Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXXX

[Burrowsaurus]

Tolvanen 3 in 5 games. But this board said he’s an ahler and we “already have lucchini”

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Tolvanen 3 in 5 games. But this board said he’s an ahler and we “already have lucchini”

Who called him an AHLer?

I am guessing the stumbling block was his contract. Dont want to take on a guy who might not be in your plans next year and then you have to dump him off. We already have enough dumps to make.

That said, I was in favour of grabbing him.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Not outbidding Toronto for Timmins is inexcusable.

Why outbid other teams for good players when you can outbid yourself for the Travis Harmonics?

Pierre Dorion

 

[Sensinitis]

Tolvanen 3 in 5 games. But this board said he’s an ahler and we “already have lucchini”

The recency bias here almost hurts

 

[JD1]

I wouldn't expect much from him this year because of the injury, but he's still an upgrade over what we are getting out of Joseph imo.

My issue is upgrading Joseph doesn't really address a need, so he wouldn't be my target, particularly at the cost of Brannstrom. I do feel some really underate Duclair though.

I don't think it's fair to state "what we're getting out of Joseph" without acknowledging that he's played most of his season with guys that were playing above slot.

An injury cost us Pinto as a 3C.

A "contract dispute" cost us Formenton

The above two events may have cost us Joseph as a productive 3rd liner. So it's evident he's not a line driver as a winger on the 3rd line, but I just don't think it's fair to criticize him to any great extent when he hasn't really had legit linemates

Bottom six were your words on more than one occasion, which by definition includes the 4th line, a line he'd never actually play on here.

Joseph has not looked good at all this year in the top 6, I'd chalk up last year to the adrenaline of being traded, a very small sample, with an unsustainable 21% shooting percentage as well as what would amount to one of the leagues top on ice sh% at 13.73 all situations.

It's a discussion forum, if you don't like being challenged when you make a dubious claim, maybe lay off the hot takes.

Has Joseph played in the top 6?

 

[Micklebot]

I don't think it's fair to state "what we're getting out of Joseph" without acknowledging that he's played most of his season with guys that were playing above slot.

An injury cost us Pinto as a 3C.

A "contract dispute" cost us Formenton

The above two events may have cost us Joseph as a productive 3rd liner. So it's evident he's not a line driver as a winger on the 3rd line, but I just don't think it's fair to criticize him to any great extent when he hasn't really had legit linemates

We have eyes, we can differtiate his play from that of his linemates. He's often looked like the least effective on his line despite linemates being overslotted.

Has Joseph played in the top 6?

I thought he had from time to time when we've been juggling the lines a bit, nothing long term though, maybe I'm mis-remembering, but frankly he's been very underwhelming this year.

It's interesting to see pushback on the claim that a guy who averaged 58 pts and 29 goals per 82 games over his las 200+ games since being traded to Ottawa, is an upgrade over a guy who's career high is 26 pts 4 years ago and averaged 13 goals and 29 pts per 82 in the same period.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The recency bias here almost hurts

Well yes he recently was on waivers some recently wanted to claim him and he has recently scored some goals to help
His team.

And our bottom six has recently been not very good. He could have helped in the most recent games.

 

[Philadelphia Collins]

Claiming Tolvanen seemed like a no-brainer at the time, especially since there aren’t really any prospects knocking down the door besides maybe Egor. 1st rounder, had a great scoring touch when he was drafted, why not?

This teams bottom 6 is allergic to offense, It seems like 2/3s of the odd man rushes they create don’t even result in a shot on net.
Brassard/Gambrell/Kelly/Watson could all be replaced with AHLers hungry for a job

 

[Tuna99]

Why outbid other teams for good players when you can outbid yourself for the Travis Harmonics?

Pierre Dorion

“They wanted a 4th and I gave them a 3rd”

 

[Sensinitis]

Well yes he recently was on waivers some recently wanted to claim him and he has recently scored some goals to help
His team.

And our bottom six has recently been not very good. He could have helped in the most recent games.

Yes and the sample size is recent and small and he wouldn’t have had the same opportunities on our team on the PP and his numbers will most likely go down and you’ll never talk about him again

 

[Ice-Tray]

We have eyes, we can differtiate his play from that of his linemates. He's often looked like the least effective on his line despite linemates being overslotted.

I thought he had from time to time when we've been juggling the lines a bit, nothing long term though, maybe I'm mis-remembering, but frankly he's been very underwhelming this year.

It's interesting to see pushback on the claim that a guy who averaged 58 pts and 29 goals per 82 games over his las 200+ games since being traded to Ottawa, is an upgrade over a guy who's career high is 26 pts 4 years ago and averaged 13 goals and 29 pts per 82 in the same period.

Personally, I have no interest in Hoffman 2.0. You do, so good on you. Push back isn’t needed, because you’re welcome to your opinion, there’s room for it. Others such as myself don’t see it as a good fit, and that’s ok too.

I want better defensive players on the team period, but especially on the third line. You want a one pretty one dimensional winger who you hope can score lots, that’s a fine position to take.

He wouldn’t be putting up those Florida numbers here though obviously, and your ’pace’ argument about when he was here included a pretty epic cold streak over the course of the second half of the season. When he isn’t scoring he isn’t doing much, which is why he’s bounced around so much and was had for basically nothing when we let him go. To me he’s not a player we should want or need.

As for Joseph, we’ll see how he does when our third line is back, he hasn’t exactly had much runway so far, but if we’re trading him, I hope it’s for cap space so that we can add a pricier defender.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Claiming Tolvanen seemed like a no-brainer at the time, especially since there aren’t really any prospects knocking down the door besides maybe Egor. 1st rounder, had a great scoring touch when he was drafted, why not?

This teams bottom 6 is allergic to offense, It seems like 2/3s of the odd man rushes they create don’t even result in a shot on net.
Brassard/Gambrell/Kelly/Watson could all be replaced with AHLers hungry for a job

It’s possible that they really don’t want to add any salary until the see why DBC wants (probably already know ballpark) and see if/how they can get rid of Zaitsev’s dollars.

1.5 might not seem like much, but we might be that close to the cap where we’ll need to bring up a guy like Grieg or Soks or Crookshank to spread the last bucks around.

I don’t think people really realize how close we are to the cap next season, and how important it is to make sure we have space for the important pieces first. We need help on D, we need DBC, we need Pinto, and we need a goalie.

The rest has to wait. It’s so strange for this team to be having to make cap ceiling considerations!

 

[Senator Stanley]

Not outbidding Toronto for Timmins is inexcusable.

Jim Clark continuing to run our pro scouting makes absolutely no sense. He's been in charge since 2014 and we have been terrible at pro scouting during that entire time.

 

[HSF]

Jim Clark continuing to run our pro scouting makes absolutely no sense. He's been in charge since 2014 and we have been terrible at pro scouting during that entire time.

but no RD is avaliable!!!

It’s possible that they really don’t want to add any salary until the see why DBC wants (probably already know ballpark) and see if/how they can get rid of Zaitsev’s dollars.

1.5 might not seem like much, but we might be that close to the cap where we’ll need to bring up a guy like Grieg or Soks or Crookshank to spread the last bucks around.

I don’t think people really realize how close we are to the cap next season, and how important it is to make sure we have space for the important pieces first. We need help on D, we need DBC, we need Pinto, and we need a goalie.

The rest has to wait. It’s so strange for this team to be having to make cap ceiling considerations!

i mean worst case if you can't afford tolvenen you move him later

these excuses are poor

 

[Ice-Tray]

but no RD is avaliable!!!


i mean worst case if you can't afford tolvenen you move him later

these excuses are poor

Not really, because you can’t always ‘just move him later’.

This is the kind of no pressure no consequences opinions that us fans have the luxury of making.

I’d be fine with a flier on one of the various D men that come available, especially the RD, but for a forward to play in he bottom 6 when we already know that we can’t afford him going into next season, yeah I’ll pass and avoid the headache of trying to flip him out later when teams know you’re looking to dump him for nothing.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Could have picked up Ethan Bear for cheaper than what we gave up for Hamonic (3rd vs 5th) as well.

He would have easily been the team's 2nd best RD.

 

[Micklebot]

Personally, I have no interest in Hoffman 2.0. You do, so good on you. Push back isn’t needed, because you’re welcome to your opinion, there’s room for it. Others such as myself don’t see it as a good fit, and that’s ok too.

I want better defensive players on the team period, but especially on the third line. You want a one pretty one dimensional winger who you hope can score lots, that’s a fine position to take.

He wouldn’t be putting up those Florida numbers here though obviously, and your ’pace’ argument about when he was here included a pretty epic cold streak over the course of the second half of the season. When he isn’t scoring he isn’t doing much, which is why he’s bounced around so much and was had for basically nothing when we let him go. To me he’s not a player we should want or need.

As for Joseph, we’ll see how he does when our third line is back, he hasn’t exactly had much runway so far, but if we’re trading him, I hope it’s for cap space so that we can add a pricier defender.

Except he's not Hoffman, he's offensively orientated yes but plays a more complete game than Hoffman ever did as evidenced by the fact that he was a regular penalty killer for us, and his Florida numbers were not far off from what he did put up here so the claim that he can only put up offense he does because there's something in the water in Florida is misleading at best.

He did have a ~15-20 game cold streak before finding his groove a bit in his final 9 games with us, if he wasn't a bit streaky he'd be commanding a lot more than 3 mil though. If you knit picked Joseph's game to the same degree as you want to for Duclair, you'd be trying to convince people he's an AHL'r, a third of his production this year comes from one game, at least with Duclair his "he's not on a cold streak" games outnumbered his games on a cold streak.

He's undoubtedly a better player than we've seen from Joseph here or with Tbay, at least when healthy. There's legit concern about his Achilles and preferring to allocate the money elsewhere is reasonable too, but to say he's not an upgrade?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Not that I see Duclair as high caliber or as much of a potential defensive liability as Hoffman, but #68 contributed in the clutch quite a bit and was a big contributor to our CF run and the Hammond run. Seems like that gets forgotten sometimes. Guys like that can be a concern when things aren't going well for the team, and Hoff is an extreme example not really comparable to Duclair, but they often fit right in otherwise, even though their life span per team runs out quicker. It's fine to want to build a team the way we all do, but imo it's a fallacy that guys like that can't or don't contribute to the ultimate goal of winning too. Puzzle pieces. Just my opinion, but high skill, high reward type guys even if they're the same type to loaf on the back check when they're losing 6-1 or well below .500, can be of great use to a lot of competitive teams.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Except he's not Hoffman, he's offensively orientated yes but plays a more complete game than Hoffman ever did as evidenced by the fact that he was a regular penalty killer for us, and his Florida numbers were not far off from what he did put up here so the claim that he can only put up offense he does because there's something in the water in Florida is misleading at best.

He did have a ~15-20 game cold streak before finding his groove a bit in his final 9 games with us, if he wasn't a bit streaky he'd be commanding a lot more than 3 mil though. If you knit picked Joseph's game to the same degree as you want to for Duclair, you'd be trying to convince people he's an AHL'r, a third of his production this year comes from one game, at least with Duclair his "he's not on a cold streak" games outnumbered his games on a cold streak.

He's undoubtedly a better player than we've seen from Joseph here or with Tbay, at least when healthy. There's legit concern about his Achilles and preferring to allocate the money elsewhere is reasonable too, but to say he's not an upgrade?

Again, he’s not a complete player, he does very little when he’s not scoring, which was painfully obvious for an entire half season when he played here, but hey, maybe he’s evolved his game? He’s on the PK for his speed on the counter, not because he’s a defensive stalwart, or solid two way player.

It’s the same story as to why he’s been bouncing around the league. Great scorer with speed to burn, but not much else and no ability to turn things up a notch. He’s far from the only player in this category, and they are frustrating to watch as we have had several over the years.

And that’s fine, there’s room for that in the league, and he’s much more of an offensive threat than Joseph, so an upgrade in the regard I agree. But he’s not a guy that I want to trade for. Making a trade to upgrade the scoring and downgrade the forecheck and defensive play is pretty zero sum right now for this team.

The exact last thing we need are more players that half ass, and don’t play D. We could also use our third line back for a bit to see how they can actually build chemistry before passing solid judgment as well I suppose.

As I said, I’d rather see Joseph traded for help in D or to clear salary for help on D, because I don’t see Duclair as an overall upgrade on our team’s bottom six. I see him scoring more, and being frustrating without the puck.

But hey, if he’s now a complete player after a season in Florida, then why not try a straight swap….

 

[Ice-Tray]

Not that I see Duclair as high caliber or as much of a potential defensive liability as Hoffman, but #68 contributed in the clutch quite a bit and was a big contributor to our CF run and the Hammond run. Seems like that gets forgotten sometimes. Guys like that can be a concern when things aren't going well for the team, and Hoff is an extreme example not really comparable to Duclair, but they often fit right in otherwise, even though their life span per team runs out quicker. It's fine to want to build a team the way we all do, but imo it's a fallacy that guys like that can't or don't contribute to the ultimate goal of winning too. Puzzle pieces. Just my opinion, but high skill, high reward type guys even if they're the same type to loaf on the back check when they're losing 6-1 or well below .500, can be of great use to a lot of competitive teams.

I don’t disagree, but when I look at the team and the roles available, I think it’s fair to say that Hoff wasn’t a guy you wanted on the third line with defensive responsibilities. He was a top six scoring winger.

We have a full top six with better players than Duclair, so max he’d be third line winger with Motte and Pinto, which I’m not sure is exactly a situation that uses his strengths without highlighting his weaknesses. I’d not dislike the player, I’d dislike the fit.

If we were a legit top six scoring winger short and someone needed pushing down, sure, but we really aren’t.

But hell, maybe a Formenton/Motte/Grieg Pinto Duclair third line would be awesome. Personally I’m just a lot more tired of piss poor defensive play and effort than I am with team scoring in general, so this kind of fantasy swap is probably just more irritating to me.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Yes and the sample size is recent and small and he wouldn’t have had the same opportunities on our team on the PP and his numbers will most likely go down and you’ll never talk about him again

Why wouldn’t he have the same opportunities ?
He would be the tigger man on pp2

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I don’t disagree, but when I look at the team and the roles available, I think it’s fair to say that Hoff wasn’t a guy you wanted on the third line with defensive responsibilities. He was a top six scoring winger.

We have a full top six with better players than Duclair, so max he’d be third line winger with Motte and Pinto, which I’m not sure is exactly a situation that uses his strengths without highlighting his weaknesses. I’d not dislike the player, I’d dislike the fit.

If we were a legit top six scoring winger short and someone needed pushing down, sure, but we really aren’t.

But hell, maybe a Formenton/Motte/Grieg Pinto Duclair third line would be awesome. Personally I’m just a lot more tired of piss poor defensive play and effort than I am with team scoring in general, so this kind of fantasy swap is probably just more irritating to me.

That's fair. I like the salary and potential at least of the theoretical slotting on the 3rd line for Duclair, but I don't think it's realistic or worth much discussion. For the sake of the argument at hand, I would do a 1 for 1 for Joseph and be very happy about it, but that's as far as I'll go. But considering the cap issues you raise, I'd be just as happy to not have Joseph and his contract.

Ironically, Hoffman probably worked best on the team in a middle six or even more so 3rd line role like when he played with Pageau and Pyatt. Same thing in Florida where he put up career numbers playing down the lineup, granted I didn't follow as closely and was likely getting a lot of PP time.

 

[Very Stable Genius]

Jim Clark continuing to run our pro scouting makes absolutely no sense. He's been in charge since 2014 and we have been terrible at pro scouting during that entire time.

We did hire Ryan Bowness as AGM and he was Director of Pro Scouting for Pittsburgh, so surely he has some input as well.

 

[Ouroboros]

Eeli Tolvanen is the new Rudy Balcers.

 

[Micklebot]

Again, he’s not a complete player, he does very little when he’s not scoring, which was painfully obvious for an entire half season when he played here, but hey, maybe he’s evolved his game? He’s on the PK for his speed on the counter, not because he’s a defensive stalwart, or solid two way player.

It’s the same story as to why he’s been bouncing around the league. Great scorer with speed to burn, but not much else and no ability to turn things up a notch. He’s far from the only player in this category, and they are frustrating to watch as we have had several over the years.

And that’s fine, there’s room for that in the league, and he’s much more of an offensive threat than Joseph, so an upgrade in the regard I agree. But he’s not a guy that I want to trade for. Making a trade to upgrade the scoring and downgrade the forecheck and defensive play is pretty zero sum right now for this team.

The exact last thing we need are more players that half ass, and don’t play D. We could also use our third line back for a bit to see how they can actually build chemistry before passing solid judgment as well I suppose.

As I said, I’d rather see Joseph traded for help in D or to clear salary for help on D, because I don’t see Duclair as an overall upgrade on our team’s bottom six. I see him scoring more, and being frustrating without the puck.

But hey, if he’s now a complete player after a season in Florida, then why not try a straight swap….

I didn't say he was a complete player, I said he was more complete than Hoffman. Duclair was on the PK because he was effective, no coach puts offensive guys on the PK solely for counterstrike ability, they need to be able to kill penalties first. He wasn't a stalwart defensively but he also wasn't a constant liability out there like you are trying to suggest. I'd also argue Joseph's defensive acumen is getting overstated here,

We have been in a huge drought scoring 5v5 and are currently bottom 5 in the league scoring 5v5, maybe a little bit of scoring punch from the third line would help, right now our 4th liners in Kastelic, Watson and Kelly have the same amount of ES goals at 6 as our third liners in Brassard, Joseph and Motte with Joseph having a big old goose egg. Third lines need to chip in, ours really hasn't been doing that, heck, two of Brassards ES goals came playing up the lineup with Giroux and Batherson so you could argue the third line has been outscored by our 4th liners (Watson scored one playing up the line too so not by much).