Proposal: Trade Rumors/Proposals 2019-20 Part II

[SpezDispenser]

I'd like to get a 1st for Pageau, then sign him in the summer. I know it doesn't happen often, but this time, I think it could...

 

[Upgrayedd]

The idea that people were ok with tanking without the teams first rounder while trading all its elite players only to stop doing it when they actually have the first round pick is ass backwards. Last year was bar none the worst as a fan it could possibly have gone. Tanking without the first round pick while trading a franchise player and two other elite players and starting the season by trading the best player in franchise history. With all that pain people want to stop tanking all of a sudden when the team actually has a chance at a franchise player.... I just dont understand how people can be so short sighted. This organization commited to being horrible, dont stop when you actually might see a benefit to it.

The reason the team is so bad with no elite talent coming is its poor asset management. This team is well on its way to being Arizona. No elite talent so they arent good enough to win anything of substance but arent a last place team. Worst possible scenario. I want to see the team win a stanley cup.

Its time to start managing the assets correctly. That means trading players on expiring contracts. Not over paying for anyone older when the team is in rebuild mode they need the salary structure to be ready for some big pay days in the next 3 years.

Pageeau, Tierney, Namestinikov, Ennis, Demelo, Hainsey, Boro and Anderson. Get whatever you can for them. The team already traded Karlsson, Duchene, Dzingel and Stone but people want them to stop trading at a bunch of plugs when the organization already commited to tanking? I dont get it.

Agree the team needs to stick to the plan, jettison anything and everything without almost certain future benefit to a hopefully competing team for futures including JGP.

 

[aragorn]

The idea that people were ok with tanking without the teams first rounder while trading all its elite players only to stop doing it when they actually have the first round pick is ass backwards. Last year was bar none the worst as a fan it could possibly have gone. Tanking without the first round pick while trading a franchise player and two other elite players and starting the season by trading the best player in franchise history. With all that pain people want to stop tanking all of a sudden when the team actually has a chance at a franchise player.... I just dont understand how people can be so short sighted. This organization commited to being horrible, dont stop when you actually might see a benefit to it.

The reason the team is so bad with no elite talent coming is its poor asset management. This team is well on its way to being Arizona. No elite talent so they arent good enough to win anything of substance but arent a last place team. Worst possible scenario. I want to see the team win a stanley cup.

Its time to start managing the assets correctly. That means trading players on expiring contracts. Not over paying for anyone older when the team is in rebuild mode they need the salary structure to be ready for some big pay days in the next 3 years.

Pageeau, Tierney, Namestinikov, Ennis, Demelo, Hainsey, Boro and Anderson. Get whatever you can for them. The team already traded Karlsson, Duchene, Dzingel and Stone but people want them to stop trading at a bunch of plugs when the organization already commited to tanking? I dont get it.

I agree, trade the UFAs this yr, plus any other player not in their future plans.

2019 - 2020 UFAs to trade:
Pageau, Ennnis, Namestikov, Boedker, Sabourin, Anderson, Boro, Hainsey, DeMello, Goloubef & Szarz . 11 players is a lot of players to trade in one yr, probably impossible & it's over $20 mil out the door.

- could also trade Tierny this yr & look to trade Anisimov at next yr's trade deadline along with Ryan & Zaitsev, if possible. That's almost another $20 mil, they will have plenty of money to pay a few of their young stars long term contracts.

- obviously they won't be able to trade all of them & those they can't trade can walk at the end of the season. Callahan & MacArthur will also be off the books at the end of this season & Gaborik next season.

 

[milkbag]

The idea that people were ok with tanking without the teams first rounder while trading all its elite players only to stop doing it when they actually have the first round pick is ass backwards. Last year was bar none the worst as a fan it could possibly have gone. Tanking without the first round pick while trading a franchise player and two other elite players and starting the season by trading the best player in franchise history. With all that pain people want to stop tanking all of a sudden when the team actually has a chance at a franchise player.... I just dont understand how people can be so short sighted. This organization commited to being horrible, dont stop when you actually might see a benefit to it.

The reason the team is so bad with no elite talent coming is its poor asset management. This team is well on its way to being Arizona. No elite talent so they arent good enough to win anything of substance but arent a last place team. Worst possible scenario. I want to see the team win a stanley cup.

Its time to start managing the assets correctly. That means trading players on expiring contracts. Not over paying for anyone older when the team is in rebuild mode they need the salary structure to be ready for some big pay days in the next 3 years.

Pageeau, Tierney, Namestinikov, Ennis, Demelo, Hainsey, Boro and Anderson. Get whatever you can for them. The team already traded Karlsson, Duchene, Dzingel and Stone but people want them to stop trading at a bunch of plugs when the organization already commited to tanking? I dont get it.

Ask Edmonton how well throwing a team full of kids onto the ice turns out. You need some kind of veteran presence to settle them down when faced with adversity. Realistically though, the only one from your list I would keep is Pageau. Maybe Demelo and Boro if they dont price themselves too high.

 

[swiftwin]

The NHL is not a dynasty league.

It's a parity driven league. There will always be 2-3 teams in each conference who are in the playoffs every season, but after that it is about catching lightning in a bottle and capitalizing on seasons where a team is hot. It's not linear. A team can be great one year and not click the next. The cap forces so much change over that consistency is hard.

Soooo much this. Short of having a true generational Crosby/Ovechkin/McDavid level player (I'm not convinced there is one in this year's draft), you have to rely on having a solid team top to bottom, and catching lightning in a bottle to win a Stanley Cup. There is no magic formula. Landing a top 5 pick does not guarantee a cup win.

That's why I find it ridiculous when people act like being a middling team that makes the playoffs most years is a bad thing. That's how you win a cup. The more often you make the playoffs, the more likely you are to win the cup. It's all a numbers game. Once the playoffs start, all bets are off. The only certainty is that you can't win the cup if you don't make the playoffs.

 

[Alex1234]

Stick to the plan imo

 

[swiftwin]

The idea that people were ok with tanking without the teams first rounder while trading all its elite players only to stop doing it when they actually have the first round pick is ass backwards. Last year was bar none the worst as a fan it could possibly have gone. Tanking without the first round pick while trading a franchise player and two other elite players and starting the season by trading the best player in franchise history. With all that pain people want to stop tanking all of a sudden when the team actually has a chance at a franchise player.... I just dont understand how people can be so short sighted. This organization commited to being horrible, dont stop when you actually might see a benefit to it.

The reason the team is so bad with no elite talent coming is its poor asset management. This team is well on its way to being Arizona. No elite talent so they arent good enough to win anything of substance but arent a last place team. Worst possible scenario. I want to see the team win a stanley cup.

Its time to start managing the assets correctly. That means trading players on expiring contracts. Not over paying for anyone older when the team is in rebuild mode they need the salary structure to be ready for some big pay days in the next 3 years.

Pageeau, Tierney, Namestinikov, Ennis, Demelo, Hainsey, Boro and Anderson. Get whatever you can for them. The team already traded Karlsson, Duchene, Dzingel and Stone but people want them to stop trading at a bunch of plugs when the organization already commited to tanking? I dont get it.

The point of rebuilding is not to tank. It's to replace an old core with a new core. Tanking is a concept created by kids who play NHL video games. Does rebuilding often lead to finishing low in the standings? Sure. But if your team does well with the new core of young players, that's better than finishing low in the standings.

I have nothing against trading guys like Hainsey, Ennis and Anderson, as they obviously have no long term future with the team. But guys like Pageau, Tierney, DeMelo can absolutely have a longer term future with the team. I'm not saying don't trade them at all costs, but I'm just saying that trading these guys need much more careful consideration. We can't just throw everyone out ice a team of sub-25 years olds. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Soooo much this. Short of having a true generational Crosby/Ovechkin/McDavid level player (I'm not convinced there is one in this year's draft), you have to rely on having a solid team top to bottom, and catching lightning in a bottle to win a Stanley Cup. There is no magic formula. Landing a top 5 pick does not guarantee a cup win.

That's why I find it ridiculous when people act like being a middling team that makes the playoffs most years is a bad thing. That's how you win a cup. The more often you make the playoffs, the more likely you are to win the cup. It's all a numbers game. Once the playoffs start, all bets are off. The only certainty is that you can't win the cup if you don't make the playoffs.

Adding a top 5 pick adds to solidifying a solid team.

Also you are making it sound like missing the playoffs this year in favor of a top 5 is the end of the world

 

[swiftwin]

Stick to the plan imo

The plan was to make a push for the playoffs this season.

 

[swiftwin]

Adding a top 5 pick adds to solidifying a solid team.

But at what cost? If we happen to land a top 5 pick, then sure, awesome. But if our young players are better than anticipated, and we don't land a top 5 pick, isn't that a good thing too?

Either we have a crappy core of young players that we improve more with a top 5 pick, or a better core of young players that we improve less with a top 15 pick. They're both the same thing.

 

[Alex1234]

The plan was to make a push for the playoffs this season.

I meant not the pre season plan to sell more tickets
The original plan to rebuild from zero for 2021-25

 

[swiftwin]

I meant not the pre season plan to sell more tickets
The original plan to rebuild from zero for 2021-25

Dorion said very specifically that we would contend for a a playoff spot this season (2019), then ideally, should make the playoffs next season (2020), then hopefully start contending the following season (2021).

This was always the plan. Your desire to deliberately lose games was never factored into this plan.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Either we have a crappy core of young players that we improve more with a top 5 pick, or a better core of young players that we improve less with a top 15 pick. They're both the same thing.

Why is it only one or the other? Finishing near the bottom doesn't equate to having a crappy core does it? You can still develop and progress despite finishing 31st.

 

[Alex1234]

Dorion said very specifically that we would contend for a a playoff spot this season (2019), then ideally, should make the playoffs next season (2020), then hopefully start contending the following season (2021).

This was always the plan. Your desire to deliberately lose games was never factored into this plan.

Do you want me to dig out everything Dorion said very specifically that ended up being lies?

 

[swiftwin]

Why is it only one or the other? Finishing near the bottom doesn't equate to having a crappy core does it? You can still develop and progress despite finishing 31st.

Well, finishing higher would imply that our core is better than if we finished 31st, right?

The problem here seems to be that most of you seem to have a very deterministic view of our young players. When in reality, they are people who learn and grow. They may exceed expectations, they may fall short of expectations. Maybe some random player in our system could become our next elite level franchise player. All that matters is that if we do well this season, it'll be off the back of a young core of players that we can keep if needed, since basically none of our core players are old. Ultimately, that would be a good thing.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

As long as its the kids contributing to winning, it will pay some dividends. The concern is that a lot of the contributors to this team winning right now are temporary stop gaps. Both goalies and the whole D core except for Chabot and Brannstrom are not likely to be here or contribute anything of consequence in the future, and with Brannstrom being more of a passenger, it's basically Chabot and a few decent forwards you can call "the core" winning right now.

These are the kids currently on the roster who can arguably be seen as core players one day.

Chabot
Tkachuk
White
L.Brown
Brannstrom
Duclair

Honourable mention to a few older guys who could fit as part of the transition to success in a few years, but are likely to be overpaid with too much term and getting to that Karlsson/Stone/Duchene age we were told is too old to be worth signing. That said, I think Dorion makes poor choices and signs the 3 other than Tierney to contracts they won't live up to. That is not a slight to any of those guys, just not my choice for eating up the budget right now.

Pageau
Tierney
Namestnikov
C.Brown

Anyone else on the roster is currency, waiver fodder, cap casualties or inconsequential youth imo. I guess if you're someone that has confidence in Dorion to round out the roster and manage the budget properly this time, I could see why you could have optimism he can fill enough holes around that relatively underwhelming core so far.

Stay the course and deal any UFA's that want more than short term deals. It's not like everything is suddenly going to fall to pieces the moment Dylan DeMelo or JG Pageau walk out the door, at least I don't think so.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Well, finishing higher would imply that our core is better than if we finished 31st, right?

It's not that black and white lol

The problem here seems to be that most of you seem to have a very deterministic view of our young players. When in reality, they are people who learn and grow. They may exceed expectations, they may fall short of expectations. Maybe some random player in our system could become our next elite level franchise player. All that matters is that if we do well this season, it'll be off the back of a young core of players that we can keep if needed, since basically none of our core players are old. Ultimately, that would be a good thing.

I think you have a deterministic view of young players. You said so yourself that if we finish higher it would imply our core is better. That's simply not true. Again, due to your previous statement about catching lightning in a bottle you are implying that luck plays into winning which leads to winning a cup, this can be applied to standings as well.

If the Sens finish middle of the pack this year, finish near the bottom next year but with a higher point total or higher goals for or better analytical does that mean our core regressed?

 

[bert]

The point of rebuilding is not to tank. It's to replace an old core with a new core. Tanking is a concept created by kids who play NHL video games. Does rebuilding often lead to finishing low in the standings? Sure. But if your team does well with the new core of young players, that's better than finishing low in the standings.

I have nothing against trading guys like Hainsey, Ennis and Anderson, as they obviously have no long term future with the team. But guys like Pageau, Tierney, DeMelo can absolutely have a longer term future with the team. I'm not saying don't trade them at all costs, but I'm just saying that trading these guys need much more careful consideration. We can't just throw everyone out ice a team of sub-25 years olds. That's a recipe for disaster.

Please dont undermine what I am saying with this garbage thats the second reference you have made to video games and its a lazy way to respond to an argument that had clear and defined purpose. I made a very detailed posts on how to go about rebuilding. It makes sense, you are in a fantasy land with your overall takes "lets hope one of the players hits". Yet you dont even want to increase the odds of that happening. You want to relly on luck, I am actuallysuggesting a specific plan. Ill repost the post I had to answer you questions. Also what makes you think players like Pageau, Demelo and Tierney arent easily aquired for free? They are depth players and soon to be UFA's. They are not elite players. Pageau is the only unique one. If you think this makes or breaks the organization then you really arent familiar with the rest of the league.

Well, finishing higher would imply that our core is better than if we finished 31st, right?

The problem here seems to be that most of you seem to have a very deterministic view of our young players. When in reality, they are people who learn and grow. They may exceed expectations, they may fall short of expectations. Maybe some random player in our system could become our next elite level franchise player. All that matters is that if we do well this season, it'll be off the back of a young core of players that we can keep if needed, since basically none of our core players are old. Ultimately, that would be a good thing.

No absolutely not it does not mean the core is better when this team is trying to compete for a cup in 3 years time. Thats what you simply cant seem to grasp. They are not rebuilding for next season they are actually trying to win a Stanley Cup not be mired in mediocrity like Arizona. Atleast one would hope.

The bolded portion is a prime example of you having no real plan and really no clue what you are talking about. You are counting on a random player just being a star. I mean by that logic why even draft with your first round pick? All prospects are equal in your world. Why not just trade your first rounder for a bunch of late picks. Oh wait you dont like accumulating assets either. Ok so your plan is just to randomly pick and hope for the best.

Ask Edmonton how well throwing a team full of kids onto the ice turns out. You need some kind of veteran presence to settle them down when faced with adversity. Realistically though, the only one from your list I would keep is Pageau. Maybe Demelo and Boro if they dont price themselves too high.

Very familiar with whats gone on in Edmonton. That had more to do with organizational culture and picking the wrong coachs than anything. They also drafted horribly outside of their first round picks if they had hit on any it would have given them the depth. Also Ottawa has the supporting cast they have already built it and are deep in depth style prospects. They are missing elite talent. They arent getting it any other way than the draft. I am reposting what I said to answer you questions. Edmonton is also currently leading the division with two of the best players in the game. If you dont want that for your team I am not sure what you want....

Duclair is 24 and isnt a to be UFA he should be in the long term plans. All of the players I listed are going to be UFA's at the end of this season except Tierney he is 2 years away from being an RFA with arbitration rights. I dont think he fits into the long term plans. After the trade deadline id be fine with this roster.

Tkachuk Brown Duclair
Paul White Brown
Balcers Anisimov Ryan
Boedker Chlapik Sabourin
Beaudin

Chabot Zaitsev
Wolanin Jaros
Brannstrom Goloubef

Nilsson
Hogberg

Then next year they can bring in a couple free agents and graduate some young players like Batherson etc.

Who knows maybe Pageau and Demelo come back as UFA's. The UFA market isnt like it used to be, with the salary structure being different and going to young players you can get bargains and deals like Carolina did with Dzingel and Gardiner.

My point is they commited to the rebuild they only have three quarters of one more year to go. Finish the job, manage the assets.

Playing the last 15 to 20 games with this roster is not going to change the culture of the team.

 

[OD99]

Did you just quote yourself and argue with your own point Bert?

 

[Sweatred]

“Con

Adding a top 5 pick adds to solidifying a solid team.

Also you are making it sound like missing the playoffs this year in favor of a top 5 is the end of the world

”Contend” is a useless and frivolous word. Every team in the league will have been in contention for a playoff spot at some point in the season.

Not drafting high end skill is exceptionally damaging for this franchise. We don’t have the ability to sign Tavares types.

There are lots of way to win but the easiest is to have the best players. Most good playoff teams have 3-4 better forwards that our best.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The point of rebuilding is not to tank. It's to replace an old core with a new core. Tanking is a concept created by kids who play NHL video games. Does rebuilding often lead to finishing low in the standings? Sure. But if your team does well with the new core of young players, that's better than finishing low in the standings.

I have nothing against trading guys like Hainsey, Ennis and Anderson, as they obviously have no long term future with the team. But guys like Pageau, Tierney, DeMelo can absolutely have a longer term future with the team. I'm not saying don't trade them at all costs, but I'm just saying that trading these guys need much more careful consideration. We can't just throw everyone out ice a team of sub-25 years olds. That's a recipe for disaster.

best cores found at start of draft..


tanking is a real thing. management is doing it right now

 

[NyQuil]

I don't really have much issue with how players are being defined here, but for the record, I personally don't think a guy like Dylan DeMelo can easily be replaced.

I'm not sure why, or how, but he's become one of our better defensive defencemen who allows our more flamboyant and aggressive defencemen to learn their trade and make mistakes (see Chabot, see Borowiecki).

Getting to know Dylan DeMelo: From healthy scratch in San...

It seems like every team out there is looking for defensive help and we've got a guy who is probably going to be pretty cheap given the way defensive defencemen are evaluated.

We can try to parlay that into some crappy late round pick but I don't think it will be as easy to replace him as people think. Now, if we are actively trying to lose, then trading DeMelo is a good idea.

Do I think that we will ever have an established defensive corps with Wolanin, Brannstrom, Thomson, Chabot and Bernard-Docker all playing at the same time? No freaking way.

Carry on.

 

[Sensfan4life]

Look at the Leafs & Sharks right now - winning in the NHL is extremely hard!

They both have all-stars littered throughout their line-up and the Leafs have some top goaltending to go with it. The Senators won't be a legit Stanley Cup contender for a few years and that is if our current crop of kids turn out to surpass expectations and we get some high end talent from this and the next couple of drafts.

You mean the Sharks team that has won 7 of 10 and is now 3 points out of a playoff spot?

 

[Sensfan4life]

The plan was to make a push for the playoffs this season.

The plan this year was to tank.

It will happen, but this push will inflate the value of assets to be moved out.

 

[Sensfan4life]

As long as its the kids contributing to winning, it will pay some dividends. The concern is that a lot of the contributors to this team winning right now are temporary stop gaps. Both goalies and the whole D core except for Chabot and Brannstrom are not likely to be here or contribute anything of consequence in the future, and with Brannstrom being more of a passenger, it's basically Chabot and a few decent forwards you can call "the core" winning right now.

These are the kids currently on the roster who can arguably be seen as core players one day.

Chabot
Tkachuk
White
L.Brown
Brannstrom
Duclair

Honourable mention to a few older guys who could fit as part of the transition to success in a few years, but are likely to be overpaid with too much term and getting to that Karlsson/Stone/Duchene age we were told is too old to be worth signing. That said, I think Dorion makes poor choices and signs the 3 other than Tierney to contracts they won't live up to. That is not a slight to any of those guys, just not my choice for eating up the budget right now.

Pageau
Tierney
Namestnikov
C.Brown

Anyone else on the roster is currency, waiver fodder, cap casualties or inconsequential youth imo. I guess if you're someone that has confidence in Dorion to round out the roster and manage the budget properly this time, I could see why you could have optimism he can fill enough holes around that relatively underwhelming core so far.

Stay the course and deal any UFA's that want more than short term deals. It's not like everything is suddenly going to fall to pieces the moment Dylan DeMelo or JG Pageau walk out the door, at least I don't think so.

Excellent analysis.