Rumor: Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread | Current Rumor: Cam Talbot

[oilinblood]

I know I will get bashed here, but I completely disagree with this statement. Joe Thornton had a couple of rough years in the playoffs, but in the end, he took his team to the second round 6 times and the third round 3 times. That means 3 times he captained a top 4 team in the NHL.

No, he didn't win a cup, but as I have argued for a long time, there are 30 teams in the league. That means twice every 30 years you should see your team in the cup final, and they should only win it once.(perfect world). San Jose's problem was never their forwards, but their back end. Nabokov was a good to very good goalie, not great, and their defense was average. They played above them because they were such a good puck possession team that they could mask those inefficiencies, until they played a 7 game series against a great team that put their defense back on their heels.

in a thread where everyone talked about how a team needs the best Dman to win a cup...they keep knocking JT as if everyone in hockey looked at that roster and blamed him. playing in the west against those dominant D and deeper teams. Boyle was the closest they ever had and he could never be in the same conversation as Doughty, Keith, Seabrook, Lidstrom, Chara, not even Hedman. Hedmans a better dman than Boyle ever was. when you get to the playoffs its the balls. balls on d. thats what wins it. every top four team has the front talent...but the better d can contain and nullify that.
thats why stamkos doesnt lift the cup.

 

[ivanthebad*]

Joe wouldn't waive to come here. And I doubt Mclellan wants his ex captain who vanishes in the playoffs. Its not a good fit.

It's a great fit. Everything Joe has to offer as far as leadership and how he controls the ice is a ton valuable. He also wears the "C" for the next couple of years. Couture sure seems to be turning out into one hell of a player. He doesn't do that on his own. McDavid will learn regardless but Joe is a major learning curve. Now Draisaitl with Joe would be sick cuz that's how we aspire him to be! We may not be able to get him but dismissing it as a bad idea, no way

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

It's a great fit. Everything Joe has to offer as far as leadership and how he controls the ice is a ton valuable. Couture sure seems to be turning out into one hell of a player. He doesn't do that on his own. McDavid will learn regardless but Joe is a major learning curve. Now Draisaitl with Joe would be sick cuz that's how we aspire him to be! We may not be able to get him but dismissing it as a bad idea, no way

I meant a bad fit overall because the cost to acquire him would probably be to high sadly.

 

[oilinblood]

It's a great fit. Everything Joe has to offer as far as leadership and how he controls the ice is a ton valuable. Couture sure seems to be turning out into one hell of a player. He doesn't do that on his own. McDavid will learn regardless but Joe is a major learning curve. Now Draisaitl with Joe would be sick cuz that's how we aspire him to be! We may not be able to get him but dismissing it as a bad idea, no way

we cant turn around our d in one year and we arent giving up on nurse or klef. that means our d will be a bit green.
best way to give us a shot in the arm is with Joe. it instantly makes a power house top six, to go with a great wagon line and what i think is a solid third.

if we get franson as a ufa and a goalie (which seems easy considering the movement available there)... this team starts to take shape. this is the big year. you needto be playing for keeps and meaningful hockey. This is where the real learning and ascension begins.

 

[oilinblood]

I meant a bad fit overall because the cost to acquire him would probably be to high sadly.

16th. they wont get better. its in Joes hands.
if Joe says yes to waive...they better do it because he wont be waiving during the year...and as i said if he does it will be for a late first at most because he will jump onto a cup favorite.

he has all the power. he loves it.

and if sj waits and does it later...for a worse retur...the circus follows that team like a plague. they have seen what it does. the circus will crush their season.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

we cant turn around our d in one year and we arent giving up on nurse or klef. that means our d will be a bit green.
best way to give us a shot in the arm is with Joe. it instantly makes a power house top six, to go with a great wagon line and what i think is a solid third.

if we get franson as a ufa and a goalie (which seems easy considering the movement available there)... this team starts to take shape. this is the big year. you needto be playing for keeps and meaningful hockey. This is where the real learning and ascension begins.

Yes but using our best assets for another forward will keep us a bottom feeding team.

 

[Suxnet]

SJ would be foolish to trade Thornton within the division anyway, so it's a moot point.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

16th. they wont get better. its in Joes hands

What.
Yes he will, he will get a mid round pick, plus a 2nd or 3rd and a prospect. Nashville could give up more then us and that would make sense.

 

[soothsayer]

we cant turn around our d in one year and we arent giving up on nurse or klef. that means our d will be a bit green.
best way to give us a shot in the arm is with Joe. it instantly makes a power house top six, to go with a great wagon line and what i think is a solid third.

if we get franson as a ufa and a goalie (which seems easy considering the movement available there)... this team starts to take shape. this is the big year. you needto be playing for keeps and meaningful hockey. This is where the real learning and ascension begins.

OK. So tell us, what do you give up for Joe Thornton and where do guys like RNH and McDavid slot in the line up? McDavid to wing? What happens if McDavid dominates at center, because he could very well put up more points at center than Joe Thornton next year.

. . .

Thornton will return more than just a mid-first round pick.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

OK. So tell us, what do you give up for Joe Thornton and where do guys like RNH and McDavid slot in the line up? McDavid to wing? What happens if McDavid dominates at center, because he could very well put up more points at center than Joe Thornton next year.

He already said it. Apparently 16oa is all it would take

 

[oilinblood]

OK. So tell us, what do you give up for Joe Thornton and where do guys like RNH and McDavid slot in the line up? McDavid to wing? What happens if McDavid dominates at center, because he could very well put up more points at center than Joe Thornton next year.

thats for Todd to decide. i would expect McD can draw in to pivot in controlled situations at first. point is JT is still a puck possession beast on the wall and in the dot...and on pp...and all situations. That is invaluable.

you give up 16th. and maybe a bit more. but at 16th in this draft...they wont get better return. he isnt re-signing with them. its clear he will walk for free or after a majority of the year being the attraction of the circus he will leave for a late pick. he controls it. they do not.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

thats for Todd to decide. i would expect McD can draw in to pivot in controlled situations at first. point is JT is still a puck possession beast on the wall and in the dot...and on pp...and all situations. That is invaluable.

you give up 16th. and maybe a bit more. but at 16th in this draft...they wont get better return. he isnt re-signing with them. its clear he will walk for free or after a majority of the year being the attraction of the circus he will leave for a late pick. he controls it. they do not.

Worse players have gotten much much more then a 16oa and a bit. Thats a rental cost on a guy like Vermette, not value for a great player with 2 years left.

 

[oilinblood]

He already said it. Apparently 16oa is all it would take

you can laugh all you want. JT doesnt negotiate. apwhen he is ready for camp he will shut down all requests to waive his ntc, as he does every year. he will tell mgmnt to go to he-- if they ask. he is set on hockey from that point forward. he will not re-sign. he will always know he can walk clean out of there at the end of the year.

take a look at rental returns, unfaithful posters who dont pay any attention apparently. pay attention to the trades that get player for a pick up.
schneider for a ninth, starter #1 goalie in not a rich draft.

laugh

 

[soothsayer]

thats for Todd to decide. i would expect McD can draw in to pivot in controlled situations at first. point is JT is still a puck possession beast on the wall and in the dot...and on pp...and all situations. That is invaluable.

you give up 16th. and maybe a bit more. but at 16th in this draft...they wont get better return. he isnt re-signing with them. its clear he will walk for free or after a majority of the year being the attraction of the circus he will leave for a late pick. he controls it. they do not.

The first part I think is reasonable. But t the second part: there is no way that Joe Thornton only returns a mid-first round pick even if a "bit more" is added. Paul Gaustad gets a mid to late 1st round pick, Joe Thornton gets that and then some more picks and high level prospects.

 

[oilinblood]

Worse players have gotten much much more then a 16oa and a bit. Thats a rental cost on a guy like Vermette, not value for a great player with 2 years left.

in cap era. i look at the trades. show me the ones where a guy had a full ntc...thus the player held ALL cards...and gets you a better return.

he is UFA next summer. not two summers. next. he walks. all power in his hands. full ntc, nmc.

and everyone knows he told management to ---- --- during the season. he wont be waiving. he is happy to have allllllll the power. he will choose what happens.

 

[ivanthebad*]

Yes but using our best assets for another forward will keep us a bottom feeding team.

No it won't. That's what he is saying. Chicago has Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Crawford. That is the core and it can be argued to death. Our core is Mcd, Hall, Daisaitl Ebs, Klef, Nurse,Broissant

Insert Joe into this and have some complimentary players like CHI and win a cup, then Joe is out of the picture and we still move forward with that winning chemistry.

Everyone keep in mind that Keith and Seabrook were late picks, they became those players under the right system also. I'm notb taking anything away from them, but a winning culture sure allows for alot of confidence and self worth.

 

[Suxnet]

I'd rather pay up for Crosby than Big Joke Thornton.

 

[Titsuple]

Would like to have Joe but only for 2 years. So if you could get him for fair value and he signs a 1 or 2 year extension would help us make playoffs faster while being a good mentor for Mcdavid and Draistle.

Trade ebs for a wicked d man like seth jones ect.

Hall RNH Mcdavid
Drai Thronton Yak
Pouliot Lander Purcell
Wagon

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

you can laugh all you want. JT doesnt negotiate. apwhen he is ready for camp he will shut down all requests to waive his ntc, as he does every year. he will tell mgmnt to go to he-- if they ask. he is set on hockey from that point forward. he will not re-sign. he will always know he can walk clean out of there at the end of the year.

take a look at rental returns, unfaithful posters who dont pay any attention apparently. pay attention to the trades that get player for a pick up.
schneider for a ninth, starter #1 goalie in not a rich draft.

laugh

Well for one....goalies go for less then skaters, almost always as they are always a risky bet, even proven.

Two. Vermette went for a 1st and a prospect as a rental.

2 years of Thornton is worth much more then that. If it was a top 10 pick then sure.

Also people need to stop saying this draft is incredibly deep.

There is the top 2, a big drop then after 10 it drops again. From there on its like any other draft.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

No it won't. That's what he is saying. Chicago has Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Crawford. That is the core and it can be argued to death. Our core is Mcd, Hall, Daisaitl Ebs, Klef, Nurse,Broissant

Insert Joe into this and have some complimentary players like CHI and win a cup, then Joe is out of the picture and we still move forward with that winning chemistry.

Everyone keep in mind that Keith and Seabrook were late picks, they became those players under the right system also. I'm notb taking anything away from them, but a winning culture sure allows for alot of confidence and self worth.

The problem is, it'll take a top prospect and a 1st for Joe.
If we go into the season with adding Joe and not being able to get a top pairing dman, we are still a bad team. A winning culture is great, thats why I rather trade assets like that for a defensemen. If it only costs 16oa then its a no brainer, but thats not even close to fair value and would never happen.

 

[soothsayer]

you can laugh all you want. JT doesnt negotiate. apwhen he is ready for camp he will shut down all requests to waive his ntc, as he does every year. he will tell mgmnt to go to he-- if they ask. he is set on hockey from that point forward. he will not re-sign. he will always know he can walk clean out of there at the end of the year.

take a look at rental returns, unfaithful posters who dont pay any attention apparently. pay attention to the trades that get player for a pick up.
schneider for a ninth, starter #1 goalie in not a rich draft.

laugh

This is just some narrative you've made. In other words, what you've written here has no bearing on real life.

To the other point, Thornton would not be a rental, as he has 2 years left on his contract. He would also be a blockbuster trade, and when you look at comparable trades, you'll see right away that 16 overall is not even in the ball park.

 

[oilinblood]

16 and WHAT would you guys think?

 

[ivanthebad*]

in cap era. i look at the trades. show me the ones where a guy had a full ntc...thus the player held ALL cards...and gets you a better return.

he is UFA next summer. not two summers. next. he walks. all power in his hands. full ntc, nmc.

and everyone knows he told management to ---- --- during the season. he wont be waiving. he is happy to have allllllll the power. he will choose what happens.

True but Joe is not listing 1 team and look at what Chi gave up for Vermette and Timmonen. He may hold some cards but the best offer still wins. He will get a hefty return regardless

 

[gqmixmaster]

I think Joe Thorntons value would be somewhere in the vicinity of what Martin St Louis returned, which unless you are a cup contender its not worth it IMO.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

I think Joe Thorntons value would be somewhere in the vicinity of what Martin St Louis returned, which unless you are a cup contender its not worth it IMO.

Basically.
A player like Thornton would be great to have but only if we can fix the defense first.