Speculation: Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XXIV: C'est la St. Louis?
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Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
MTrangers
Registered User
Wow, a lot of stuff happened during my loooong, sweet sleep. A lot of discussions on losing both Callahan and Girardi. Not saying it will happen, but here's why I think it will: Alain Vigneault.
Callahan and Girardi are two coveted and respected players around the league and want their big paychecks. If this team was committed to John Tortorella I think managament would be a lot more eager to keep them both, but it isn't. AV (I think) is more interested in players with puck skills than grit. He wants his player's to have the puck and distribute it wisely. Callahan and Girardi are good hockeyplayers but really not that good a fit in a system like that.
So, if you are commited to a puck possesion system, do you:
- spend 12mill/year (looong term) on two players who are not 100% suited to fit the system you are about to play for the next years?
- try to use those players as bargaining chips to trade for players that fit this new system?
If the Ranger's as an organisation truly believe that AV is the man to lead the team forward (and since that 3-7 start he's got a pretty decent record) I think we as fans might be seeing the first true evidence here. I wouldn't be surprised at all if both Girardi and Callahan are moved. IMO it would be a very logical decision made by management.
However, the Rangers are in the middle of a playoff push. That is why I don't see us landing a lot of futures. Martin St.Lous would fit this system perfectly IMO and if rumours of him wanting to be a Ranger are true I'd be really sad if we don't land him. The Girardi for Vatanen rumour also makes a lot a sense system wise. My guess is Sather will try to land a another d-man if they deem Vatanen not ready to step in right away.
This is what I want to see:
- Girardi and Callahan both moved
- Winger brought in (hopefully St. Lous) to replace Callahan.
- Right handed D brought in (hopefully Vatanen)
- Another D brought in. Low key, solid all-around d-man who wouldn't cost too much but can play 15 mins/night if Vatanen/d-man prospect isn't ready for NHL.
This would set us up pretty nicely moving forward. If a couple of picks are retained, all the better.
This would of course mean they are relying on Stralman/Klein to handle added responsibility. If think it is quite clear AV/Samuelsson are relying on them already. Stralman has been very solid all season and Klein is a veteran d-man. Also, McD as RD is an option.
Callahan and Girardi are two coveted and respected players around the league and want their big paychecks. If this team was committed to John Tortorella I think managament would be a lot more eager to keep them both, but it isn't. AV (I think) is more interested in players with puck skills than grit. He wants his player's to have the puck and distribute it wisely. Callahan and Girardi are good hockeyplayers but really not that good a fit in a system like that.
So, if you are commited to a puck possesion system, do you:
- spend 12mill/year (looong term) on two players who are not 100% suited to fit the system you are about to play for the next years?
- try to use those players as bargaining chips to trade for players that fit this new system?
If the Ranger's as an organisation truly believe that AV is the man to lead the team forward (and since that 3-7 start he's got a pretty decent record) I think we as fans might be seeing the first true evidence here. I wouldn't be surprised at all if both Girardi and Callahan are moved. IMO it would be a very logical decision made by management.
However, the Rangers are in the middle of a playoff push. That is why I don't see us landing a lot of futures. Martin St.Lous would fit this system perfectly IMO and if rumours of him wanting to be a Ranger are true I'd be really sad if we don't land him. The Girardi for Vatanen rumour also makes a lot a sense system wise. My guess is Sather will try to land a another d-man if they deem Vatanen not ready to step in right away.
This is what I want to see:
- Girardi and Callahan both moved
- Winger brought in (hopefully St. Lous) to replace Callahan.
- Right handed D brought in (hopefully Vatanen)
- Another D brought in. Low key, solid all-around d-man who wouldn't cost too much but can play 15 mins/night if Vatanen/d-man prospect isn't ready for NHL.
This would set us up pretty nicely moving forward. If a couple of picks are retained, all the better.
This would of course mean they are relying on Stralman/Klein to handle added responsibility. If think it is quite clear AV/Samuelsson are relying on them already. Stralman has been very solid all season and Klein is a veteran d-man. Also, McD as RD is an option.
This is my take on Sami Vatanen.
He was real good for Finland in the OG's. He is a bit of a Kimmo Timmonen-player. Good on the PP. Good with the puck. Its essential that he is a right handed shot. I am not his absolute biggest fan, I like that finnish kid drafted by Pittsburgh more (but he is a left shot), but he looked real good no doubt. He has also played well for Anaheim during the regular season.
But I've also seen him really struggle in the NHL, especially in one game against Chicago where Chicago obviously matched lines against him and Anaheim basically had to yank him from the ice because it got real ugly. But lets also remember that Vatanen is only 22, going on 23, and that this is his rookie year in the NHL.
The bottomline for me with Vatanen is this, I've always said that I would be prepared to deal Girardi / Callahan for a good return if that could be had, but that if we are looking at depth players (Palmieri in all honesty (I would not deal JT for him, just don't fill a hole for us)), players that might not be a good fit on a contender (Tatar / Etem), and / or lottery like assets like late 1st etc., I would rather bite the bullet on a less than optimal contract than loosing Girardi and Callahan. Vatanen in a little broader picture is perfect for us. Right handed offensive minded D. We haven't had one of those in ages. He will get good support here in NY 5 on 5 playing with either McD or Staal, he has a position open for him on a PP. Its very obvious that the game is moving in a direction where players like him, that can make plays with the puck, is very valuble.
I don't know what Slats and AV know that I don't. But what the heck happens to our room if we deal both Callahan and Girardi? How does it affect Staal? Etc. Thats one big change to make. Scary.
So for me Vatanen in a deal for Girardi is a good start. It could have been -- much -- worse. With McD, Staal, Klein, Strålman and John Moore; we are not handicapped or hurt by taking on Vatanen. Definitely not. If we count on McI down the road and take out Stralsy, having someone who is offensive heavy like Vatanen is downright a must on the right side (with Klein and McI taking up the two other positions on that side).
But its still a deal that would scare me.
Last edited:
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
Where do I begin?
First of all, yeah let's just throw in Boyle arbitrarily, because he is certainly not needed to be in that trade value wise.
Girardi is better than Bieksa and not a turd. The difference between Callahan and Kesler is not swapping Girardi with Bieksa and giving up our very good 4C. Kesler is basically Callahan except at the C position at this point. He's aging, oft hurt, and not the effective player we saw just a few years ago. He's still good, and if the price were dirt cheap as a rental I'd certainly consider adding him, but that trade overall is a big fat F-.
Not to mention if we're moving Girardi and Callahan in deals unrelated to MSL, then you're giving up even more assets to bring him in.
If people are going to be so quick to trade Boyle (someone who has elevated his game in the playoffs) at least milk a desperate team and get good value for him. Really though if Sather is serious, as he usually is, about going all in this season then just ride Boyle out and let him walk. He wil be useful in the playoffs and unless someone wants to overpay a first for him, I see no good reason to just toss him away or arbitrarily include him in deals for players that aren't great value.
Lastly, this notion of "AV and Torts players" giving people these player swap ideas is getting tiresome. Just because someone played for a coach before doesn't mean it will work again. Torts and Richards wasn't too great the second go around.
Silfverberg is a player that it would be awsome if Slats could pray out of Anaheim too next to Vatanen. We would obviously need to add to Girardi, and its a hard move to make for Ana since he was the main piece in the Bobby Ryan trade, and they might not even consider it since they see him as Selanne's replacement, but, Silfverberg might be an awsome fit next to Hagelin-BR. He is an strong right handed sniper and is decent 5 on 5, with a lot of room to grow.
The idea to make it happen would be to have Girardi go to Anaheim a long side Callahan and Stralman going to other teams for none-NHL ready assets (prospects and picks), and then take -- some -- of that return and add to Girardi to have Vatanen, Silverberg and the balance from the Stralsy and Cally trade that we don't have to add to the Girardi package, coming back. Hopefully something equal to a 1st or multiple 2nd's.
Kreider-Step-Nash
Hagelin-BR-Silverberg
Pouliot-Brass-Zucc
Dorsett/Carcillo-Moore-Boyle
McD-Vatanen
Staal-Klein
Moore-Allen
The idea to make it happen would be to have Girardi go to Anaheim a long side Callahan and Stralman going to other teams for none-NHL ready assets (prospects and picks), and then take -- some -- of that return and add to Girardi to have Vatanen, Silverberg and the balance from the Stralsy and Cally trade that we don't have to add to the Girardi package, coming back. Hopefully something equal to a 1st or multiple 2nd's.
Kreider-Step-Nash
Hagelin-BR-Silverberg
Pouliot-Brass-Zucc
Dorsett/Carcillo-Moore-Boyle
McD-Vatanen
Staal-Klein
Moore-Allen
How would you feel i the return for Callahan and Girardi is St.Louis and Vatanen? I don't feel Callahan for St.Louis is a trade that will happen, but if at the deadline the sum of all trades are Callahan and Girardi out and Vatanen and St.Louis in? I'd be ok with that, but adding another d-man capable of playing 15mins/night would make it perfect. There is no way to know what the full effect of losing Callahan and Girardi is, but IMO this would make for a slight upgrade in offense and a slight downgrade in defense, while setting us up nicely cap wise.
If NYR did in fact leak the MSL info to garner leverage, don't you think this could backfire big time if it forces Yzerman to keep him because Sather won't give him fair value?
Why wouldn't they just do this quietly and call it a day?
Assuming They leaked it and Sather really wants MSL.
Why wouldn't they just do this quietly and call it a day?
Assuming They leaked it and Sather really wants MSL.
I don't see Stralman holding much value as a rental. That's why I don't think Anaheim would do a deal like that.
Stralman has been great this season and seems to fit AV's system really well. He probably would sign a cap friendly deal around 3.2-3.5/year. I'd definitely sign him before dealing him as I see him valuable to the Rangers and a bargain at that price.
- Sep 17, 2007
- 24,926
- 22,848
Kesler isn't the same player he was a few years ago. I wouldn't bet on him regaining his form. And Bieksa is 33 in June. Why are we trading for 2 players who are OLDER than the players we are giving up? How does that help us either now or in the future?
The Rangers don't need a broken down Ryan Kesler. I was watching the VAN feed of the Blues-Canucks. During the first period,the Canucks panel with Dan Murphy and one of the beat writers Ian McIntyre were discussing Kesler being a game changer. Its not 2011. He was dominant that year before getting hurt in the playoffs. VAN wants young players to build around. The Rangers have enough problems. Derek Stepan is a player VAN would want. How does that make sense? A 24 year old center for a broken down 30 year old.
I agree.
This will be a very interesting day. Add to that: we get to see Rangers take on the Blackhawks!
And not even that substantial of an upgrade. You're making a moderate improvement now, while acquiring a player that's six years older than who you're giving up. Kesler looks like he may be beginning his decline. You're right, it would be ass-backwards.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I'm still concerned about what's going on with Girardi. Its baffling that the team is willing to throw away their playoff chances this year and probably for the next few years by refusing to give a true #1 RHD an extra year and 500k more per year. They aren't going to get anyone back who can be a #1 RHD in the near future. A player like Vatanen is an intriguing player, but his defensive game is lacking to be a #1 RHD right away. I think he would need a couple of years to develop his defensive game. I wouldn't be comfortable if the Rangers gave him 20-25 MPG like Girardi got. He would get exposed defensively.
I'm all for being smart about the investments that you make, but how is an extra year and a 3M more total dollars going to hamper the team's cap situation? To think that Sather is stupid enough to ruin the Rangers playoff chances for the next few years over chump change is ridiculous. He's doing the right thing with Callahan because his demands are ridiculous, but he's really playing hardball with Girardi. I hope this is just a negotiation tactic.
In the end, I am going to be really upset if he is traded for a small offensive oriented player who doesn't have the ability to be a #1 RHD right now. Its throwing away the teams playoff chances for the next few years. There is no viable option to replace Girardi's production. Stralman can't do it, and pushing McDonagh to the right side hurts the LHD depth and forces Staal to play bigger minutes than he is capable of at this point.
I'm just sick of these half-ass decisions. Either commit to a rebuilding job or go all in and pay your players. By giving Hank the contract that he got, its a signal that the Rangers want to go for a Cup in the next few years, but by trading one of your best players for a young player who can't contribute what you need right now its sending the opposite message. I'm not totally opposed to either idea, but I'd like to see the Rangers commit to something and stick with it. Retooling usually doesn't work.
I'm all for being smart about the investments that you make, but how is an extra year and a 3M more total dollars going to hamper the team's cap situation? To think that Sather is stupid enough to ruin the Rangers playoff chances for the next few years over chump change is ridiculous. He's doing the right thing with Callahan because his demands are ridiculous, but he's really playing hardball with Girardi. I hope this is just a negotiation tactic.
In the end, I am going to be really upset if he is traded for a small offensive oriented player who doesn't have the ability to be a #1 RHD right now. Its throwing away the teams playoff chances for the next few years. There is no viable option to replace Girardi's production. Stralman can't do it, and pushing McDonagh to the right side hurts the LHD depth and forces Staal to play bigger minutes than he is capable of at this point.
I'm just sick of these half-ass decisions. Either commit to a rebuilding job or go all in and pay your players. By giving Hank the contract that he got, its a signal that the Rangers want to go for a Cup in the next few years, but by trading one of your best players for a young player who can't contribute what you need right now its sending the opposite message. I'm not totally opposed to either idea, but I'd like to see the Rangers commit to something and stick with it. Retooling usually doesn't work.
BBKers
Registered User
Cally, Kristo for MSL and conditional 2nd (if he resigns in Tampa) from TBL
Giradi for S Vatanen and Ottawa 1st from Anaheim
NYR 2nd + rights to Bo Nieves for UFA Mark Stuart from Winnipeg
ROSTER
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($0.800m) / Derek Stepan ($3.075m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Martin St. Louis ($5.625m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.300m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / Mats Zuccarello ($1.150m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Dominic Moore ($1.000m) / Daniel Carcillo ($0.825m)
Derek Dorsett ($1.633m) / J.T. Miller ($0.894m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m)
Mark Stuart ($1.700m) / Kevin Klein ($2.900m)
John Moore ($0.840m) / Anton Stralman ($1.700m)
Sami Vatanen ($0.785m) / Justin Falk ($0.975m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Cameron Talbot ($0.563m)
BUYOUTS
Wade Redden ($0.000m)
BURIED
Arron Asham ($0.075m)
Darroll Powe ($0.142m)
------
TOTALS
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000
BONUSES: $1,540,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $5,969,736
Giradi for S Vatanen and Ottawa 1st from Anaheim
NYR 2nd + rights to Bo Nieves for UFA Mark Stuart from Winnipeg
ROSTER
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($0.800m) / Derek Stepan ($3.075m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Martin St. Louis ($5.625m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.300m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / Mats Zuccarello ($1.150m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Dominic Moore ($1.000m) / Daniel Carcillo ($0.825m)
Derek Dorsett ($1.633m) / J.T. Miller ($0.894m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m)
Mark Stuart ($1.700m) / Kevin Klein ($2.900m)
John Moore ($0.840m) / Anton Stralman ($1.700m)
Sami Vatanen ($0.785m) / Justin Falk ($0.975m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Cameron Talbot ($0.563m)
BUYOUTS
Wade Redden ($0.000m)
BURIED
Arron Asham ($0.075m)
Darroll Powe ($0.142m)
------
TOTALS
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000
BONUSES: $1,540,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $5,969,736
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I wouldn't be okay with it. I'm not totally opposed to the Rangers trading both players, but I'd like to see a clear direction. What direction are you going in by trading two players just under 30 for a 38 year old and a 22 year old?
AlternateSideParking
Registered User
- Dec 11, 2005
- 21,596
- 5,131
You havent watched Kesler play this year.
Hes been as good as he was in 2011. Only difference is Torts overworks him, injuries to Burrows and Sedin etc.
He was playing on a line with Santorelli and Higgins yet still scored 20+ Goals in the first 45 or so games.
He obviously was hurt in the Olympics.
AlternateSideParking
Registered User
- Dec 11, 2005
- 21,596
- 5,131
Darren Turcotte was once a 24-year-old two-way center who had a howitzer and blazing speed. He was traded for Steve Larmer.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I disagree. Stralman and Klein are #2 RHD at best. Vatanen isn't a #1 RHD right now and might never be. McIlrath isn't likely to be a #1 RHD ever, and even if he gets to that point it won't be anytime soon. Sure, put McD on the right side and bump Staal up, but then who is playing on the second pairing on the left side? Can Klein, Stralman or Vatanen play on the left side? I'm not comfortable with Staal and John Moore as #1 and #2 on the left side. In fact, I'm not even sure about Staal's ability to play 23-25 MPG every game. He's been better the last few months, but I'm still not sure if he will ever be back to the player that he was.
Yeah a direction would be nice. And, as I stated earlier, I think that "direction" is trying to get players that fit into AV's system. Callahan and Girardi are great players but not a 100% fit to play a puck possession style of hockey. If you commit to two players for so much money and term they better be suited to play that kind of game. I think that is one of the reasons as to why they are even considering letting them both go.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
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