Speculation: Trade Thread Part XII

[haveandare]

What do you mean temper expectations? Nobody here is saying he'll be a superstar. Nobody has said he'll be a savior. He's a good, young, cost controlled player that happens to be available to take a chance on.

When you say it's a good idea to trade a top pairing D man for someone, it comes wight he implication that you think that player isn't going to be a gamble, and will definitely benefit the team in the long run.

 

[Raspewtin]

When you say it's a good idea to trade a top pairing D man for someone, it comes wight he implication that you think that player isn't going to be a gamble, and will definitely benefit the team in the long run.

Every player you can possibly trade for is a gamble. Trading for Crosby is even a gamble. What's your point? Don't trade unless they are an absolutely for sure thing?

Everyone wants young and cheap offensive talent, but aren't willing to deal the assets for it.

 

[Trxjw]

Actually, I have no idea who he is. I'm just saying a general rule of thumb is to try and temper expectations for prospects. They tend to fail more than they succeed.

So you're telling people to temper their expectations -- which nobody has actually set, mind you -- for a prospect that you've never even heard of? Sounds like being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian.

 

[Raspewtin]

And that chance comes at the expense of Callahan?

I said Girardi, not Callahan.

Then where do you want to get the offensive talent we need? And what assets are off limits to you? I can't come up with a better situation than the Connolly situation.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I said Girardi, not Callahan.

Then where do you want to get the offensive talent we need? And what assets are off limits to you? I can't come up with a better situation than the Connolly situation.

Even worse is Girardi. He means more to the success of the team than Callahan does.

I think both are off limits for a couple more years. They still are in their peaks and have productive years ahead.

I think Brassard, Del Zotto, J/D Moore, Boyle, Stralman, Dorsett, and Staal (only if he's unwilling to resign) are the assets you move to retool.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

So you're telling people to temper their expectations -- which nobody has actually set, mind you -- for a prospect that you've never even heard of? Sounds like being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian.

Sounds like a swan song i've heard too many times. That's what it sounds like.

 

[haveandare]

Every player you can possibly trade for is a gamble. Trading for Crosby is even a gamble. What's your point? Don't trade unless they are an absolutely for sure thing?

Everyone wants young and cheap offensive talent, but aren't willing to deal the assets for it.

Do I really need to explain that different players come with different levels of risk? And that a player who hasn't proven anything in the NHL comes with more risk than a player who has?

That's my point. Don't trade a first pairing d-man who can't be replaced right now for a winger who comes with a great deal of risk at the NHL level.

I want cheap and young offensive talent, not at the expense of a first pairing d-man, and definitely not when that cheap and young talent is a question mark at the NHL level.

 

[Raspewtin]

Even worse is Girardi. He means more to the success of the team than Callahan does.

I think both are off limits for a couple more years. They still are in their peaks and have productive years ahead.

I think Brassard, Del Zotto, J/D Moore, Boyle, Stralman, Dorsett, and Staal (only if he's unwilling to resign) are the assets you move to retool.

So basically, nothing of real value except Staal. Got it.

To get the players we need, we need to make trades like Callahan and Girardi. With Lundqvist back on his game, a top 10 pick will never be in this team's future. And that's where most elite talent is found.

 

[Raspewtin]

Do I really need to explain that different players come with different levels of risk? And that a player who hasn't proven anything in the NHL comes with more risk than a player who has?

That's my point. Don't trade a first pairing d-man who can't be replaced right now for a winger who comes with a great deal of risk at the NHL level.

I want cheap and young offensive talent, not at the expense of a first pairing d-man, and definitely not when that cheap and young talent is a question mark at the NHL level.

Well that's unfortunate because teams don't just give away young offensive talent for scraps.

All the established, young, talented scorers are not available.

You have too many expectations for a player that will be returned for someone that isn't exactly elite in Girardi.

Young offensive talent is more of a need than defense, in my opinion.

 

[Trxjw]

Sounds like a swan song i've heard too many times. That's what it sounds like.

The likelihood of Connolly being a very good NHL player is more likely than trading Brassard and Del Zotto for Kesler. Glass houses, etc.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

The likelihood of Connolly being a very good NHL player is more likely than trading Brassard and Del Zotto for Kesler. Glass houses, etc.

I didn't compare their likelihoods. Thought aloud for a move that I think would be mutually beneficial for both teams. Change of scenery deal. Vancouver is about to slump out. Torts gets his guys in, we make a move for the future.

Better than signing Statsny for a boatload of money in the offseason.

 

[Ail]

Any way you look at it you can't build a year to year competitor without taking risks. Sitting on Girardi and Callahan is a risk. Trading them is a risk. Boston took risks in trading Kessel and Seguin. Two way better players than Cally or Girardi. You have to give to get. Due diligence is required when taking risks but there is still always a risk.

Sitting on our hands forever will get this team nowhere just like trading everyone and their mother will.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

So basically, nothing of real value except Staal. Got it.

To get the players we need, we need to make trades like Callahan and Girardi. With Lundqvist back on his game, a top 10 pick will never be in this team's future. And that's where most elite talent is found.

This also isn't NHL '14. Team's don't just trade away their backbone in the middle of a playoff surge.

Sather will deal with Callahan and Girardi after the season if they remain unsigned. He doesn't punt the season to make a move to benefit the team in the future.

 

[Trxjw]

I didn't compare their likelihoods. Thought aloud for a move that I think would be mutually beneficial for both teams. Change of scenery deal. Vancouver is about to slump out. Torts gets his guys in, we make a move for the future.

Better than signing Statsny for a boatload of money in the offseason.

I don't see how downgrading from Kesler to Brassard just to add a struggling Del Zotto is mutually beneficial. Great for us, lousy for them.

Getting Stamkos for Del Zotto would be a better alternative to Stastny, that doesn't mean it's a realistic alternative.

 

[Raspewtin]

This also isn't NHL '14. Team's don't just trade away their backbone in the middle of a playoff surge.

Sather will deal with Callahan and Girardi after the season if they remain unsigned. He doesn't punt the season to make a move to benefit the team in the future.

Your point that we wont make this trade because we are surging is valid.

Thinking it's okay to deal with Girardi and Callahan if still unsigned after the season is absolutely not. If the deadline comes and neither are signed they should be traded. It's way too great of a risk to let them leave for nothing.

 

[haveandare]

Well that's unfortunate because teams don't just give away young offensive talent for scraps.

All the established, young, talented scorers are not available.

You have too many expectations for a player that will be returned for someone that isn't exactly elite in Girardi.

Young offensive talent is more of a need than defense, in my opinion.

I'm aware of that, as is probably everyone around here. That doesn't mean we all agree though. I don't think I have too high expectations for Girardi. I just don't think asking for an actual NHL player is only reserved for the elite in terms of trade value. If the best they can get for him is a guy who hasn't proven much at this level, I don't think it's wise to do it. You can disagree. These are opinions.

I disagree. Offensive talent on the backend and another 1/2 C are the biggest needs to me by far. Trading Girardi for a winger opens another hole on D and fills a void that isn't really that empty right now compared to others.

 

[haveandare]

Any way you look at it you can't build a year to year competitor without taking risks. Sitting on Girardi and Callahan is a risk. Trading them is a risk. Boston took risks in trading Kessel and Seguin. Two way better players than Cally or Girardi. You have to give to get. Due diligence is required when taking risks but there is still always a risk.

Sitting on our hands forever will get this team nowhere just like trading everyone and their mother will.

Boston also had depth that we can't even dream about when the traded Kessel and Seguin both. We don't have the depth on wing or the depth at defense to replace either Cally or Girardi. Boston had plenty of forwards that could, and that now have, stepped into the places those guys were in.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Any way you look at it you can't build a year to year competitor without taking risks. Sitting on Girardi and Callahan is a risk. Trading them is a risk. Boston took risks in trading Kessel and Seguin. Two way better players than Cally or Girardi. You have to give to get. Due diligence is required when taking risks but there is still always a risk.

Sitting on our hands forever will get this team nowhere just like trading everyone and their mother will.

Both players traded in the offseason. The time to trade Callahan and Girardi was during the offseason. Now we're in the middle of a playoff hunt.

This is a business. Trading away Girardi and Callahan now might be the smarter move. It will also give the impression to fans that we're packing it in for the season. They pay high premiums for tickets. Higher than any where else in the NHL, more or less. How do you justify the price per ticket if you give up? Fans will refuse to buy tickets. Lost revenue. Let's say you miss the playoffs. Lost revenue. What about jersey sales? Callahan is consistently in the top 10. Lost revenue. And what about locker room effect? Talk about taking away two core guys who have instilled a hard working ethic in this locker room. Let's say the team becomes lazy and unfocused and reverts back to their ways of the early 00s? Where in our organization are our heart guys? We called up Dubi, Cally, Staal, and Girardi up together. Potentially, we'd be without all 4 in a season and a half with no similar players in our farm.

Pipe dream to trade both, or even one, at this point in the season.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I don't see how downgrading from Kesler to Brassard just to add a struggling Del Zotto is mutually beneficial. Great for us, lousy for them.

Getting Stamkos for Del Zotto would be a better alternative to Stastny, that doesn't mean it's a realistic alternative.

Kesler's offensive output has dropped steeply. Marred by an injury, and recent inconsistent play.

That Vancouver team is struggling to stay afloat. They struggled last year.

He's not a 1c. He's struggling to put up 2c production too. He only has 5 points more than Brassard right now, playing on their 2nd line.

 

[Raspewtin]

I'm aware of that, as is probably everyone around here. That doesn't mean we all agree though. I don't think I have too high expectations for Girardi. I just don't think asking for an actual NHL player is only reserved for the elite in terms of trade value. If the best they can get for him is a guy who hasn't proven much at this level, I don't think it's wise to do it. You can disagree. These are opinions.

I disagree. Offensive talent on the backend and another 1/2 C are the biggest needs to me by far. Trading Girardi for a winger opens another hole on D and fills a void that isn't really that empty right now compared to others.

Well, what actual NHL player? Because those are probably astronomically more expensive, and wont be returned for a UFA Girardi. I don't think Girardi is going to resign to a good contract, so I want him traded, that is my opinion. The reason Connolly is a good option is because his value isn't very high, but he's still a blue chip prospect. Those are the deals you make, because dealing for established young stars doesn't ever happen, barring serious roster turnover.

I agree that those are our glaring needs. Offense from the D, and a 1st center or 1B center. But we still need a top 6 winger to complete Nash-Kreider-Zuccarello. Hagelin isn't a top 6 winger in his own right. And when we don't have an elite center to make his linemates better, we need all the elite wingers we can get. If we had a #1 center, Connolly wouldn't be as much of a need. It does open up a hole, but when you realize how much of real risks losing Girardi for nothing, or overpaying him badly are, it's not hard to see why a trade should be considered.

 

[Raspewtin]

Kesler's offensive output has dropped steeply. Marred by an injury, and recent inconsistent play.

That Vancouver team is struggling to stay afloat. They struggled last year.

He's not a 1c. He's struggling to put up 2c production too. He only has 5 points more than Brassard right now, playing on their 2nd line.

Kesler is also a lot more multi dimensional than Brassard. Physical, really tough to play against, great on faceoffs, can score more goals, former Selke winner, PKer, etc. No matter which way you look at it, Kesler for Brassard + MDZ is not fair value.

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

Your point that we wont make this trade because we are surging is valid.

Thinking it's okay to deal with Girardi and Callahan if still unsigned after the season is absolutely not. If the deadline comes and neither are signed they should be traded. It's way too great of a risk to let them leave for nothing.

So if they are unsigned after the season what should the Rangers do?

What if Callahan or Girardi decide they want to wait until the season plays out before signing a contract?

What if as an organization the Rangers think the best thing to do is wait until after the season?

What do the Rangers do if a team isn't willing to meet the teams asking price for each player? Do you trade them for anything?

The risk of losing them for nothing isn't too great if another team isn't willing to meet the Rangers demands. Do you want to give the players away?

Can you at least acknowledge the likely scenario in all this...That the Rangers aren't satisfied with either the contract demands for the player OR the offers from other teams.

 

[Ail]

The point was about takng risks. Not about timing and depth. It was still a huge risk to trade those players. You have to take risks to win. In fact the risks taken in '94 may have helped win their last Cup.

Trading for Conolly is an example of a risk it doesn't matter the price or when. This team doesn't have the depth to continue playing it safe or riding things out.

 

[haveandare]

Well, what actual NHL player? Because those are probably astronomically more expensive, and wont be returned for a UFA Girardi. I don't think Girardi is going to resign to a good contract, so I want him traded, that is my opinion. The reason Connolly is a good option is because his value isn't very high, but he's still a blue chip prospect. Those are the deals you make, because dealing for established young stars doesn't ever happen, barring serious roster turnover.

I agree that those are our glaring needs. Offense from the D, and a 1st center or 1B center. But we still need a top 6 winger to complete Nash-Kreider-Zuccarello. Hagelin isn't a top 6 winger in his own right. And when we don't have an elite center to make his linemates better, we need all the elite wingers we can get. If we had a #1 center, Connolly wouldn't be as much of a need.

Can't say I have an NHL player in mind, since I don't particularly want to trade Girardi and haven't thought too much about it.

I agree with your logic on why Connolly is a good option, and if an offensive D-man or center were in the same position, I'd likely agree that this deal would be worthwhile. Personally, and I get that people disagree, I'm 100% sure Callahan is a top 6 winger, and a good one, and I'd be very surprised if he's not in NY next year. Hagelin is a passable top 6 winger and a good third line guy IMO.

I guess my issue is that we have these two assets that could fetch good returns. Beyond them, we don't have a lot of guys that the team can afford to trade for young pieces, or that will be a position to be traded for young pieces. I'm not crazy about moving either of them due to lack of replacements, but I think that if either is going to be moved, the return absolutely has to fill the holes that this team has, the primary holes - offensive D who can take a shift or another 1/2ish center. If they aren't going to return guys who either are those players now or have reasonable prospects of being those players in the future, I think you gotta try to hold on to them. Also, I realize that UFAs don't get traded for pro sects who might be 1/2 centers even, but they'd be good cornerstones of a deal, and I'd be okay with adding a pick/prospect if it meant getting someone who really filled one of those holes.

 

[Ail]

So if they are unsigned after the season what should the Rangers do?

What if Callahan or Girardi decide they want to wait until the season plays out before signing a contract?

What if as an organization the Rangers think the best thing to do is wait until after the season?

What do the Rangers do if a team isn't willing to meet the teams asking price for each player? Do you trade them for anything?

The risk of losing them for nothing isn't too great if another team isn't willing to meet the Rangers demands. Do you want to give the players away.

Can you at least acknowledge the likely scenario in all this...That the Rangers aren't satisfied with either the contract demands for the player OR the offers from other teams.

Yes and I think that is where they stand until at least the deadline. It would be stupid of them to not at least wait until the deadline and hear all offers for both Callahan and Girardi. Teams get desperate.