Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[417]

i think it should take somewhere in between 3 to 5 years. Teams like Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay all missed the playoffs for several years in a row and slowly build their team through the draft and smart trading. Most of those teams have also hit the jackpot at the drafting table, setting them up for multiples Stanley cups in the last 20 years.

But so many things needs to all come together at the same time to win it all.

3-5 years agreed…not 5 years to make the playoffs though.

 

[eklund the clown]

I think it’s more the cream of the crop don’t make it free agency anymore

Bergevin went after and signed only the cream of the crap.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

So trying to rebuild around a strategy of signing players like that is a terrible plan. And rebuilding through the draft takes time, even if you land a star player. Only reason Rangers were able to jump start their rebuild was because they landed Panarin and Fox. Two all star, franchise level players to compliment their depth of youth who haven’t reached their level yet.

But nobody is advocating rebuilding around signing a superstar in FA. Not a single poster has made that suggestion.

 

[eklund the clown]

The naming of a GM might get that ball rolling. Not sure Gorton might do anything on his own.

I’m OK with waiting, it’s a new administration, they need to know what they have and what is disposable.

I am pretty sure Gorton knows what we have by now as most of us do.If the right deal comes along i don't think he would wait around for the new GM or anyone else nor should he.I think we all know he is the boss.

 

[NekkiChiconey]

A realistic timeline for me is this:
21-22: bottom-3 finish, sellers at the deadline, top-5 pick
22-23: sell veterans who don't have too much term (Toffoli, Drouin, Armia...?), top-5 pick again
23-24: sell more veterans if possible, team is younger and more exciting, finish around 20th in the league
24-25: young team with legit playoff hopes
25-26 and onward: up-and-coming contender

I think they only need to be *that* bad for 2 years if Gorton can stack the picks in drafts 22-24. A good model to follow is Ottawa from 2018-2020, but that's if we're able to draft well.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I’m not saying otherwise…I just agreed with @Spring in Fialta take that rebuilding exclusively through the draft doesn’t make sense.

You have to be agile enough to shift course when the opportunities are there.

I don’t think the Rangers knew Panarin and Fox would be free agents when they declared they were rebuilding, but when they did they pounced…but that didn’t mean they abandoned their plan.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. But a rebuild for the Canadiens will take more than 2 years if you’re not bringing in superstar FAs. That’s what my point was. Aging Price, Weber gone and no core to build around means bringing the youth up to be the new core. That takes a lot longer than 2 years.

But nobody is advocating rebuilding around signing a superstar in FA. Not a single poster has made that suggestion.

I said it as the only way a full rebuild would only take 2 years to jump start. Barring that, it’s a lot longer rebuild to be a competitive team than two years. Honestly. How do you rebuild a team in two years unless you bring in multiple star level players? I’m not being facetious, I genuinely can’t see a way to do this any other way within a two year time frame.

 

[Runner77]

I am pretty sure Gorton knows what we have by now as most of us do.If the right deal comes along i don't think he would wait around for the new GM or anyone else nor should he.I think we all know he is the boss.

I don’t know how responsibilities will be divvied up behind the scenes. However, making trades is a GM’s prerogative and the naming of a GM is not that far away. Gorton was adamant that the GM would have powers normally attributed to the position — he was emphatic that if he were a candidate, he would never accept a GM position where the GM was not a full fledged GM.

To really know what you have and who to target on the market you’d need an Analytics Dept. (or analytics input, which Gorton says he values) and both Amateur and Pro Scouting Depts. whose input is reliable.

Not all trades require a high level of intel (like trading a redundant or expiring contract for picks) but then, does Gorton make those or does he name his GM and leave them to him/her?

Otherwise, do we really want to see high level decisions that will have a major impact on the team’s turnaround, made by relying on all the stooges Bergevin left behind?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I agree wholeheartedly with this. But a rebuild for the Canadiens will take more than 2 years if you’re not bringing in superstar FAs. That’s what my point was. Aging Price, Weber gone and no core to build around means bringing the youth up to be the new core. That takes a lot longer than 2 years.



I said it as the only way a full rebuild would only take 2 years to jump start. Barring that, it’s a lot longer rebuild to be a competitive team than two years. Honestly. How do you rebuild a team in two years unless you bring in multiple star level players? I’m not being facetious, I genuinely can’t see a way to do this any other way within a two year time frame.

Ok, now I see what you were getting at. I don't I am suggesting (or 417 for that matter) that the Habs should be cup contenders in two years. Just not in the basement still accumulating lottery picks.

 

[Gravity]

You're really going to have to explain to me how a team that had made the playoffs two years in a row was a rebuilding club. Signing Tavares goofed up their cap structure, not their actual attempt to rebuild the club to make it competitive!

Also, how did they stop rebuilding prematurely? They didn't sign anyone of note before Tavares (and had made the playoffs twice in a row before he was available). The only thing that happened that made them a playoff team was that Matthews and Marner made the roster. Are you going to suggest that they should not have been playing?

They were finishing off the rebuild when Tavares signed (not in their tear down phase). If they kept Kadri to the sweet deal they signed him too and continued collecting picks/drafting well (instead of immediately shifting to a win now phase), I'd reckon they would have made it past the first round by now (although this is just an opinion).

Becoming a playoff team is not the sole benchmark indicating that the rebuilding phase is cumulatively over. Look at Colorado for example, made the playoffs after a record awful season and drafted Newhook + Byram. My point being, not signing Tavares allows you to accrue picks + prospects for 1 to 2 more seasons and have a much more competitive roster down the line.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Ok, now I see what you were getting at. I don't I am suggesting (or 417 for that matter) that the Habs should be cup contenders in two years. Just not in the basement still accumulating lottery picks.

Being competitive is one thing. I want to be a contender. Just think there’s a difference in expectation. I don’t want to be a competitive team. I want the Habs to be a contender for a long time and that takes more time. So if in year four we have a top tier prospect pool with guys like Bedard or Wright etc., that’s moving in and making strides in the NHL but still a crappy team like Rangers were last year, then I’d be okay with that as long as you see real progression towards being a top tier team.

Just to go further. Imagine we drafted White and Bedard in the next two years, we still wouldn’t be a competitive team in two years and that’s hallucination level optimism.

 

[BozoTheClown]

3-5 years agreed…not 5 years to make the playoffs though.

Some of those teams have missed the playoffs 4/5 years in a row.
I don’t count this season as the first year of the rebuild as this is a team Bergevin built to compete for the cup. The first year of the rebuilt starts after free agency this coming summer. We should be a regular playoffs team in 2026.

 

[eklund the clown]

I don’t know how responsibilities will be divvied up behind the scenes. However, making trades is a GM’s prerogative and the naming of a GM is not that far away. Gorton was adamant that the GM would have powers normally attributed to the position — he was emphatic that if he were a candidate, he would never accept a GM position where the GM was not a full fledged GM.

To really know what you have and who to target on the market you’d need an Analytics Dept. (or analytics input, which Gorton says he values) and both Amateur and Pro Scouting Depts. whose input is reliable.

Not all trades require a high level of intel (like trading a redundant or expiring contract for picks) but then, does Gorton make those or does he name his GM and leave them to him/her?

Otherwise, do we really want to see high level decisions that will have a major impact on the team’s turnaround, made by relying on all the stooges Bergevin left behind?

Agree on most or all points however it seems to be taking Gorton a long time to do anything.Yes i know we have to be patient but he has been here almost a month and has basically done nothing.Has not hired or fired anyone that i know of.

Time flies and there is a lot of work to do to get this team ready for the draft,trade deadline and 100 other things.Think it's best that they get off their butts and start the process.I can imagine it would take quite a bit of time to hire/fire all the positions needed in this mess.

 

[417]

Some of those teams have missed the playoffs 4/5 years in a row.
I don’t count this season as the first year of the rebuild as this is a team Bergevin built to compete for the cup. The first year of the rebuilt starts after free agency this coming summer. We should be a regular playoffs team in 2026.

Built for the Cup?

not sure I agree there but either way

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

i really like how you re-invent history.

Gainey has lost Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, Komisarek, Lang, Schneider just in one single summer without any return at all . That gave him a lot of money to sign Gionta and Cammy for more money that they would have dreamed. Kovalev was obtained by a trade.

How is that relevant to the discussion?

We are talking about the Habs signing big names. Kovalev was a rental and chose to re-sign here. He was technically a free agent for several hours.

The fact that Gainey attracted Gionta and Cammy was an increadible feat at the time. He was also able to get Hamrlik, who was a much more complete player than Weber, in my mind.

Gainey replenished the Habs in one night and brought in new blood. What did BargainBin do? Kept his impending aging UFAs who cost him his job and the team is now in disarray.

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

Agree on most or all points however it seems to be taking Gorton a long time to do anything.Yes i know we have to be patient but he has been here almost a month and has basically done nothing.Has not hired or fired anyone that i know of.

Time flies and there is a lot of work to do to get this team ready for the draft,trade deadline and 100 other things.Think it's best that they get off their butts and start the process.I can imagine it would take quite a bit of time to hire/fire all the positions needed in this mess.

Nothing will be done until a new GM is named. Gorton will likely lurk in the shadows, calling the shots while the GM will be his yes man.

 

[Schooner Guy]

Nothing will be done until a new GM is named. Gorton will likely lurk in the shadows, calling the shots while the GM will be his yes man.

The trade deadline is late-March. Maybe later than that if more games get postponed. There's no rush whatsoever to make a splash.

 

[angusyoung]

The trade deadline is late-March. Maybe later than that if more games get postponed. There's no rush whatsoever to make a splash.

Spoken like a true schooner guy

 

[Benstheman]

The trade deadline is late-March. Maybe later than that if more games get postponed. There's no rush whatsoever to make a splash.

Late march really?? I always thought it was in february.

 

[Tim Wallach]

Late march really?? I always thought it was in february.

March 21 this year and possibly pushed back depending how things go. MTL may need it as late as possible to re-establish certain players’ values.

 

[Benstheman]

Built for the Cup?

not sure I agree there but either way

Well being playoffs team or cup contender might take the same amount of time, depending on the way our prospects develops, how we do in the UFA market and other things, how we do in the draft lotteries this year and next, etc. Time frame is not something set in stone.

In 5 years, Romanov, Suzuki, Caufield will already be veterans and fully developed. Guhle, maybe Harris will be young veterans entering their prime. If you add 2 elite pieces through next 2 drafts (who will be big times contributors in 5 years) and 2 solide players through FA.

Getting those big pieces through UFA is tough though and that's why i think we should be in on Chychrun because he is still young and is a known commodity. Fills an important need and can be part of the foundation of the club for many years with Suzuki, Guhle and the next two top 5 picks.

 

[Benstheman]

March 21 this year and possibly pushed back depending how things go. MTL may need it as late as possible to re-establish certain players’ values.

Thanks.

 

[Captain Mountain]

You’re arguing a lot of things I haven’t even debated so I’ll just respond to the last part of your post.

The Rangers did not miss the playoffs 4 years in a row…THIS is technically the 4th year and they’re 6th overall, influenced largely by moves made by Gordon.

Either way, this falls right into what I said about having a competitive team as soon as 2 years from now…

The Rangers missed the playoffs for 2 seasons, and have been a competitive team ever since…INCLUDING losing in the play-in round (better?) last year and being 6th overall this year.

Under no circumstance should it be acceptable to miss the playoffs for the next 4 years…I think Gorton would say the same.

You literally just said that I "don't have to accept anything i'm telling you". So I'm not working with you're strange Rangers timetable. The Rangers started rebuilding before the 2017-2018 season. They missed the playoffs in 2017-2018, 2018-2019, 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. And my point is that is ok, since that shit happens all the time.

Would it be nice if the Habs rebuilt and made the playoffs in a shorter timetable? Sure. But there's a lot of work for this team to do. And its not even like its uncommon for teams to be stuck in the wilderness that long. Carolina missed the playoffs eight seasons in a row (and 4 in a row for the Francis retool). Sakic got final hockey ops say in Colorado in 2013 (Sakic will have final say in new Avalanche role - mostly sharing duties with Roy) and the Avs missed the playoffs in 3 of the next 4 seasons (and the one time they made it they had one of the luckiest regular seasons in the cap era).

Gorton isn't hitting the ground running like he was in New York, because he can't.

The Habs:

-Have more player salary commitments than any other team in the NHL for the next couple of seasons at a time of serious cap uncertainty.
-Have a head coach that isn't cutting it while paying a lot for a better head coach to not coach the team.
-Don't have a lot of immediate help coming from the prospect pool.
-have skeleton crew of a front office.

This is not an easy fix. To bring it back to the thread discussion, if the Habs are going rebuild then they have to be very careful who they trade (move guys they can create a market for) and who they sign (no term or big money).

 

[417]

You literally just said that I "don't have to accept anything i'm telling you". So I'm not working with you're strange Rangers timetable. The Rangers started rebuilding before the 2017-2018 season. They missed the playoffs in 2017-2018, 2018-2019, 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. And my point is that is ok, since that shit happens all the time.

This is just a weird way to look at this.

2017-18 - yes they missed the playoffs, hence the shift towards rebuilding, whether they announced that in June of 2017 like you keep on insisting (which i'm not even debating) or in February 2018 like I said originally, which was just based on that letter. It doesn't change my argument.

2018-19 - I think it's normal, that the year after you declare you're rebuilding, that you miss the playoffs, don't you agree?

2019-20 - They lost in the play-in round, but this is where they've started becoming a competitive team again...remember when you asked me to define competitive team, I said a team that is challenging for a playoff spot.

2020-21 - in a short season the New York Rangers missed the playoffs despite being a +20 differential team.

2021-22 - They're currently sitting 6th overall.

What exactly is the issue here? lol I don't get what you're arguing?

I said I didn't expect it to take 5 years for the Habs to make the playoffs, I said that there's no reason why this shouldn't be a COMPEITTIVE team within 2 years and then used the Rangers as a comparable.

What's the problem? lol The Rangers are literally in the 4 year of their "rebuild plan" and they're now among the better teams in the NHL and their arrow is pointing way up.

That seems like a reasonable timeline for me to look too as it relates to the Habs.

None of this "miss the playoffs for 5 years because that's what I do on my PS5 NHL 22 franchise" crap that's been mentioned here.

5 years! Do you know how long that is??? lol

Would it be nice if the Habs rebuilt and made the playoffs in a shorter timetable? Sure. But there's a lot of work for this team to do. And its not even like its uncommon for teams to be stuck in the wilderness that long. Carolina missed the playoffs eight seasons in a row (and 4 in a row for the Francis retool). Sakic got final hockey ops say in Colorado in 2013 (Sakic will have final say in new Avalanche role - mostly sharing duties with Roy) and the Avs missed the playoffs in 3 of the next 4 seasons (and the one time they made it they had one of the luckiest regular seasons in the cap era).

That's cool...I still think it would be unacceptable for this team to be out of the playoffs for 5 years. That's not an acceptable standard for me, if it is for you...more power to you.

Gorton isn't hitting the ground running like he was in New York, because he can't.

The Habs:

-Have more player salary commitments than any other team in the NHL for the next couple of seasons at a time of serious cap uncertainty.
-Have a head coach that isn't cutting it while paying a lot for a better head coach to not coach the team.
-Don't have a lot of immediate help coming from the prospect pool.
-have skeleton crew of a front office.

They have salary commitments to good players...not sure what the issue is? Carey Price, Jeff Petry, Brendan Galagher, Tyler Toffoli, Josh Anderson, Nick Suzuki...are all good players. I don't see what hte issue is with having committed salaries to them.

The issue is we haven't been able to get them to play to the level of their ability this year...that's a coaching issue, as well as a personnel one...but before we address the latter, we need to resolve the former.

This is not an easy fix. To bring it back to the thread discussion, if the Habs are going rebuild then they have to be very careful who they trade (move guys they can create a market for) and who they sign (no term or big money).

No one said it was easy...I just said there's no way it should be as difficult as being in purgatory for 5 years.

I mean even the mid-to-late-90s & early-2000s Montreal Canadiens team, all of who were bereft of talent and front office know-how, never went 5 years without missing the playoffs.

Now i'm supposed to believe that that's an acceptable timeline for this edition?

Sorry...not me.

 

[Big Empty]

I wanna sign Valeri Nichuskin this off-season

 

[Vachon23]

We can't compare the Rangers rebuild with our, we won't get Panarin/Fox/Trouba because they want to only play in Montreal and Rick Nash/Mats Zuccarello/Kevin Hayes where all FA when they where traded.