brought this up many times... Sandin's skating just wasn't good enough. He's got great vision, and can pass the puck well enough, but his skating was subpar, and that left him in trouble in the D zone often enough. He was pretty sheltered here, so his results weren't terrible, but he was exposed pretty badly in Washington. He was a guy you would really cheer for, and much of his game did improve, but the skating didn't enough, and there we go.

 

[dubplatepressure]

I don't think he was traded, just because he was blocked by a 40 year old. Sandin's skating just never improved to the point where he could take advantage of his other tools. @JT AM da real deal brought this up many times... Sandin's skating just wasn't good enough. He's got great vision, and can pass the puck well enough, but his skating was subpar, and that left him in trouble in the D zone often enough. He was pretty sheltered here, so his results weren't terrible, but he was exposed pretty badly in Washington. He was a guy you would really cheer for, and much of his game did improve, but the skating didn't enough, and there we go.

He also wasn't blocked by a 40 year old. He was blocked by a 29 year old (McCabe).

 

[Kiwi]

Where did I say anything about letting him walk? Trade him while he still has top value as a ~30 year old at 50% retention towards the end of the deal. You’re suggesting keeping him for another 10 years as if we’re going to be legitimate cup contenders for another decade, I don’t want to be this seasons version of Pittsburgh but without the cups.

An aging vet team trading their 30 year old C is unrealistic but proposing that we’ll just magically find “a younger star or two” with no high picks is realistic, checks out.



This core is going to be old news in their 30s, nobody buys jerseys of a guy who was a top 5 center in the league 10 years ago and failed to win anything since then. Anyone lining up to buy Towes jerseys these days?

Towes is in his mid 30's and never put up the offensive numbers Matthews has

Matthews takes a 3 or 4 year deal he's still in his very early 30's and in all probability highly productive

Your theory is nice and all but the chances of the Leafs letting that Matthews walk or trading him are almost zero, it's easy for us to say get rid of him but the people who pay the bills and see a gigantic cash cow will feel differently

Nothing in this teams recent history suggests there capable of anything close to that cutthroat and is completely unrealistic

 

[Stephen]

That is why is was foolish trading Rasmus Sandin because he was blocked by a 40 year old.

I'm definitely not Team Sandin at all. The guy skates like a 40 year old combined with the physical presence and ability to withstand forecheck of an 18 year old. Strictly speaking there was no pressure point to force the trade but he definitely didn't make sense to keep building with IMO.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Where did I say anything about letting him walk? Trade him while he still has top value as a ~30 year old at 50% retention towards the end of the deal. You’re suggesting keeping him for another 10 years as if we’re going to be legitimate cup contenders for another decade, I don’t want to be this seasons version of Pittsburgh but without the cups.

An aging vet team trading their 30 year old C is unrealistic but proposing that we’ll just magically find “a younger star or two” with no high picks is realistic, checks out.

Matthews will have an NMC and you're not doing anything without his permission. The team would have to commit to a tank and that won't happen if Matthews still has "top value" as you're suggesting.

I wouldn't get too hooked on my use of the term "younger star". The point is they will change the core around Matthews and try again. This includes converting existing core pieces into assets and/or cap space for signing new pieces. I would imagine this would happen slowly rather than all at once. 5 years is a long time and the other core pieces are not going to be as safe as Matthews anyway.

Look I'm not even against your premise. I will be right there with you saying this is a bad idea and they should get rid of him. I would love the Leafs to be ruthless like that.

However, I'm just saying it usually doesn't work like that in the NHL. Teams cling to their main guy for as long as they can, especially when he's built tenure with the club and will keep trying until the wheels fall off completely.

If that's the case then it's better to sign him long-term right now rather than getting hosed on a higher cap hit later.

 

[BM14]

ok simple will Matthews be worth 13 million in years 6-8? Currently he's 25 will be 26 before the start of the season so he would be 27 before the new contract kicks in. that means the contract runs ages 27-35, will Matthews be a 13 million dollar player @ 31? 33? 35? I highly doubt it. just look at the Tavares example. people are trying to run him out of town @ 11 million and he's still a PPG player. to me 5 years is the perfect fit but 3 wouldn't be terrible either. 8 year deals on UFA contracts almost never benefit the team and the contract at some point becomes an anchor. if you could sign him for 5 years or 3 and then re-sign him for cheaper knowing he's going to decline that is beneficial. also it keeps him motivated. because he wont have a retirement contract.

Is this the first time you've looked at long term contracts in pro sports?

 

[LeafChief]

I don't think he was traded, just because he was blocked by a 40 year old. Sandin's skating just never improved to the point where he could take advantage of his other tools. @JT AM da real deal brought this up many times... Sandin's skating just wasn't good enough. He's got great vision, and can pass the puck well enough, but his skating was subpar, and that left him in trouble in the D zone often enough. He was pretty sheltered here, so his results weren't terrible, but he was exposed pretty badly in Washington. He was a guy you would really cheer for, and much of his game did improve, but the skating didn't enough, and there we go.

Mess became a huge Sandin guy the second he was traded.

 

[Mess]

I'm definitely not Team Sandin at all. The guy skates like a 40 year old combined with the physical presence and ability to withstand forecheck of an 18 year old. Strictly speaking there was no pressure point to force the trade but he definitely didn't make sense to keep building with IMO.

Wasn't a big Sandin fan either however the priciple of trading away 2 X 2nd round draft picks for a 38 year old Gio on his last legs and then thinking the long-term plan was trade the teams drafted and developed youth away because he would be blocked by a 40 year old now on the depth chart. This all is just one big botched job from start to finish.

I usually say "play the kids", but the kids are few and far between and so was the draft picks made.

Dubas was likely going to use the Sandin recaptured 1st round pick to dump Murray, just like he did Mrazek the previous year, so I guess keeping and making the pick is progress.

 

[BM14]

Wasn't a big Sandin fan either however the priciple of trading away 2 X 2nd round draft picks for a 38 year old Gio on his last legs and then thinking the long-term plan was trade the teams drafted and developed youth away because he would be blocked by a 40 year old now on the depth chart. This all is just one big botched job from start to finish.

I usually say "play the kids", but the kids are few and far between and so was the draft picks made.

The flaw with your principle is that you're assuming all Dmen provide the same skillsets.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Sandin has a lot of good skills and maybe he would have overcome the skating issues if he were like 6'2-6'4 but being that size and not being overly fast isn't a recipe for success.

 

[Mess]

Mess became a huge Sandin guy the second he was traded.

Lou Lam drafted Liljegren and Dubas drafted from the Soo Sandin.

Was there really any doubt who would be the better pick?

 

[Stephen]

Wasn't a big Sandin fan either however the priciple of trading away 2 X 2nd round draft picks for a 38 year old Gio on his last legs and then thinking the long-term plan was trade the teams drafted and developed youth away because he would be blocked by a 40 year old now on the depth chart. This all is just one big botched job from start to finish.

I usually say "play the kids", but the kids are few and far between and so was the draft picks made.

Dubas was likely going to use the Sandin recaptured 1st round pick to dump Murray, just like he did Mrazek the previous year, so I guess keeping and making the pick is progress.

Like I say, Dubas got an education and MLSE paid the tuition.

 

[LeafChief]

Lou Lam drafted Liljegren and Dubas drafted from the Soo Sandin.

Was there really any doubt who would be the better pick?

What does that have to do with anything that is being discussed?

Are you suggesting that I don't like Liljegren or is this just more verbal diarrhea?

 

[Mess]

Like I say, Dubas got an education and MLSE paid the tuition.

& Leaf Nation fans suffered the consequences of his incompetence.

 

[Menzinger]

Lou Lam drafted Liljegren and Dubas drafted from the Soo Sandin.

Was there really any doubt who would be the better pick?

Lily being a middle of the round selection was probably a factor

 

[-DeMo-]

Is this the first time you've looked at long term contracts in pro sports?

hmm insults usually a good indication you have no proper counter argument. otherwise you would have just proven me wrong without needing to try and insult me.

 

[notDatsyuk]

If there was some way without Nylander going the other way ...

Defensively though in the playoffs?

View attachment 729255

Maybe he was playing against Draisaitl?

Except for the 21-22 season, his defensive numbers are as bad as Willy's.

His offence isn't as good, despite playing top line.

 

[Mess]

Lily being a middle of the round selection was probably a factor

Well Dubas did trade back and draft Sandin

vs.

FWIW .. I suggested at the time the Leafs should trade up to draft Big Dman K'Andre Miller but NYR did that instead jumping up right in front of the Leafs #25 with the pick originally right after the Leafs #26.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Last 2 season he finished 2nd and 10th on selke and was producing at a similar rate than nylander last 2. But yes nylander offensivly is better...

And no nylander is not better defensivly than scheifele, the biggest difference its hes playing wing unstead of center so his defensive doesn't affevt as much than scheifele at C.

Lack of defensive commitment by nylander is huge... in regular season, its fine and doesn't affect leafs as much because he can compensate by his speed and can still make play in neutral zone like you said with his speed... but in playoff, thats really hurt the team. Nylander is the perfect definition of soft player. Hes bad defensivly because hes soft and doing every thing to avoid the slot and physical contact...

Exemple moving from nylander to lindholm, did leafs are better in term of skill? The answer is no, they are worst.

Are they better as a team and harder to play against? The answer is yes.

If you want to create a playoff identity to the team, you need to bring in players who will play the right way and move out player whos not... and its starting by how you defend...better your defending, more time you will get the puck, most time who will play tie game or with a lead and result you will get more offensive oppprtunities...

Vegas, colorado, tampa, stl, washington, pittsburgh, lak, chicago... take every team who want, everything started by how you defending..Colorado vs tampa defensivly was just so nice to watch, tampa was just totally unable to reach avs territory with the puck.

The only practical argument for trading Nylander for Lindholm would be that we desperately need a 2C.

Even at that, they will have to add.

 

[BM14]

hmm insults usually a good indication you have no proper counter argument. otherwise you would have just proven me wrong without needing to try and insult me.

Oh no, it's not an insult.

I genuinely question if you've ever followed contracts in professional sports based on your reply.

 

[notDatsyuk]

More of his assist was on pp playing the same king of role than marner in toronto...

17 goal and 33 assist at 5v5 with Bennett

This season nylander had 22 goal 27 assist at 5v5 playing alongside matthews...

Much more alongside Tavares, who managed only 16 goals at 5v5.

But even pretending it was more with Matthews, your just showing Willy was better.

 

[Dekes For Days]

the priciple of trading away 2 X 2nd round draft picks for a 38 year old Gio on his last legs and then thinking the long-term plan was trade the teams drafted and developed youth away because he would be blocked by a 40 year old now on the depth chart.

Except that's not what happened. We traded two 2nds for a retained and then league-minimum re-signed Giordano, who did quite well for us, and we didn't trade Sandin away because of that. If he was blocked by anybody, it was Rielly and McCabe, but the trade was more about Sandin himself and how he was progressing than anything else.

Dubas was likely going to use the Sandin recaptured 1st round pick to dump Murray, just like he did Mrazek the previous year

Our current GM doing what Dubas did with Mrazek the previous year - getting rid of a worse goalie contract for 13 negligible draft slots - would have been much better than the alternative options we're now looking at.

Lou Lam drafted Liljegren and Dubas drafted from the Soo Sandin.
Was there really any doubt who would be the better pick?

Well, considering that Dubas drafted massively better than Lou, one would expect Sandin to be the better pick, but Liljgren was also a potential lottery pick that got mono and somehow dropped to the middle of the first round, higher than where Sandin was drafted, so Lou benefitted from the team being worse under him and thankfully was kind of forced into taking Liljegren.

 

[mydnyte]

The only practical argument for trading Nylander for Lindholm would be that we desperately need a 2C.

Even at that, they will have to add.

We have a 35+ goal PPG Center who is one of the best faceoff guys in the League ...we certainly do NOT desperately need a 2C
People were ready to pencil in ROR as the #2C but he's slower than JT and has lost most of his offense.
we need a 'future' #2C and that is true, but, as long as JT is here, he is more than capable.

 

[nuck]

Much more alongside Tavares, who managed only 16 goals at 5v5.

But even pretending it was more with Matthews, your just showing Willy was better.

Where are you getting this info from? MoneyPuck says about Willie spent about 455m with AM at center and 315m with JT at center. 132m beside all others. Do you have a different data base?

 

[andora]

Where are you getting this info from? MoneyPuck says about Willie spent about 455m with AM at center and 315m with JT at center. 132m beside all others. Do you have a different data base?

And natural stat trick has this for 5on5