Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXXX

[Snowwy]

Exact same thing as Matt Duchene. Not a lot of thought went into it - or maybe its was on page 117 of the rebuild plan. Or maybe they just make it up as they go along. Hard to tell because the plan isn’t good and neither is the GM so it’s hard to figure out where the plan and just plain stupidity intersect

Imagine thinking like this..

 

[Loach]

Exact same thing as Matt Duchene. Not a lot of thought went into it - or maybe its was on page 117 of the rebuild plan. Or maybe they just make it up as they go along. Hard to tell because the plan isn’t good and neither is the GM so it’s hard to figure out where the plan and just plain stupidity intersect

Matt Duchesne....yup. When we got DeBrincat, my first thought was Wow, second one was Who gets moved out to keep him?

 

[TheNewEra]

Well, Cat won't be making $83.5 m next year, so that would be true.

The devil in the detail is what happens with the other 21 or 22 players they need to fit in.

Not a problem for those with powerful easy buttons though.

Debrincat gets a 1.4-2.4 raise off his current cap hit
Pinto gets anywhere from a 2-3.6 million raise off his current cap hit (depending on if we bridge)
Zub gets a 1.5-3.5 million raise off his current cap

4.9-9.5 is a rough range for those 3 increases

capfriendly has ottawa at 21 million in cap space, if we add in the minimum 1 in increase thats 22 million in cap.

If we factor in those 3 resignings and go with the maximum amount that would mean we would have 13 players signed, would need to sign 7 players at minimum (most likely 8) and have 12.5 million in cap.

If we factor in grieg, jbd and crookshank into the lineup and we could most likely bring bran back for cheap thta would be about 4 million in cap combined. So another 3 players and 8.5 million in cap which is doable and this isnt factoring in a zaitsev and or joseph trade.

Tkachuk-Stutzle-Giroux
Debrincat-Norris-Batherson
Grieg-Pinto-Joseph
Crookshank-Kastelic-XXX
Kelly

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-XXXX
Brannstrom-JBD
Zaitsev

Forsberg
XXXX

The tricky part will be that if we arent able to trade zaitsev and/or Joseph then we might have to promote a goalie internally or get a cheap backup if we want to focus on a top 4 dman. I say that because if a top 4 dman costs us 5 million then we arent going to get a good backup/1b option for 2.5 million

 

[Bevans]

You are assuming Dorion thinks through his moves in advance of making them.

Of all the legitimate criticisms you can make of Dorion "not thinking through moves" is not one of them.

He consistently makes complicated hair-brain moves that are more complex than almost any other team in the league.

Hes a galaxy brain GM. The problem is he thinks too much, not too little.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Debrincat gets a 1.4-2.4 raise off his current cap hit
Pinto gets anywhere from a 2-3.6 million raise off his current cap hit (depending on if we bridge)
Zub gets a 1.5-3.5 million raise off his current cap

4.9-9.5 is a rough range for those 3 increases

capfriendly has ottawa at 21 million in cap space, if we add in the minimum 1 in increase thats 22 million in cap.

If we factor in those 3 resignings and go with the maximum amount that would mean we would have 13 players signed, would need to sign 7 players at minimum (most likely 8) and have 12.5 million in cap.

If we factor in grieg, jbd and crookshank into the lineup and we could most likely bring bran back for cheap thta would be about 4 million in cap combined. So another 3 players and 8.5 million in cap which is doable and this isnt factoring in a zaitsev and or joseph trade.

Tkachuk-Stutzle-Giroux
Debrincat-Norris-Batherson
Grieg-Pinto-Joseph
Crookshank-Kastelic-XXX
Kelly

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-XXXX
Brannstrom-JBD
Zaitsev

Forsberg
XXXX

The tricky part will be that if we arent able to trade zaitsev and/or Joseph then we might have to promote a goalie internally or get a cheap backup if we want to focus on a top 4 dman. I say that because if a top 4 dman costs us 5 million then we arent going to get a good backup/1b option for 2.5 million

The Alex Debrincat thread is useful. It has roster and AAV numbers for 2023-24. It's a little easier to visualize in that format.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Exact same thing as Matt Duchene. Not a lot of thought went into it - or maybe its was on page 117 of the rebuild plan. Or maybe they just make it up as they go along. Hard to tell because the plan isn’t good and neither is the GM so it’s hard to figure out where the plan and just plain stupidity intersect

The duchene trade was totally fine in practice. They wanted to improve their top line center. They did that. Then the team imploded. If that team would have taken off we likely would have signed duchene stone and karlsson.

 

[Tuna99]

The duchene trade was totally fine in practice. They wanted to improve their top line center. They did that. Then the team imploded. If that team would have taken off we likely would have signed duchene stone and karlsson.

Same as Debrincat as in it was a short term move at a big expense that had the risk of the player moving after 82 games.

It’s not that Duchene didn’t work out which he didn’t at all, the poor thing about the decision was no extension meant the second guessing of the contract took hold immediately and you have a player you made a big love for looking for the exit as soon as he arrived - it was a bad fit from the start.

Debrincat is a bit different but if you miss the playoffs how do you commit $9 million a season to a player who ain’t even your top 5/6 best players and not even a top 3 winger on the team.

Just don’t see this move making sense long term - especially when that money should be allocated to defence first

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

The duchene trade was totally fine in practice. They wanted to improve their top line center. They did that. Then the team imploded. If that team would have taken off we likely would have signed duchene stone and karlsson.

Yeah, I think as much as people point and say "the team was obviously about to fall off a cliff", I don't think the profile was ever AS bad as how we ended up. Like yeah, we definitely weren't more than a borderline playoff team, but we also absolutely didn't have a bottom 3-5 roster.

Even now, 5 years later, the following are NHL players who were on our team or in our system... and some of them are still very good:

Formenton - Duchene - Batherson
Paul - Pageau - Stone
Hoffman - Brassard - White
Dzingel - L. Brown

Chabot - Karlsson
Borowiecki - Ceci
Englund - Wideman

Anderson

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Same as Debrincat as in it was a short term move at a big expense that had the risk of the player moving after 82 games.

It’s not that Duchene didn’t work out which he didn’t at all, the poor thing about the decision was no extension meant the second guessing of the contract took hold immediately and you have a player you made a big love for looking for the exit as soon as he arrived - it was a bad fit from the start.

Debrincat is a bit different but if you miss the playoffs how do you commit $9 million a season to a player who ain’t even your top 5/6 best players and not even a top 3 winger on the team.

Just don’t see this move making sense long term - especially when that money should be allocated to defence first

I don't think we can yet say that Debrincat isn't a top 3 winger on this team. In fact, I would argue he's absolutely been our 3rd best winger thus far, and he hasn't played his best hockey.

We have all season to come to a decision and we will be dealing from a position of strength, both in terms of finding a trade and negotiating a deal.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Same as Debrincat as in it was a short term move at a big expense that had the risk of the player moving after 82 games.

It’s not that Duchene didn’t work out which he didn’t at all, the poor thing about the decision was no extension meant the second guessing of the contract took hold immediately and you have a player you made a big love for looking for the exit as soon as he arrived - it was a bad fit from the start.

Debrincat is a bit different but if you miss the playoffs how do you commit $9 million a season to a player who ain’t even your top 5/6 best players and not even a top 3 winger on the team.

Just don’t see this move making sense long term - especially when that money should be allocated to defence first

Well, he is one the teams top 3 wingers? Top 2 actually. But that’s another debate. Yeah. There’s risk involved in the trade. Also risk involved in the duchene trade. sometimes you take the risks. I think debrincat is worth it. And I thought duchene at the spot I believed we were at. Was worth it too.

I don’t beleive duchene was looking for an exit as soon as he arrived.

 

[Tuna99]

I don't think we can yet say that Debrincat isn't a top 3 winger on this team. In fact, I would argue he's absolutely been our 3rd best winger thus far, and he hasn't played his best hockey.

We have all season to come to a decision and we will be dealing from a position of strength, both in terms of finding a trade and negotiating a deal.

I’d still put Brady, Giroux and Batherson ahead of him. And Stutzle, Norris, Chabot and Sandy ahead of him. He’s a good player - but a core player I don’t think so. Maybe at $6 million but not at $9 million +

Well, he is one the teams top 3 wingers? Top 2 actually. But that’s another debate. Yeah. There’s risk involved in the trade. Also risk involved in the duchene trade. sometimes you take the risks. I think debrincat is worth it. And I thought duchene at the spot I believed we were at. Was worth it too.

I don’t beleive duchene was looking for an exit as soon as he arrived.

Just don’t understand the short term commitment within the co tract of a rebuild. I don’t see the fit but that’s just me, I also didn’t like the Paul or Brown trades so my depth roster would be very different from Dorion’s

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I’d still put Brady, Giroux and Batherson ahead of him. And Stutzle, Norris, Chabot and Sandy ahead of him. He’s a good player - but a core player I don’t think so. Maybe at $6 million but not at $9 million +

Batherson, this year, has been a clear cut below Batherson imo. Giroux & Brady I'd agree with, but I think Debrincat can do things neither of them can and has a good chance of surpassing Giroux.

Batherson might have been better than Debrincat for the first 30 games of last year, but aside from that, Debrincat has been the better player by a clear margin. It's not like they are different ages, either: 4 months apart, same draft eligibility.

I will say, I definitely agree that Debrincat should not be getting $9 +. If that's what it comes to, I would move him, too. But I think we can get him in around $8.5m.

 

[guyzeur]

I’d still put Brady, Giroux and Batherson ahead of him. And Stutzle, Norris, Chabot and Sandy ahead of him. He’s a good player - but a core player I don’t think so. Maybe at $6 million but not at $9 million +



Just don’t understand the short term commitment within the co tract of a rebuild. I don’t see the fit but that’s just me, I also didn’t like the Paul or Brown trades so my depth roster would be very different from Dorion’s

Adapting to new team and teammates takes time. He's currently 2nd in pts on the team - almost a ppg, in spite of scoring at an abysmal 8%, well below his career average of 15%.

You're underestimating his potential and value to this team.

Your last comment is a huge telltale of your agenda against Dorion

 

[Tuna99]

Adapting to new team and teammates takes time. He's 2nd in pts on the team - almost a ppg, in spite of scoring at an abysmal 8%, well below his career average of 15%.

You're underestimating his potential and value to this team.

Your last comment is a huge telltale of your agenda against Dorion

If a guy on a comment site can have an agenda it is to cheer for a winning team. You keep Paul and Brown and you have a better team - keep your 2nd, 4th and Joseph and give me Paul and Brown back and this team is in a playoff spot

 

[guyzeur]

You want a playoff spot and I want a Stanley cup

 

[Micklebot]

Yeah, I think as much as people point and say "the team was obviously about to fall off a cliff", I don't think the profile was ever AS bad as how we ended up. Like yeah, we definitely weren't more than a borderline playoff team, but we also absolutely didn't have a bottom 3-5 roster.

Even now, 5 years later, the following are NHL players who were on our team or in our system... and some of them are still very good:

Formenton - Duchene - Batherson
Paul - Pageau - Stone
Hoffman - Brassard - White
Dzingel - L. Brown

Chabot - Karlsson
Borowiecki - Ceci
Englund - Wideman

Anderson

The team was trending the wrong way but you're right that it probably wasn't reasonable to expect things to go as bad as they did. My biggest issue with the trade at the time was we didn't really address an area of need. Turris was adequate at the time (didn't expect him to fall off so steep) but we desperately needed help on D to replace Methot.

Ideal world, we'd have traded Zibanejad for Duchene instead of Brassard, (or just kept Z) but that likely wasn't an option at the time.

 

[Big Muddy]

I don’t believe duchene was looking for an exit as soon as he arrived.

Duchene seemed to like that Nashville vibe & don't think that was a last minute thing. He fancies himself as a musician (doesn't really have the talent, but whatever), so Nashville had some appeal because of that.

Dorion got kind of locked on Duchene and pursued him for quite some time.

Not important I guess. He's gone now, and in the end, he was more or less a rental.

 

[Micklebot]

Duchene seemed to like that Nashville vibe & don't think that was a last minute thing. He fancies himself as a musician (doesn't really have the talent, but whatever), so Nashville had some appeal because of that.

Not important I guess. He's gone now, and in the end, he was more or less a rental.

He seemed pumped to play for a team with playoff aspirations and one coming off a deep run, but things went sideways the second we got back from the European road trip. In an alternative universe where we make the playoffs that year and none of the online bullying scandal between Hoffman's and Karlsson's happened, I think him re-signing here was a possibility.

I don't think it took long for him to start planning his exit, but given the circumstances I don't blame him.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

The team was trending the wrong way but you're right that it probably wasn't reasonable to expect things to go as bad as they did. My biggest issue with the trade at the time was we didn't really address an area of need. Turris was adequate at the time (didn't expect him to fall off so steep) but we desperately needed help on D to replace Methot.

Ideal world, we'd have traded Zibanejad for Duchene instead of Brassard, (or just kept Z) but that likely wasn't an option at the time.

Oh, by no means did we manage things as I would have, and there is no need for hindsight on that front.

If you look at DMen who were dealt that season, though, its clear we couldn't have done much. The best DMen dealt were McDonagh (who I believe had a NTC? and cost a ton, and wasn't dealt until the deadline), Ian Cole (acquired by us in the Brass deal and flipped immediately), and Holden.

That being the case, though, the logical thing to do was to hold onto Turris AND find a way to bring in Duchene. While, yeah, it's exciting to the players when you bring in a guy who is clearly an improvement, that's mitigated by losing a key player, one who was an absolute soldier by your side and instrumental in any success the team had in the past few years, on the very same day.

Just saying that as much as it wasn't a perfect move, it went about as badly as it possibly could have.

 

[Big Muddy]

He seemed pumped to play for a team with playoff aspirations and one coming off a deep run, but things went sideways the second we got back from the European road trip. In an alternative universe where we make the playoffs that year and none of the online bullying scandal between Hoffman's and Karlsson's happened, I think him re-signing here was a possibility.

I don't think it took long for him to start planning his exit, but given the circumstances I don't blame him.

I guess I relate to music/musician aspect. If that's something of interest to a person, they are often pretty passionate about it. Its certainly happened to me and has been a constant in my life for a long time.

 

[bicboi64]

I wonder what we'd look like today if Karlsson, Duchene, Stone, Pageau were still on the roster. We'd have Brady, but no Stu or Sanderson which in itself seems horrifying

 

[Micklebot]

I guess I relate to music/musician aspect. If that's something of interest to a person, they are often pretty passionate about it. Its certainly happened to me and has been a constant in my life for a long time.

I think Nsh was the obvious choice for him once he decided he was going to free agency, but you can't always pick your landing spot, there was no guarantee they'd want him, particularly with Turris and Johansson there and both expected to be quality top 6 centers at the time we traded for Duchene. It took Turris regressing hard to open the door, so like I said, had we played well and made the playoffs, maybe he doesn't start dreaming about other possibilities and gets comfortable here.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I’d still put Brady, Giroux and Batherson ahead of him. And Stutzle, Norris, Chabot and Sandy ahead of him. He’s a good player - but a core player I don’t think so. Maybe at $6 million but not at $9 million +



Just don’t understand the short term commitment within the co tract of a rebuild. I don’t see the fit but that’s just me, I also didn’t like the Paul or Brown trades so my depth roster would be very different from Dorion’s

Well we didn’t have a second line. And giroux is here short term. And batherson only has 3 years left after this.

I didn’t like the brown trade either.

Duchene seemed to like that Nashville vibe & don't think that was a last minute thing. He fancies himself as a musician (doesn't really have the talent, but whatever), so Nashville had some appeal because of that.

Dorion got kind of locked on Duchene and pursued him for quite some time.

Not important I guess. He's gone now, and in the end, he was more or less a rental.

Lots of players wouldn’t mind playing in Nashville. Lots wouldn’t mind playing in California. Same with New York. But they usually sign elsewhere. Duchene liked Ottawa.

 

[Big Muddy]

Well we didn’t have a second line. And giroux is here short term. And batherson only has 3 years left after this.

I didn’t like the brown trade either.


Lots of players wouldn’t mind playing in Nashville. Lots wouldn’t mind playing in California. Same with New York. But they usually sign elsewhere. Duchene liked Ottawa.

I never talked to Duchene, so I don't know. No worries though. We discuss ideas & opinions here. You have your opinion. See #795. It's hard to understand if you don't have that passion or musician's mentality.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I never talked to Duchene, so I don't know. No worries though. We discuss ideas & opinions here. You have your opinion. See #795. It's hard to understand if you don't have that passion or musician's mentality.

Yeah maybe he does just want to be a musician. But I feel like if he was that passionate about it he would have just forced a trade there a long time ago. If he truly does have that passion and musicians mentality