Trades and Free Agency - 2022-23 Season Edition

[SprDaVE]

To clarify my own stance, I don't think trades ever should be made based on momentary needs. We need a Muzzin replacement for Muzzin, we're already counting on Liljegren to man the right side. It took Dubas months to identify and negotiate the Muzzin trade the first time around. I assume a similar move this year would take just as long.

There's no need to trade Nylander. But I think a Muzzin replacement, aka a #2D to give us an elite 2nd pairing, would be a worthy move. At some point the big4 experiment will end, Nylander is going to command a decent sized raise in two years, and he still has more value due to two years left on his deal. I'm a big Nylander fan, but I rate a Muzzin type player more highly than our fourth most important forward.

You can acquire really good defenseman without having to trade one of your best players, and the current best player.

Teams that contend for the cup don't trade Nylander level players to add. They trade future assets.

 

[LeafGrief]

You can acquire really good defenseman without having to trade one of your best players, and the current best player.

Teams that contend for the cup don't trade Nylander level players to add. They trade future assets.

A Nylander trade is not meant to be an add, it is a hockey trade intended to rebalance the team. I don't believe that is necessary for us, but after five years of first round exits I don't think we should be allergic to the idea either. If Dubas wants to trade futures for a Chychrun-equivalent player (much like the Muzzin trade) then I'm all for it. But there's only so many trading partners out there and some of them are looking for current players rather than prospects.

Again, there is no need to trade Nylander. My point is that we need a Muzzin replacement, and that need is more important than keeping Nylander. My hot take is that the writing is on the wall regarding Nylander's future here. He's a brilliant player on a great contract, we'd do very well in Nylander trade.

 

[Fogelhund]

To clarify my own stance, I don't think trades ever should be made based on momentary needs. We need a Muzzin replacement for Muzzin, we're already counting on Liljegren to man the right side. It took Dubas months to identify and negotiate the Muzzin trade the first time around. I assume a similar move this year would take just as long.

There's no need to trade Nylander. But I think a Muzzin replacement, aka a #2D to give us an elite 2nd pairing, would be a worthy move. At some point the big4 experiment will end, Nylander is going to command a decent sized raise in two years, and he still has more value due to two years left on his deal. I'm a big Nylander fan, but I rate a Muzzin type player more highly than our fourth most important forward.

Still no. You don't trade a Nylander, and Chychrun is the wrong target. Even without Muzzin, our Left side is fine until the start of the 2024-25 season.

There are a number of other better targets, depending on your opinion, and of the players.

RHD names mentioned include Murphy, Zub, Severson, Roy, Orlov, Regula, Mayfield, that have been brought up the past few days, who various posters have had interest in. Of course, the availability of each varies, depending on where there team is at, and what their plans are for these players moving forward. I doubt that any of these guys, except maybe Murphy are available today, the rest might become available later in the year.

I suppose for now, we just roll with what we have, and see how that plays out.

 

[LeafSteel]

A Nylander trade is not meant to be an add, it is a hockey trade intended to rebalance the team. I don't believe that is necessary for us, but after five years of first round exits I don't think we should be allergic to the idea either. If Dubas wants to trade futures for a Chychrun-equivalent player (much like the Muzzin trade) then I'm all for it. But there's only so many trading partners out there and some of them are looking for current players rather than prospects.

Again, there is no need to trade Nylander. My point is that we need a Muzzin replacement, and that need is more important than keeping Nylander. My hot take is that the writing is on the wall regarding Nylander's future here. He's a brilliant player on a great contract, we'd do very well in Nylander trade.

I think you are making Chychrun into a much more impactful player than he really is.

You do not trade Nylander for Chychrun, and consider it a move to improve the team, because it isn't.

Chychrun is the name that is most mentioned, but if you look at his actual game and compare it to what we need, he is not the best fit and will be a waste of the assets that we need to use to get the best fit.

RHD is priority, with solid stay at home defence. it has been a glaring hole for years that has never been properly and formally addressed. Chychrun will leave that hole gaping, and at the cost of significant assets. That is not improving our team.

 

[SprDaVE]

A Nylander trade is not meant to be an add, it is a hockey trade intended to rebalance the team. I don't believe that is necessary for us, but after five years of first round exits I don't think we should be allergic to the idea either. If Dubas wants to trade futures for a Chychrun-equivalent player (much like the Muzzin trade) then I'm all for it. But there's only so many trading partners out there and some of them are looking for current players rather than prospects.

Again, there is no need to trade Nylander. My point is that we need a Muzzin replacement, and that need is more important than keeping Nylander. My hot take is that the writing is on the wall regarding Nylander's future here. He's a brilliant player on a great contract, we'd do very well in Nylander trade.

It doesn't balance anything. All it does is tilt the problem from the defence to the offence. Chychrun doesn't give you the value that Nylander does.

And while I don't think replacing Muzzin is necessary at this time, you can easily replace his skillset without trading Nylander. You say there's no need, but you suggesting that trading him is necessary to gain a Muzzin level replacement means that you think it's a need.

The writing might be on the wall with Nylander, but it won't be anytime soon. If you want to really change things up for salary purposes and add a defenseman, you might as well think of trading Marner.

 

[Menzinger]

A Nylander trade is not meant to be an add, it is a hockey trade intended to rebalance the team. I don't believe that is necessary for us, but after five years of first round exits I don't think we should be allergic to the idea either. If Dubas wants to trade futures for a Chychrun-equivalent player (much like the Muzzin trade) then I'm all for it. But there's only so many trading partners out there and some of them are looking for current players rather than prospects.

Again, there is no need to trade Nylander. My point is that we need a Muzzin replacement, and that need is more important than keeping Nylander. My hot take is that the writing is on the wall regarding Nylander's future here. He's a brilliant player on a great contract, we'd do very well in Nylander trade.

Though the biggest problem the team has had in the playoffs has been scoring goals. Moving Nylander now puts even more pressure on the 1st line to single handily carry the team, which so far have been unable to do.

 

[andora]

Still no. You don't trade a Nylander, and Chychrun is the wrong target. Even without Muzzin, our Left side is fine until the start of the 2024-25 season.

There are a number of other better targets, depending on your opinion, and of the players.

RHD names mentioned include Murphy, Zub, Severson, Roy, Orlov, Regula, Mayfield, that have been brought up the past few days, who various posters have had interest in. Of course, the availability of each varies, depending on where there team is at, and what their plans are for these players moving forward. I doubt that any of these guys, except maybe Murphy are available today, the rest might become available later in the year.

I suppose for now, we just roll with what we have, and see how that plays out.

Scratch off any eastern teams going for playoffs imo

 

[LeafGrief]

Still no. You don't trade a Nylander, and Chychrun is the wrong target. Even without Muzzin, our Left side is fine until the start of the 2024-25 season.

There are a number of other better targets, depending on your opinion, and of the players.

RHD names mentioned include Murphy, Zub, Severson, Roy, Orlov, Regula, Mayfield, that have been brought up the past few days, who various posters have had interest in. Of course, the availability of each varies, depending on where there team is at, and what their plans are for these players moving forward. I doubt that any of these guys, except maybe Murphy are available today, the rest might become available later in the year.

I wrote Chychrun-equivalent in my last post and referred to "similar" players in others. I don't particularly care to get hung up on individual trade targets, what I care about is impact. I think exploring a Nylander trade makes sense in the sense that we would trade any player on the roster if the right deal came along, and I am not nearly as optimistic about re-signing him as some others might be. When Dubas said "we can and we will" he was right, but that didn't mean hold on to them until the end of the world, come hell or high water. My thinking of involving Nylander means getting back a player of equivalent value, dangle his name and the options for trade targets opens up dramatically.

Regardless, I do not agree that the left side is fine until 24-25. Rielly is a rockstar, but Gio is 39 and Sandin is an unproven youngster with upside. If Sandin has a brilliant year and emerges as a bonafide top4 defender who can actually play defense (we have a long history of 3rd pairing xGF% superstars who don't make the jump to top4 capable) then I'll change my tune. But neither of those guys bring the shutdown physical presence that a healthy Jake Muzzin did for us. They're good players and I like them, don't get me wrong, but healthy prime Muzzin was an absolute beast for us and that's what I'm willing to trade Nylander for.

I'm okay with our right side as of now. I trust Brodie completely, I have very high hopes for Liljegren (he's shown the defensive chops that we want Sandin to develop) and I actually like Holl in the roster. If we're upgrading the right, we're upgrading on Holl and that's not going to be a Muzzin level player.

I also don't particularly care about the right-left side discussions. That's a Babcockism IMO. The Lightning won two cups with their 3LHD being the #1-3's. We had Rielly-Muzzin as our #1-2, each on separate pairs and that worked out fine. If we get a legit #2, it doesn't matter which side they play.

 

[LeafGrief]

I think you are making Chychrun into a much more impactful player than he really is.

You do not trade Nylander for Chychrun, and consider it a move to improve the team, because it isn't.

Chychrun is the name that is most mentioned, but if you look at his actual game and compare it to what we need, he is not the best fit and will be a waste of the assets that we need to use to get the best fit.

RHD is priority, with solid stay at home defence. it has been a glaring hole for years that has never been properly and formally addressed. Chychrun will leave that hole gaping, and at the cost of significant assets. That is not improving our team.

I don't give a shit about the name, what I really want is a 25 year old Jake Muzzin. If people think that's not Chychrun, that's fine, he's just an easy name to use when writing a post because I want people to understand what I mean.

Nylander, like every single other player on the roster and in the organization, can be moved in a hockey trade if it will help the team. The rest of your post is preaching to the choir because you missed my point completely and are just arguing from the "this guy said he wants to trade Nylander playbook". I don't want to trade Nylander, what I want is Jake Muzzin 2.0 and I am telling you that I would give up Nylander to get that player. Pick a different player if you think that's not Chychrun.

 

[LeafGrief]

Though the biggest problem the team has had in the playoffs has been scoring goals. Moving Nylander now puts even more pressure on the 1st line to single handily carry the team, which so far have been unable to do.

If our biggest problem has been scoring goals and our top guns are unable to carry the load, that's an argument for needing better depth. The big4 experiment, which for the record I loved every minute of, has not delivered and comes at a very direct cost (40m) of meaning our 3rd and 4th lines are manned by a rotating cast of guys who don't score in the playoffs. Hasn't mattered if they're big and strong, small and skilled, fast or crafty, none of them since Kapanen have scored when it matters. If we're keeping Nylander, that means we're extending him, and I am not excited about another decade with no depth, built around the same core with the same weaknesses. We don't NEED to trade Nylander, but I'm at the point where I'm willing to talk about it.

Muzzin has been one of our most important players in the playoffs every year he's worn a Leafs uniform. I very strongly believe that without his impact, we will have a new big problem. None of our other defensemen bring the presence that he brings, and they can't do it by committee.

Ultimately, I have zero doubt that @Fogelhund is right and that this year will just play out with the pieces we do have.

 

[WTFMAN99]

If our biggest problem has been scoring goals and our top guns are unable to carry the load, that's an argument for needing better depth. The big4 experiment, which for the record I loved every minute of, has not delivered and comes at a very direct cost (40m) of meaning our 3rd and 4th lines are manned by a rotating cast of guys who don't score in the playoffs. Hasn't mattered if they're big and strong, small and skilled, fast or crafty, none of them since Kapanen have scored when it matters. If we're keeping Nylander, that means we're extending him, and I am not excited about another decade with no depth, built around the same core with the same weaknesses. We don't NEED to trade Nylander, but I'm at the point where I'm willing to talk about it.

Muzzin has been one of our most important players in the playoffs every year he's worn a Leafs uniform. I very strongly believe that without his impact, we will have a new big problem. None of our other defensemen bring the presence that he brings, and they can't do it by committee.

Ultimately, I have zero doubt that @Fogelhund is right and that this year will just play out with the pieces we do have.

If it's the slow moving train that we all seem to believe it is...why not just address it?

Muzzin's presence isn't there anymore, he's got a glass chin / head, needs to focus on his own health.

Keep an eye on teams fading in the race, try to find 1-2 guys...Rielly, Brodie, Liljegren, and Sandin are 4/6. The other 2 need to be massive pricks.

If Matthews extends, maybe you extend Nylander too but shop Marner?

Who's a top tier RD you could acquire for Marner?

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Who's a top tier RD you could acquire for Marner?

I just can't imagine anyone who would go 1 for 1. I am guessing it would be a package coming back, and the dman would be young. Maybe something like Brandt Clarke+Fiala+.

We probably lose almost any deal like this. I think it might be smarter to let the JT contract expire and see if we can keep the top 3, maybe JT at a much lower term.

 

[cyris]

If it's the slow moving train that we all seem to believe it is...why not just address it?

Muzzin's presence isn't there anymore, he's got a glass chin / head, needs to focus on his own health.

Keep an eye on teams fading in the race, try to find 1-2 guys...Rielly, Brodie, Liljegren, and Sandin are 4/6. The other 2 need to be massive pricks.

If Matthews extends, maybe you extend Nylander too but shop Marner?

Who's a top tier RD you could acquire for Marner?

It’s a lot easier said than done. If we knew Muzzin was done we could use his cap space to add. But we don’t know that.
You can’t just fill his cap space on the roster and then have him say he is healthy 6 weeks later. And with his NTC we can’t trade him to make the space either

 

[WTFMAN99]

I just can't imagine anyone who would go 1 for 1. I am guessing it would be a package coming back, and the dman would be young. Maybe something like Brandt Clarke+Fiala+.

We probably lose almost any deal like this. I think it might be smarter to let the JT contract expire and see if we can keep the top 3, maybe JT at a much lower term.

If we failed again, I would need to see a different group.

I thought about something like Rasmus Andersson and Backlund or something.

Tkachuk brought back a pending UFA in Weegar and Huberdeau essentially....Calgary took the risk and signed them to pretty reasonable extensions....no 2024 pending right shot UFA in the same stratosphere as Marner though.

Go young, target Nemec++ from Devils?

They have Marino and Hamilton under contract.

It’s a lot easier said than done. If we knew Muzzin was done we could use his cap space to add. But we don’t know that.
You can’t just fill his cap space on the roster and then have him say he is healthy 6 weeks later. And with his NTC we can’t trade him to make the space either

Oh you gotta lay down the law with Muzzin, you're done, stay home, protect your personal health.

 

[Menzinger]

If our biggest problem has been scoring goals and our top guns are unable to carry the load, that's an argument for needing better depth. The big4 experiment, which for the record I loved every minute of, has not delivered and comes at a very direct cost (40m) of meaning our 3rd and 4th lines are manned by a rotating cast of guys who don't score in the playoffs. Hasn't mattered if they're big and strong, small and skilled, fast or crafty, none of them since Kapanen have scored when it matters. If we're keeping Nylander, that means we're extending him, and I am not excited about another decade with no depth, built around the same core with the same weaknesses. We don't NEED to trade Nylander, but I'm at the point where I'm willing to talk about it.

Muzzin has been one of our most important players in the playoffs every year he's worn a Leafs uniform. I very strongly believe that without his impact, we will have a new big problem. None of our other defensemen bring the presence that he brings, and they can't do it by committee.

Ultimately, I have zero doubt that @Fogelhund is right and that this year will just play out with the pieces we do have.

The issue here is, Nylanders salary is by far the cheapest of those core forwards. You're not exactly getting much depth out of it if you break it down, especially considering you also have to makeup the 70-80 points lost from him.

Part of this rebalancing may just naturally come when Tavares contract expires in a couple season paired with the upcoming anticipated spike in the cap ceiling in the 2024-2026 range.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

If we failed again, I would need to see a different group.

I thought about something like Rasmus Andersson and Backlund or something.

Tkachuk brought back a pending UFA in Weegar and Huberdeau essentially....Calgary took the risk and signed them to pretty reasonable extensions....no 2024 pending right shot UFA in the same stratosphere as Marner though.

Go young, target Nemec++ from Devils?

They have Marino and Hamilton under contract.



Oh you gotta lay down the law with Muzzin, you're done, stay home, protect your personal health.

Nemec looks very interesting, but I think they would want to send some salary this way.

Nemec + Bratt + for Marner?

Risky move, Bratt is a few tiers below Marner, and Nemec is not a sure thing.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Nemec looks very interesting, but I think they would want to send some salary this way.

Nemec + Bratt + for Marner?

Risky move, Bratt is a few tiers below Marner, and Nemec is not a sure thing.

Yeah that would be a solid start, maybe a 2nd added.

I remember someone brought up the idea of Heiskenen for Marner before Heiskanen had played a game and everyone thought Miro was too unproven to do such a thing but now, you'd kill to make the deal.

You just need to be REALLY sure if you execute that trade.

 

[ACC1224]

You knew it would only be a matter of time.

MSN

 

[ToneDog]

If we are looking for a dman to replace Muzzin, please get one who has a shot and can QB our PP. Rielly is not a threat and it is not helping our #1 PP unit.

Dumba might become available but will command a bigger number than Chych who still has 3 years remaining with a nice cap hit.

 

[LeafGrief]

The issue here is, Nylanders salary is by far the cheapest of those core forwards. You're not exactly getting much depth out of it if you break it down, especially considering you also have to makeup the 70-80 points lost from him.

Part of this rebalancing may just naturally come when Tavares contract expires in a couple season paired with the upcoming anticipated spike in the cap ceiling in the 2024-2026 range.

Wouldn't get much depth this year, but if we're re-signing him to a 9m extension and picking up a Muzzin replacement by way of picks and prospects, we're going to continue being an extremely lean team even after JT's contract ends. That said, if Muzzin goes on LTIR and we move Nylander for a replacement, that's 12.6m out and ~6m(?) in, which does actually open up a fair bit of space.

I agree that there may be some natural rebalancing with the cap expanding. But if we're waiting on three years to pass as part of the plan to solve our depth issues, I think we need to consider alternatives.

As for the replacing the lost points I don't think it's written in stone that we need to remain a top2 offense in the league. It's not unreasonable to trade some offensive capability for defensive capability when we're among the best of the best offenses currently. We scored 315 goals last year, losing 40g outright would still have us as a top10 offense. We don't want to give that up if we don't have to ofc, but it's something we have the luxury of considering.

We're also going to need to replace Kerfoot (50p) and Bunting (50-60p) this summer as well. If we moved Nylander for a defenseman and that enabled us to sign Bunting to a reasonable deal, I think there's some decent value there. There's other ways of keeping Bunting, I'm sure, but that's part of the depth thinking.

 

[BertCorbeau]

You knew it would only be a matter of time.

MSN

Oh dear lord.

 

[stickty111]

Agreed. Nylander is right behind Matthews on my untouchable list. People may disagree but I’d rather trade Marner than Nylander.

I wouldn't trade any of them but if I had too probably Marner

 

[LeafSteel]

You knew it would only be a matter of time.

MSN

Unbelievable.

Just an awful, awful take.

This is what happens when Steve Simmons is your Mentor......

 

[stickty111]

The issue many find is why it always gets defaulted to trade Nylander. Why can't it be Marner? Nylander is the cheapest value on the team in terms of contract, and is a steal at his number. He also won't bring back as much as Marner would, and you save 4 million more.
Again teams don't trade Nylander level players to improve in other areas unless their name is the Oilers, and that was an awful trade for them.
You trade future pieces. If a Nylander trade does happen, it will be in the off season if the team doesn't reach its goal.
Dubas has the picks and prospects to make a big splash if he wants, without even thinking of Nylander.

Oh dear lord.

Unbelievable.

Just an awful, awful take.

This is what happens when Steve Simmons is your Mentor......

Let me guess, it's that Traikos article?

 

[LeafSteel]

The issue many find is why it always gets defaulted to trade Nylander. Why can't it be Marner? Nylander is the cheapest value on the team in terms of contract, and is a steal at his number. He also won't bring back as much as Marner would, and you save 4 million more.
Again teams don't trade Nylander level players to improve in other areas unless their name is the Oilers, and that was an awful trade for them.
You trade future pieces. If a Nylander trade does happen, it will be in the off season if the team doesn't reach its goal.
Dubas has the picks and prospects to make a big splash if he wants, without even thinking of Nylander.



Let me guess, it's that Traikos article?

Yes.

Milt Dunnell, he's not.