Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXXX

[HSF]

I'm thinking that Pinto and Sanderson are gonna come in much cheaper than people are expecting.

Pinto isn't going to score/pace 40 goals this year like Norris (around 25 maybe?), and Sanderson is going to slot behind Chabot likely at least the next two seasons. I also think Batherson's contract works against Pinto as well.

$4m and $6m AAV contracts over 5 years respectively?

Pinto is on pace for just below 40 points. I think he signs a short term prove it contract for fairly cheap

 

[Big Muddy]

I'm thinking that Pinto and Sanderson are gonna come in much cheaper than people are expecting.

Pinto isn't going to score/pace 40 goals this year like Norris (around 25 maybe?), and Sanderson is going to slot behind Chabot likely at least the next two seasons. I also think Batherson's contract works against Pinto as well.

$4m and $6m AAV contracts over 5 years respectively?

People are thinking about what the Senators did when they signed other key core young players like Tkachuk, Norris & Stutzle I would think. Very similar circumstances. If your Sanderson, you're probably looking at Chabot in terms of dollars, timing of the contract & term. It's human nature.

They could bridge, but if the cap goes up fairly significantly over the next several years, they'll be paying more eventually. I think the spreadsheets you are referring to had Pinto on a bridge iirc. But, I am guessing as to what you are referring to.

Another example was Marner. Leaf fans argued about what he was going to get. Look at what he did get. Thinking more of Sanderson here.

 

[Hale The Villain]

eh Giroux also did not start on the top unit which does not mean much. DJ was trying to create two units while giving his guys from last year a chance.

Start of the season placement does not really matter esp when you are one of the worst teams in the league. If anything it might show that those decisions were not the best ones

The Sens will probably lose Giroux in 2 years so keeping Cat is important. We can afford to add a defensemen. This is not a money issue. Its a GM trying to find a guy issue and having an anchor of a contract in Z

I suspect Z will be moved for two 2nds or something when we actually add another defensemen. Don't think that will be a huge issue

Unless Stutzle is going to play the 2nd PP, DeBrincat will be a #2 PP guy barring injury, and his poor performance YTD aside that's a waste of his talent.

We don't need a 8-9M forward to play 2nd line LW and 2nd PP. I saw the logic in acquiring him given the tremendous buyer's market we were in this past summer but it's probably best for the organization to trade him at the deadline, add a solid middle 6 forward at around half DeBrincat's salary, and use the remaining cap room and extra assets to improve the team on D and in goal.

You say Giroux is going to leave in 2 years but I doubt that is going to be the case. In 2 years we should be more competitive than we are now and I would be surprised if he left his hometown team in his late 30s. He's obviously not going to be as good as he is now but I think he could still be a solid top 6 guy in his latter years like Alfie was, given that similarly Giroux's best attribute is his hockey IQ, which isn't going away even as his body ages.

I've been saying for a decade that this team needs to become Nashville North if we want to be successful as a small market franchise. We would be much smarter building a team that can squeak out 3-2 wins against top teams as a result of top tier defense and goaltending than trying to build a team that can outscore it's defensive problems like Dorion has.

 

[HSF]

People are thinking about what the Senators did when they signed other key core young players like Tkachuk, Norris & Stutzle I would think. Very similar circumstances. They could bridge, but if the cap goes up fairly significantly over the next several years, they'll be paying more eventually. I think the spreadsheets you are referring to had Pinto on a bridge iirc. But, I am guessing as to what you are referring to.

Ya i had Pinto bridged at 3mill on a bridge.... So far this year he hasn't proven to worth a long term deal. I think we used that bullet on Norris. Pinto is on pace for a little less than 40 points so I think 3mill is the cap on what he gets

 

[HSF]

Unless Stutzle is going to play the 2nd PP, DeBrincat will be a #2 PP guy barring injury, and his poor performance YTD aside that's a waste of his talent.

We don't need a 8-9M forward to play 2nd line LW and 2nd PP. I saw the logic in acquiring him given the tremendous buyer's market we were in this past summer but it's probably best for the organization to trade him at the deadline, add a solid middle 6 forward at around half DeBrincat's salary, and use the remaining cap room and extra assets to improve the team on D and in goal.

You say Giroux is going to leave in 2 years but I doubt that is going to be the case. In 2 years we should be more competitive than we are now and I would be surprised if he left his hometown team in his late 30s. He's obviously not going to be as good as he is now but I think he could still be a solid top 6 guy in his latter years like Alfie was, given that similarly Giroux's best attribute is his hockey IQ, which isn't going away even as his body ages.

I've been saying for a decade that this team needs to become Nashville North if we want to be successful as a small market franchise. We would be much smarter building a team that can squeak out 3-2 wins against top teams as a result of top tier defense and goaltending than trying to build a team that can outscore it's defensive problems like Dorion has.

Even if Giroux stays I doubt its for as much money as he is getting now. It will probably be a 1 or 2 year deal and see how it goes. He won't be a main focal point and will be a complimentary player. The cap will also be above 90mill by then.

Dorion issue is not the cap. He can afford another defensemen if he wanted and has been trying to add one since getting Cat. The issue is Dorion does not want to pay the price that teams want so far

This is not a case of Cat vs Top 4. Its a GM who has not been able to make a deal yet

 

[bicboi64]

Pinto's play hasn't been as good as his first 10-15 games. I'm sure he'll pick it up again and end up with 35-40 points. He's on pace for 37 right now and we should be able to bridge him relatively cheap. He's shown the 2C responsibilities are a bit much for him so far (could change), but this will help us keep him longer imo. Unless of course he signs a Batherson type deal (I doubt he or anyone else does imo)

 

[GCK]

What raises are you giving them?

Give Zub 4.75 and DeBrincat 8.25 and watch the cap space disappear.

Guy has mire points and goals then Debrincat and is a HOF. Anyways

What does that have to do with your ridiculous statement that the swap would make us SC contenders.

 

[Big Muddy]

Ya i had Pinto bridged at 3mill on a bridge....

Yes, and the other poster's spreadsheet (the initial one) did as well.

 

[HSF]

Give Zub 4.75 and DeBrincat 8.25 and watch the cap space disappear.

should be possible with dumping Z

 

[Golden_Jet]

Relying on cheap ELC or cheap vets is the nature of the beast in the cap world

Yes you are more susceptible to injury but thats why good drafting is key for good team

Yep, that’s the leafs MO, bunch of minimum wagers in the bottom 6. How many teams have 7 rookies in their lineup, and do well.

 

[HSF]

Yep, that’s the leafs MO, bunch of minimum wagers in the bottom 6. How many teams have 7 rookies in their lineup, and do well.

avs, tampa tor etc all rely on cheap contracts in their bottom 6. Those are some of the best teams in the league

tampa traded 2 firsts for hagel and his 1.5 mill cap

rmr the cap is going to keep going up. 90 mill a year after in 25-26

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Yep, that’s the leafs MO, bunch of minimum wagers in the bottom 6. How many teams have 7 rookies in their lineup, and do well.

Ya, we rearrange the bottom six deck chairs every year for the last several years and look how many playoff rounds we won. LOL.

We were trading away picks the first year we had some success with players like Matthews in his first year. And then we traded for $11m pyjama boy to play 2C. Brilliant. Of course, then Marner, etc. had to be paid the big bucks after what they saw Tavares got. No surprise that we are always capped out.

Some similarities between Ottawa and early Leafs rebuild. We needed defense, especially RD. I guess I'm thinking about the similarity there, etc.

 

[TonySoprano11]

With Karlsson we are a Cup contender. Without Kalrsson we are a bottom
NHL team.

I know what i’d do:

Ott: EK
SJ: Debrincat, Thomson, Zaitsev (salary dump)

I think they would do a straight swap EK + 4M retained for Dcat

 

[HoweHullOrr]

avs, tampa tor etc all rely on cheap contracts in their bottom 6. Those are some of the best teams in the league

tampa traded 2 firsts for hagel and his 1.5 mill cap

rmr the cap is going to keep going up. 90 mill a year after in 25-26

Tampa and Colorado had a really good blueline as well.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Even if Giroux stays I doubt its for as much money as he is getting now. It will probably be a 1 or 2 year deal and see how it goes. He won't be a main focal point and will be a complimentary player. The cap will also be above 90mill by then.

Dorion issue is not the cap. He can afford another defensemen if he wanted and has been trying to add one since getting Cat. The issue is Dorion does not want to pay the price that teams want so far

This is not a case of Cat vs Top 4. Its a GM who has not been able to make a deal yet

And by that time Pinto and Greig will need new deals. If they develop as expected they'll eat up more than any savings from Giroux.

If he declines significantly and Pinto and Greig don't meet expectations we will have zero problem finding a good 2nd liner to complement the core of Stutzle, Tkachuk, Norris and Batherson. LW is the easiest position to find in hockey.

Dorion does have issues with cap this season. We couldn't afford to add a D with significant salary without Zaitsev going the other way, and after spending a lot of assets on DeBrincat I can see why he didn't want to part with a bunch more to add a top 4 D and dump Zaitsev in separate deals.

 

[GCK]

Unless Stutzle is going to play the 2nd PP, DeBrincat will be a #2 PP guy barring injury, and his poor performance YTD aside that's a waste of his talent.

We don't need a 8-9M forward to play 2nd line LW and 2nd PP. I saw the logic in acquiring him given the tremendous buyer's market we were in this past summer but it's probably best for the organization to trade him at the deadline, add a solid middle 6 forward at around half DeBrincat's salary, and use the remaining cap room and extra assets to improve the team on D and in goal.

You say Giroux is going to leave in 2 years but I doubt that is going to be the case. In 2 years we should be more competitive than we are now and I would be surprised if he left his hometown team in his late 30s. He's obviously not going to be as good as he is now but I think he could still be a solid top 6 guy in his latter years like Alfie was, given that similarly Giroux's best attribute is his hockey IQ, which isn't going away even as his body ages.

I've been saying for a decade that this team needs to become Nashville North if we want to be successful as a small market franchise. We would be much smarter building a team that can squeak out 3-2 wins against top teams as a result of top tier defense and goaltending than trying to build a team that can outscore it's defensive problems like Dorion has.

I would think summer would be a better market to trade Debrincat

 

[Hale The Villain]

I would think summer would be a better market to trade Debrincat

We should be able to get a haul for him at the deadline.

Rental price for a top line forward that's an upcoming UFA has traditionally been a 1st + good prospect + decent young player.

If you're a contender looking for scoring help you could trade for DeBrincat and either try to extend him, which means you'd be willing to pay more to get him long-term than spending the assets on a pure rental, or you could rent him for the playoffs and deal his RFA rights to a team he would sign with in the summer and recoup a lot of your assets given up to rent him.

This logic is the reason why a career 3rd liner in Lehkonen with 29 points in 58 games returned a 1st round drafted prospect (Barron) and a 2nd at last year's deadline. He was an RFA and the Avs knew when trading for him they could deal his rights in the off-season and at least get a 2nd back, making it worth paying a higher price than simply a pure UFA. It turns out Lehkonen ended up a perfect fit in Colorado so they re-signed him and let Burakovsky go instead, but it was still a win for them.

Unless the offers are really bad for some reason we should be able to get more at the deadline for ADB than waiting until the summer. Would be illogical to think otherwise for the reasons stated above.

 

[bert]

Pinto's play hasn't been as good as his first 10-15 games. I'm sure he'll pick it up again and end up with 35-40 points. He's on pace for 37 right now and we should be able to bridge him relatively cheap. He's shown the 2C responsibilities are a bit much for him so far (could change), but this will help us keep him longer imo. Unless of course he signs a Batherson type deal (I doubt he or anyone else does imo)

I think recently he is playing very well. Took him a while to get used to star players on his wings. He defered to them too much at the start he is playing with more confidence and being more selfish. That line is really starting to play well. I think theyre going to explode here soon.

 

[Golden_Jet]

avs, tampa tor etc all rely on cheap contracts in their bottom 6. Those are some of the best teams in the league

None of them have that many rookies..

We should be able to get a haul for him at the deadline.

Rental price for a top line forward that's an upcoming UFA has traditionally been a 1st + good prospect + decent young player.

If you're a contender looking for scoring help you could trade for DeBrincat and either try to extend him, which means you'd be willing to pay more to get him long-term than spending the assets on a pure rental, or you could rent him for the playoffs and deal his RFA rights to a team he would sign with in the summer and recoup a lot of your assets given up to rent him.

This logic is the reason why a career 3rd liner in Lehkonen with 29 points in 58 games returned a 1st round drafted prospect (Barron) and a 2nd at last year's deadline. He was an RFA and the Avs knew when trading for him they could deal his rights in the off-season and at least get a 2nd back, making it worth paying a higher price than simply a pure UFA. It turns out Lehkonen ended up a perfect fit in Colorado so they re-signed him and let Burakovsky go instead, but it was still a win for them.

Unless the offers are really bad for some reason we should be able to get more at the deadline for ADB than waiting until the summer. Would be illogical to think otherwise for the reasons stated above.

unsigned player rarely gets you more than a signed cost controlled player.

 

[HSF]

None of them have that many rookies..

unsigned player rarely gets you more than a signed cost controlled player.

okay then sign a free agent for cheap like we did Motte?

this really is not a big issue.

Tampa and Colorado had a really good blueline as well.

yup and we can afford that. Money is not an issue for improving the blueline

 

[Micklebot]

I think recently he is playing very well. Took him a while to get used to star players on his wings. He defered to them too much at the start he is playing with more confidence and being more selfish. That line is really starting to play well. I think theyre going to explode here soon.

Hope you are right, he's a big part of our future success imo

 

[Hale The Villain]

unsigned player rarely gets you more than a signed cost controlled player.

How many signed cost controlled players are traded at the deadline every year?

Most players dealt at the deadline are rentals. ADB is not a rental and should get more than what a typical top line forward rental gets, even if he's not coming with an extension in place (although that's a possibility too).

 

[Golden_Jet]

How many signed cost controlled players are traded at the deadline every year?

Most players dealt at the deadline are rentals. ADB is not a rental and should get more than what a typical top line forward rental gets, even if he's not coming with an extension in place (although that's a possibility too).

Less than signed, and yes rentals get less of a return.

 

[Salva Mea]

EK-Sandy together , it will be astral

 

[Pinto Bean]

Not to mention, if we're using the spreadsheet as a basis (thanks for making that btw), the question that continues to be glossed over is the anonymous 5.0M RD that appears on line 2.

Given that we're the Sens, we very likely will not be finding that via free agency so a trade makes far more sense. Also given that DeBrincat is slotted in as left wing 2, it means we'll be trading a collection of futures for this player. It continues to be alluded to that the remainder of the roster will be filled out by ELC's because "that's what good teams do" but it's ignored that we'll have to likely trade our top ELC's for whoever this mysterious RD is which obviously creates a pretty large problem when it comes to filling out the roster. We'll essentially have to put secondary prospects & AHL guys to fill everything out which will likely punish the Sens in most games.

The example I often see on the main board is Greig + 1st/JBD/Whatever for Chychrun so I'll use that as an example. If this trade were to go down we'd potentially be losing our 3rd line LW + and our bottom pairing DMAN in the spreadsheet and now our "cheap ELC's" will have to be replaced by even worse players.