Trades and Free Agency - 2022-23 Season Edition

[andora]

It's amazing the similarities to last year so far. Same record, same people running around doing the angry blame, sky is falling.. it was exactly like this last year.

Honest question - was the drama around the team as smoky as it is this year?

Was there even a fraction a weird quotes as there is this year?

I followed bo media last year

Or were explicitly comparing this asylum only to last year haha

 

[Fogelhund]

Honest question - was the drama around the team as smoky as it is this year?

Was there even a fraction a weird quotes as there is this year?

I followed bo media last year

Or were explicitly comparing this asylum only to last year haha

Was the media and fan drama as bad last year, at this point... absolutely.

There has been some weird quotes though... sure... Keefe has been odd... and I don't personally care... I mean, either the ship gets righted soon, or Keefe is gone, and we get Trotz likely... I don't care who coaches the team...

Noting, these are all articles from 2021... last year at this time...

Opinion | There’s something deeply wrong with the Maple Leafs. Squeaking past the NHL’s worst team solves nothing

In some ways, dodging a humiliating loss in Chi-town was just about the worst thing that could have happened to the Leafs. It allows just enough trace evidence of a pulse to let out some rope. If they don’t snap out of it on their longest homestand of the season, starting Saturday against...

www.thestar.com

Fans are already done with the Toronto Maple Leafs and the season just started

Heartbreak and tragedy go hand in hand with the legendary blue and white jerseys of the Toronto Maple Leafs, but fans are usually spared from the wor…

www.blogto.com

Maple Leafs can silence critics only by winning, GM says | NHL.com

Dubas believes it's time to 'show what we are made of' after recent four-game slide

www.nhl.com

Opinion | Leafs face a crisis of confidence at the lowest point of Brendan Shanahan’s tenure

Maple Leafs president must find a way to restore belief — from fans, critics and others — in the team he’s built.

www.thestar.com

Are the Maple Leafs a total disaster?

Is it time to fire everyone?

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I appreciate the optimism, I don't think anyone thinks Matthews/Marner will only score 50 points this year. The upset comments are because we see ourselves as championship contenders. Nobody will argue that we aren't in the mix for the playoffs, that's very reasonable.

We are continually doubling down and telling our guys we believe in them, and were well past the point of learning as we go.

My source of anger, is that this is NOT a small sample size. This is year 6? of this core and we're still not starting on time, still not playing 60 minutes, losing to bottom 10 teams, lucked out with a goalie and still suck, and we've sacrificed a great deal of assets to maintain this status quo.

There are exceptions of a bad team turning into super saiyan goku (St. Louis Blues) and figuring it out. Can we still put together a respectable season and make the playoffs? Absolutely. Will we win round 1 or god forbid round 2? I really don't see it. Can you picture us beating, say, Boston/Tampa and then the Rangers/Carolina? Guys it's not happening.

 

[andora]

Was the media and fan drama as bad last year, at this point... absolutely.

There has been some weird quotes though... sure... Keefe has been odd... and I don't personally care... I mean, either the ship gets righted soon, or Keefe is gone, and we get Trotz likely... I don't care who coaches the team...

Noting, these are all articles from 2021... last year at this time...

Opinion | There’s something deeply wrong with the Maple Leafs. Squeaking past the NHL’s worst team solves nothing

In some ways, dodging a humiliating loss in Chi-town was just about the worst thing that could have happened to the Leafs. It allows just enough trace evidence of a pulse to let out some rope. If they don’t snap out of it on their longest homestand of the season, starting Saturday against...

www.thestar.com

Fans are already done with the Toronto Maple Leafs and the season just started

Heartbreak and tragedy go hand in hand with the legendary blue and white jerseys of the Toronto Maple Leafs, but fans are usually spared from the wor…

www.blogto.com

Maple Leafs can silence critics only by winning, GM says | NHL.com

Dubas believes it's time to 'show what we are made of' after recent four-game slide

www.nhl.com

Opinion | Leafs face a crisis of confidence at the lowest point of Brendan Shanahan’s tenure

Maple Leafs president must find a way to restore belief — from fans, critics and others — in the team he’s built.

www.thestar.com

Are the Maple Leafs a total disaster?

Is it time to fire everyone?

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

Appreciate the links - i have no doubt media and articles were doomsday - i just meant specific to the players and coach and actions and words.. cause it feels different and off to me this year

But again appreciate the links.. couple titles gave me a chuckle

 

[notDatsyuk]

The issue for many, myself included, is that last year was a failure, as was every year before it and I don’t want to see any similarities.

Whether you consider last year a success or failure depends on what you set as the goal(s).

If your goal was a slightly better regular season than last year, it was a success.

If your goal was to advance farther in the playoffs, it was a failure.

I think management's goals were, once again, to make the playoffs, hide the fact that the Tavares signing/contract is bad, and keep their jobs, so to them it was a success.

 

[Americanadian]

Last year's regular season wasn't a failure. It was the biggest regular season success this team has ever had. People overreacted early in the season last year, and they are again this year.

Allegedly, all that matters is playoff success, right up until we lose a few games in a bad fashion 10 games in, and people completely lose their sh$&. People are literally melting down, and angry at everything, and anything that has ever been done. I appreciate the nuances in repeating the same mistakes time and again, but it's premature. Missing two good D men, and our top player seems to have forgotten how to shoot. There is plenty of time to address challenges, maybe some trades, maybe we try other people in bottom six roles, Lilly will be back in the lineup soon, and Muzzin will either join him at some point, or LTIR and we'll trade for quality to replace him.

It's exactly like freaking out that the Jays had a bad first inning... there is a lot of runway to go here, and I understand the PTSD... but people freaked out at this time last year, for no reason... and it's going to be the same this season in all likelihood.

When we turn it around, there is going to be a ton of quotables in here. Playoff success, or failure isn't determined 10 games into regular season.

When Kyle Dubas took over the Leafs were coming off their previous franchise record regular season. Was the goal at that point for Kyle Dubas to set a new franchise record in regular season points or was it for him to take this team to a cup?

 

[Leafed]

Sandin
1st (2022)
Hirvonen
Malgin

Gavrikov
Jenner

Bunting Matthews Nylander
Jarnkrok Tavares Marner
Robertson Jenner Kerfoot
Engvall Kampf ZAR

Rielly Liljegren
Gavrikov Brodie
Gio Holl

 

[Malachi Crunch]

I've thought Seattle would be a good trading partner for a while now. Don't think they'd part with Wright...he'd be the guy they'd be getting Marner to play with. BUT, they have many parts the Leafs need.

I would personally like to see a return including Larsson, Gourde, McCann, and Appleton. Marner being the far and above best player in the trade, I'm not sure what either side would have to add. But veteran toughness and a stay at home defenseman certainly fit the bill here. Building their team around Wright and Marner would suit them nicely as well.

Yeah, if Marner goes (likely in the summer, if it happens), I can see Seattle being right at the front of the line. I like some of the players that you mentioned, but I would insist on Oleksiak too.

 

[Fogelhund]

When Kyle Dubas took over the Leafs were coming off their previous franchise record regular season. Was the goal at that point for Kyle Dubas to set a new franchise record in regular season points or was it for him to take this team to a cup?

Have we failed in our attempt to win the cup in 2022-23, if that's your focus?

 

[Americanadian]

Have we failed in our attempt to win the cup in 2022-23, if that's your focus?

If you watch this team and see anything different than the last 6 years then you can have hope. Myself, and presumably the other people who are treating this as a "sky falling" situation, see this team as exactly the same team we've seen fail the last 6 years. If the Leafs win the cup this year I will be the first one on this board saying I was wrong. I have just lost all belief in this group based on their lack of change.

 

[Fogelhund]

If you watch this team and see anything different than the last 6 years then you can have hope. Myself, and presumably the other people who are treating this as a "sky falling" situation, see this team as exactly the same team we've seen fail the last 6 years. If the Leafs win the cup this year I will be the first one on this board saying I was wrong. I have just lost all belief in this group based on their lack of change.

I understand. I see problems as well, have for years.. but at the same time, we've had incredible regular season success, and have been very close a few times. The team we have now, will not be the same team we enter the playoffs with... it never is. We may not even have the same coach. The sky isn't falling.. it wasn't last year either... there are ups, and downs, there always is.. the key is not to get too worked up about failures, or successes during a regular season, that is relatively meaningless. Matthews isn't going to shoot 2.8% 5v5 all year... Lilly will come back, Muzzin, or Muzzin replacement will come... Murray, or Murray replacement will come. Keefe will lead the team to the playoffs, or will get replaced before all is lost.. the bottom six will get sorted somehow.... Tavares and Rielly will tighten up their games....Qualify for the playoffs, enjoy the ride, and changes along the way, don't let down periods get to you emotionally.. Then do something if we fail... we aren't blowing it up ten games in, that's ridiculous...

 

[Stephen]

Blockbuster:

To Toronto
Shane Wright
Jared McCann
Jamie Oleksiak

To Seattle
Mitch Marner
Rasmus Sandin

Beniers would be our target. Shane Wright doesn’t seem to be the guy.

 

[Americanadian]

I understand. I see problems as well, have for years.. but at the same time, we've had incredible regular season success, and have been very close a few times. The team we have now, will not be the same team we enter the playoffs with... it never is. We may not even have the same coach. The sky isn't falling.. it wasn't last year either... there are ups, and downs, there always is.. the key is not to get too worked up about failures, or successes during a regular season, that is relatively meaningless. Matthews isn't going to shoot 2.8% 5v5 all year... Lilly will come back, Muzzin, or Muzzin replacement will come... Murray, or Murray replacement will come. Keefe will lead the team to the playoffs, or will get replaced before all is lost.. the bottom six will get sorted somehow.... Tavares and Rielly will tighten up their games....Qualify for the playoffs, enjoy the ride, and changes along the way, don't let down periods get to you emotionally.. Then do something if we fail... we aren't blowing it up ten games in, that's ridiculous...

I envy your optimism. I do believe Matthews will score at a normal pace eventually. I don't think Rielly is going to be any better defensively - he's been this way his whole career. I don't think you can expect much better out of Tavares over what we've seen so far. I truly fear a trade for a Muzzin/Murray replacement because who's out there? Chychrun? He is not the answer for this team and the prospect capital you'd have to let go of to get him would set this team back. If you look at the rest of the non contenders you get Murphy/Oleksiak/Larsson but all 3 of them turn 30 this season and are realistically on a decline (I wouldn't mind Murphy though). I have no clue who replaces Murray, if anyone. I'd prefer the Leafs hold on to their 1st round picks and prospects so they can get actual contributors on ELCs moving forward.

It boils down to the two of us having a fundamental difference in evaluation and hope.

 

[Fogelhund]

I envy your optimism. I do believe Matthews will score at a normal pace eventually. I don't think Rielly is going to be any better defensively - he's been this way his whole career. I don't think you can expect much better out of Tavares over what we've seen so far. I truly fear a trade for a Muzzin/Murray replacement because who's out there? Chychrun? He is not the answer for this team and the prospect capital you'd have to let go of to get him would set this team back. If you look at the rest of the non contenders you get Murphy/Oleksiak/Larsson but all 3 of them turn 30 this season and are realistically on a decline (I wouldn't mind Murphy though). I have no clue who replaces Murray, if anyone. I'd prefer the Leafs hold on to their 1st round picks and prospects so they can get actual contributors on ELCs moving forward.

It boils down to the two of us having a fundamental difference in evaluation and hope.

It's not even optimism... it's the benefit of being in my 50's, been there, done that, seen this before. Don't sweat the short term results, focus on long term goals.

I also don't want Chych... like Murphy, but suggested Peeke as a younger alternative, who IMO will be just as good very soon...

 

[-DeMo-]

not sure where to post this but I'll post it here, one thing I always read in the forum is that of the core 4 Tavares is the one we should move, and I think that's furthest from the truth and here's why.

He's a Toronto boy grew up here and so did his wife, his family and friends are also here. there is a very good chance that once his current deal is up he will not be willing to go play elsewhere similar to Spezza and Giordano. and therefore we could be looking at another guy willing to take discounts to be here. he already proven this to be the case. rumor has it San Jose offered 13 million per 91 mill over 7 years, and he took 2 million less to be here, now 11 million is not a discount for the caliber of player but it was a discount on the open Market, also the majority of players who sign big UFA contracts don't live up to them, and especially in the final years is usually a huge anchor. to be still playing at a PPG level today is actually very successful. not saying he's not overpaid.

however in the future beyond his current contract there is potential for Tavares to finish his career in Toronto on very team friendly deals, we've seen other players do it. and I believe it's a very real possibility with Tavares and therefore going forward in order to extend our cup window Tavares could be key piece.

 

[Sebastien]

Sandin
1st (2022)
Hirvonen
Malgin

Gavrikov
Jenner

Bunting Matthews Nylander
Jarnkrok Tavares Marner
Robertson Jenner Kerfoot
Engvall Kampf ZAR

Rielly Liljegren
Gavrikov Brodie
Gio Holl

Columbus isn't trading Jenner.

 

[andora]

It's not even optimism... it's the benefit of being in my 50's, been there, done that, seen this before. Don't sweat the short term results, focus on long term goals.

I also don't want Chych... like Murphy, but suggested Peeke as a younger alternative, who IMO will be just as good very soon...

Interested.. thoughts on any of

Shattenkirk
Fabbro
Carrier
Borgen

Smaller moves..

 

[Americanadian]

It's not even optimism... it's the benefit of being in my 50's, been there, done that, seen this before. Don't sweat the short term results, focus on long term goals.

I also don't want Chych... like Murphy, but suggested Peeke as a younger alternative, who IMO will be just as good very soon...

I appreciate the fresh idea of Peeke. As someone who relies heavily on analytics I'm not a fan because he grades out as a non-NHLer but I can see why his physical profile is enticing.

 

[Fogelhund]

I appreciate the fresh idea of Peeke. As someone who relies heavily on analytics I'm not a fan because he grades out as a non-NHLer but I can see why his physical profile is enticing.

Elite defensively..., physical good size, good mobility, PK is actually decent this year, as you would expect. his offense is coming along... 3 points in 10 games so far this year, and was second on team USA at World Champs in the spring, 6 pts, 10 games, ahead of Seth Jones... Decent first pass. He's 24, just coming into his own.. his team is terrible. Note when looking at analytics, he starts over 70% in the dzone, so you always have to account for that. I'd just like to find the "next" Manson/Weegar/Tanev... and pay less to get one today, than the premier name that like you've suggested, is close to 30 already... you just get more mileage out of them..

Maybe it doesn't end up being Peeke, but find the next known premier defender.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Elite defensively..., physical good size, good mobility, PK is actually decent this year, as you would expect. his offense is coming along... 3 points in 10 games so far this year, and was second on team USA at World Champs in the spring, 6 pts, 10 games, ahead of Seth Jones... Decent first pass. He's 24, just coming into his own.. his team is terrible. Note when looking at analytics, he starts over 70% in the dzone, so you always have to account for that. I'd just like to find the "next" Manson/Weegar/Tanev... and pay less to get one today, than the premier name that like you've suggested, is close to 30 already... you just get more mileage out of them..

Maybe it doesn't end up being Peeke, but find the next known premier defender.

View attachment 601657

I wanted him before he played his first full season last year.

He should be a fine 2nd or 3rd pairing guy for a number of years going forward, even if his offense sucks.

 

[SprDaVE]

Elite defensively..., physical good size, good mobility, PK is actually decent this year, as you would expect. his offense is coming along... 3 points in 10 games so far this year, and was second on team USA at World Champs in the spring, 6 pts, 10 games, ahead of Seth Jones... Decent first pass. He's 24, just coming into his own.. his team is terrible. Note when looking at analytics, he starts over 70% in the dzone, so you always have to account for that. I'd just like to find the "next" Manson/Weegar/Tanev... and pay less to get one today, than the premier name that like you've suggested, is close to 30 already... you just get more mileage out of them..

Maybe it doesn't end up being Peeke, but find the next known premier defender.

View attachment 601657

If the Leafs turn it around and don't have Muzzin for the year, I think Murphy makes far too much sense. Cost controlled, capable and attributes that match Muzzin defensively. And right handed.

He will be highly courted I think but I think the Leafs have the assets to make it work.

Peeke would probably be more of a lower end solution to me. He's cheap though.

 

[Fogelhund]

If the Leafs turn it around and don't have Muzzin for the year, I think Murphy makes far too much sense. Cost controlled, capable and attributes that match Muzzin defensively. And right handed.

He will be highly courted I think but I think the Leafs have the assets to make it work.

Peeke would probably be more of a lower end solution to me. He's cheap though.

I get the thinking... Murphy does make a lot of sense... he's a proven commodity.. is right handed. I'd be quite happy with that acquisition.

I don't know if Peeke is a lower end solution... I think in a couple of years, he's viewed as an equal to what Murphy is now... maybe with a little more offense. He's had one full season in the NHL, has low mileage on the body, so my thinking is simply.. get the younger guy, who is going to be here for years.

Muzzin has been great, but we acquired at 29, and he might be done at 33. Should we acquire Murphy at 29, and get maybe 4 years plus or minus out of him... or go for the younger guy, who is trending towards that level, at 24, and get potentially 9 years out of them? If we are going to spend assets, get the guy who could be here a long time. I don't care if it's actually Peeke... but in this forum, we talked about getting Tanev after the WC's in 2016, we talked Manson after the 2016-17 season, before the offensive breakout year, we talked about Weegar in 2019... For once, I'd like to get the guy, before they turn into a big brand name.

 

[ER89]

Beniers would be our target. Shane Wright doesn’t seem to be the guy.

would need both.

 

[Americanadian]

Elite defensively..., physical good size, good mobility, PK is actually decent this year, as you would expect. his offense is coming along... 3 points in 10 games so far this year, and was second on team USA at World Champs in the spring, 6 pts, 10 games, ahead of Seth Jones... Decent first pass. He's 24, just coming into his own.. his team is terrible. Note when looking at analytics, he starts over 70% in the dzone, so you always have to account for that. I'd just like to find the "next" Manson/Weegar/Tanev... and pay less to get one today, than the premier name that like you've suggested, is close to 30 already... you just get more mileage out of them..

Maybe it doesn't end up being Peeke, but find the next known premier defender.

View attachment 601657

I was going off of the Athletic's GSVA where he is a -0.7. It's interesting that his defensive results are so high, and his quality of competition is pretty good but he is the worst PKer in the league.

 

[Fogelhund]

I was going off of the Athletic's GSVA where he is a -0.7. It's interesting that his defensive results are so high, and his quality of competition is pretty good but he is the worst PKer in the league.

His PK has been good this year.