Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Trade Deadline edition

[ECWHSWI]

You wouldn't think so reading HF

can't find better sites for info I guess...

 

[Kriss E]

You wouldn't think so reading HF

You shouldn't take a lot of the emotional reactions to his poor performances as serious beliefs, and you should be able to filter through the BS. You've been here long enough.

 

[417]

can't find better sites for info I guess...

Something like that

 

[417]

You shouldn't take a lot of the emotional reactions to his poor performances as serious beliefs, and you should be able to filter through the BS. You've been here long enough.

I expect it from other fans...less so from Habs fans.

I find it odd so many Habs fans will say that trading Pacioretty is key for the rebuild/retool...yet they're ready to settle for a top prospect + late 1st.

Though I'll also add that quite a few media guys have advanced the same thought, that Pacioretty won't garner the type of return some Habs fans think he will.

 

[SlyIslands]

HF is terrible for trades, all trades are terrible and all players are untouchables. Most trades can't be judged at least one year after the fact.

 

[vokiel]

I expect it from other fans...less so from Habs fans.

I find it odd so many Habs fans will say that trading Pacioretty is key for the rebuild/retool...yet they're ready to settle for a top prospect + late 1st.

Though I'll also add that quite a few media guys have advanced the same thought, that Pacioretty won't garner the type of return some Habs fans think he will.

Why you're finding it hard? We constantly are in a situation where we either don't have any top prospects or our top prospects are getting remolded into Frankenstein. I'll take a top prospect and a 1st any day for Patches. Bring it on, because our draft & development crews are too idiotic to be able to get them on their own.

Shit, how do you like our top prospects in the last 5 years compared to other pools? It's like comparing pudding to cake.

Edit: .. Hell gimme 2 top prospects.. Forget about the first, they would mess it up anyway.

 

[Deebs]

How much more could we get in return if we ate the majority of Pleky's salary for the remainder for the year? I figure he's get no more than a 3rd in return, but if we ate the salary, could we get a 1st? That's a huge incentive for another team as they could an additional piece to their cup run?

 

[beowulf]

How much more could we get in return if we ate the majority of Pleky's salary for the remainder for the year? I figure he's get no more than a 3rd in return, but if we ate the salary, could we get a 1st? That's a huge incentive for another team as they could an additional piece to their cup run?

Some in the media think he is worth a second or more without retaining salary.

 

[vokiel]

How much more could we get in return if we ate the majority of Pleky's salary for the remainder for the year? I figure he's get no more than a 3rd in return, but if we ate the salary, could we get a 1st? That's a huge incentive for another team as they could an additional piece to their cup run?

The max you can eat is 50% We already have at least one fan base offering a 2nd (Pittsburgh). A first is not completely out of reason, if several teams are interested, but our GM is a caveman who just failed 2 major trades recently according to many, so I wouldn't put money on it.

 

[417]

Why you're finding it hard?

I said I find it "odd" not "hard"...I get some have been conditioned to think our players are worthless, and in many cases they are, just not this particular one, IMO.

We constantly are in a situation where we either don't have any top prospects or our top prospects are getting remolded into Frankenstein. I'll take a top prospect and a 1st any day for Patches. Bring it on, because our draft & development crews are too idiotic to be able to get them on their own.

I don't get this reasoning at all...our drafting/development have been bad, so let's stop getting full value for our players?

Ok then..

****, how do you like our top prospects in the last 5 years compared to other pools? It's like comparing pudding to cake.

Depends which prospect pools you're talking about.

But to answer your question, I have several issues with the players they've identified at the draft and their draft strategy as a whole, yes.

Edit: .. Hell gimme 2 top prospects.. Forget about the first, they would mess it up anyway.

Well if they're going to mess it up anyways...might as well just trade Pacioretty for future considerations, right?

 

[417]

Some in the media think he is worth a second or more without retaining salary.

McKenzie seemed to think it would be a stretch if he got a 2nd round pick....perhaps if a team is in desperate need.

 

[Kriss E]

I expect it from other fans...less so from Habs fans.

I find it odd so many Habs fans will say that trading Pacioretty is key for the rebuild/retool...yet they're ready to settle for a top prospect + late 1st.

It's in every fanbase.
Well, that depends on the prospect, is Nico Hischier considered a prospect? Because I would have no problem trading Max for him. So I guess it depends who we talking about here.
Sergachev yielded us Drouin, a guy you were extremely high on. One you believed was pretty much a superstar in the making. If I recall correctly, you told me Drouin would surprise a lot of people with his skills and talent.
I am not saying this to argue whether you were right or not, but it shows that a very good prospect can still be a great return for a roster player.

Though I'll also add that quite a few media guys have advanced the same thought, that Pacioretty won't garner the type of return some Habs fans think he will.

Well I don't put much weight on that. I cannot recall the last time the media did not say this about any player from Mtl on the market.
Then again, maybe they are right. Maybe they see Patches the same way the fans who want him out do. A perimeter player who cannot lead any offense and usually under performs both versus PO teams and in the POs themselves, and because of his steady 30g will be asking for a lot of cash.
Now, you can allude to Duchene's return, which was a big steal by the Avs. Didn't think he would go for that much. Them asking for Galch+Sergachev is actually plausible, even if I never believed it.
But Duchene at least had ppg seasons that the Avs could use as an argument and it is probably what the Sens were hoping for getting him. Duchene, if on top of his game, could actually the offensive charge of a team. Max can't.
Anyways, I'm just throwing possible reasoning here. If it is up to me, a high end prospect+pick is the starting point of a conversation for Max.
We have until deadline 2019 as I want him gone by then at the latest.

 

[beowulf]

McKenzie seemed to think it would be a stretch if he got a 2nd round pick....perhaps if a team is in desperate need.

Engels believes he is worth a 2nd at least. He makes a compelling argument in his article.

 

[SlyIslands]

Engels believes he is worth a 2nd at least. He makes a compelling argument in his article.

We might be looking to much into his past stats instead of the present. Right now he's just a defensive center. But for a 4th we are better off just keeping him.

 

[beowulf]

We might be looking to much into his past stats instead of the present. Right now he's just a defensive center. But for a 4th we are better off just keeping him.

Decide for yourself

Canadiens GM Bergevin should be sent packing if he doesn't trade Plekanec - Sportsnet.ca

You can see the merit in paying Plekanec a couple million bucks to return to Montreal on a one-year deal. The Canadiens have arguably the weakest centre line in the NHL — and he’s the best they’ve got on the defensive side of the puck. But that’s a decision for July 1; not one for right now, when Bergevin should be working as hard as he needs to in order to redeem a second-round draft pick for Plekanec’s services.
He’s worth at least that.

Plekanec’s speed is still intact, too.
It makes him a viable candidate for a shutdown role on any team hoping to make an extended run in this year’s playoffs — and a real good fit on a couple of the teams considered to be legitimate Stanley Cup contenders.
The market could be considerable for this player.
We could see the Pittsburgh Penguins taking a swing at Plekanec, pushing Riley Sheehan down a line and giving them the four-pronged strength up the middle that has been instrumental in helping them win consecutive Cups.
We could also see the Vegas Golden Knights paying the price to add his experience to the mix, as they prepare for their opportunity to become the NHL’s first expansion team to win in its inaugural season. Ideally they’d like to keep all their draft picks, but giving up their only second-round pick this season might be a sacrifice they’re willing to make knowing they own three second rounders in 2019.
The Tampa Bay Lightning might take a chance on Plekanec. He offers them the flexibility to play Matthew Peca or Cedric Paquette at wing and helps mitigate the loss of their best defensive forward in Ondrej Palat, who’s slated to miss at least five more weeks — and as many as seven — with a lower-body injury.
You can probably add the Columbus Blue Jackets to the mix, too. They could use some depth up the middle and perhaps that’s why two of their scouts took in both matinees at the Bell Centre over the weekend.

No one would argue Plekanec’s still the player who managed seven seasons of 20 goals or more and six of 50 points or more, but he has five goals and 20 points in 53 games on a Canadiens team that can’t score. He’s managed that offence without playing on either of the team’s power-play units, without starting less than 67 per cent of his shifts in the defensive zone, and he’s managed to do it without cheating on his nightly responsibilities of having to face the opposition’s best forwards.
Plus-minus is rarely a representative statistic, but it certainly is in Plekanec’s case when you consider all of the above. That he’s in the black at plus-2 speaks to his reliability.
Plekanec has also won 52.1 per cent of his faceoffs this season and done an admirable job on Montreal’s top penalty-killing unit with Paul Byron.

 

[theghost1]

Lol ok.

LOL thanks tips.

 

[DaNaultinus]

I think a 2nd is far value for Plekanec with 50% retained. It's possible a team would add a late pick to beat out another team for him in a bidding war, but I don't see anyone offering a first. Max value I see Pleks fetching is a 2nd and a 3rd.

 

[theghost1]

Lol don't listen to Blues fans or Kings fans. They don't want to trade Thomas/Vilardi alone for Pacioretty which is insane. 1st, 2nd, top prospect and roster player isn't an absurd price. Duchene got more as a worse player. The other team will be getting an elite goalscorer who always produces despite never having a good center with him. I'm sure we can get a lot in return.

Yes,Blues fans last year at the deadline thought they should get blue chip prospect and 1st round pick for Shattenkirk who was a rental,they ended up getting that late 1st.

 

[417]

Well, that depends on the prospect, is Nico Hischier considered a prospect? Because I would have no problem trading Max for him. So I guess it depends who we talking about here.

That's correct, i'd have no qualms about trading Pacioretty for him either.

But for this purpose, for me, prospect is defined as an amateur prospect (i.e. Ryan Poehling) or a pro prospect that's not quite yet a full-time NHL'er (i.e. Nikita Scherbak) but has some top 6 potential and is pushing for an NHL spot.

Sergachev yielded us Drouin, a guy you were extremely high on. One you believed was pretty much a superstar in the making. If I recall correctly, you told me Drouin would surprise a lot of people with his skills and talent.
I am not saying this to argue whether you were right or not, but it shows that a very good prospect can still be a great return for a roster player.

That's fine, but we're not talking about the same kind of deal here...we're talking about trading a player with a well established value, who is proven and productive in one of the most sought after areas of the game, goals.

Well I don't put much weight on that. I cannot recall the last time the media did not say this about any player from Mtl on the market.
Then again, maybe they are right. Maybe they see Patches the same way the fans who want him out do. A perimeter player who cannot lead any offense and usually under performs both versus PO teams and in the POs themselves, and because of his steady 30g will be asking for a lot of cash.

That's also fine, Pacioretty has warts...I would never deny that.

But I have trouble buying into a hockey analyst say this about Pacioretty, then in the same breath tell us that Evander Kane or Rick Nash is going to go for a Kings Ransom. All credibility is lost then.

Now, you can allude to Duchene's return, which was a big steal by the Avs. Didn't think he would go for that much. Them asking for Galch+Sergachev is actually plausible, even if I never believed it.
But Duchene at least had ppg seasons that the Avs could use as an argument and it is probably what the Sens were hoping for getting him. Duchene, if on top of his game, could actually the offensive charge of a team. Max can't.

Pretty obvious what the Sens were trying to accomplish with this deal, I alluded to it at the time...they wanted a reasonable facsimile of Kyle Turris, but without having to deal with re-signing him this summer like they would of had to with Turris.

Anyways, I'm just throwing possible reasoning here. If it is up to me, a high end prospect+pick is the starting point of a conversation for Max. We have until deadline 2019 as I want him gone by then at the latest.

Absolutely...and perhaps this is just semantics, but I don't consider Robert Thomas or Gabe Vilardi to be "high end prospects".

If they are "high end prospects" that along with a 1st can get back a player like Pacioretty.

Then the Habs should seriously consider moving Ryan Poehling + 1st to acquire an established top line centre.

 

[417]

Engels believes he is worth a 2nd at least. He makes a compelling argument in his article.

"At least" implies he could be worth more...and I just don't see it.

I think a 2nd round pick is about as good as it's going to get for the Habs if a team wants Plekanec. If they get an offer like that, they should take it and run.

 

[yianik]

Guess we could try something like Pleks at 50% retained and our latest 2nd for a 1st.

 

[beowulf]

"At least" implies he could be worth more...and I just don't see it.

I think a 2nd round pick is about as good as it's going to get for the Habs if a team wants Plekanec. If they get an offer like that, they should take it and run.

Well from what I posted above the idea would be a 2nd and a later round pick if some salary is picked up if I read it correctly.

 

[417]

Guess we could try something like Pleks at 50% retained and our latest 2nd for a 1st.

Don't think it's wise for the Habs to be trading draft picks...unless we're getting an established player back.

 

[417]

Well from what I posted above the idea would be a 2nd and a later round pick if some salary is picked up if I read it correctly.

Fair enough...like I've said before.

It's hard to nail down his value because the way the Habs use Plekanec, is not the way a contending team is going to use him. I'm not sure how much of an appetite a contending team is going to have to trade for a player who is going to be play a specialist role, as opposed to the important role he has with Julien.

He might be worth a 1st/2nd based on how the Habs use him...but on a contending team?

Not sure about that.

For example...the Penguins already traded a 3rd + Scott Wilson to acquire Riley Sheahan to basically play the same role they'd have Plekanec play.

Are they going to trade another 1st or 2nd to add Plekanec?

How would Pens fans feel about their team trading a 1st + 3rd for Tomas Plekanec & Riley Sheahan? For that price, seems to me they could do much better.

 

[Kriss E]

That's correct, i'd have no qualms about trading Pacioretty for him either.

But for this purpose, for me, prospect is defined as an amateur prospect (i.e. Ryan Poehling) or a pro prospect that's not quite yet a full-time NHL'er (i.e. Nikita Scherbak) but has some top 6 potential and is pushing for an NHL spot.

Well if we are talking Poehling or Scherbak type, then I agree, that's a joke.

That's fine, but we're not talking about the same kind of deal here...we're talking about trading a player with a well established value, who is proven and productive in one of the most sought after areas of the game, goals.

Agreed, that's why I said high end prospect + 1st is just the start of the conversation. I imagine a team could start low like that to start negotiation, which I would counter with a huge and slightly unrealistic demand.

That's also fine, Pacioretty has warts...I would never deny that.

But I have trouble buying into a hockey analyst say this about Pacioretty, then in the same breath tell us that Evander Kane or Rick Nash is going to go for a Kings Ransom. All credibility is lost then.

Well, I mean, TV analysts sounding like clueless bozos is nothing new. Did you see how the TSN panel reacted when we traded for Vanek? It's as if the Habs was a team from another league that landed this guy.
"I'm hearing that..waiting a minute...Va...Vanek has been traded. To the...the..Habs?!?..Whawaaaat?"
So I don't really pay much attention to them. I look at past trades and a high end prospect+1st should be the beginning of a discussion.

Pretty obvious what the Sens were trying to accomplish with this deal, I alluded to it at the time...they wanted a reasonable facsimile of Kyle Turris, but without having to deal with re-signing him this summer like they would of had to with Turris.

They paid a hefty price for it.

Absolutely...and perhaps this is just semantics, but I don't consider Robert Thomas or Gabe Vilardi to be "high end prospects".

If they are "high end prospects" that along with a 1st can get back a player like Pacioretty.

Then the Habs should seriously consider moving Ryan Poehling + 1st to acquire an established top line centre.

Well I agree, I would be disappointed with just Thomas/Vilardi+1st for Patches.