Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[Spring in Fialta]

We’ll it depends. If we’re doing a proper rebuild, we may still suck after 4 years. Look at NY which is a great example. They were able to get back quicker but they also got lucky with Panarin, Zabinjad and Fox wanting to go there and thriving there. Panarin and Fox type players will not be insisting on going to Montreal. So if you’re building strictly from the draft, it’s going to take time, even for Bedard level players to come into their own. So 4 years for a complete turn around with an aging Price who may not even be here is a tall order. I’m thinking 5 to 6 years to be a Tampa level competitor is more likely. 4 years and you hope that they’re beginning to be competitive. But even if we’re like the Canes, who have a great team, great drafting and great reading for the most part, it’s been some time for them to get where they are now.

There is absolutely no reason for a team to be building strictly from the draft. It's about recognizing opportunities and doing your best to strike on them (i.e. like going after O'Reilly when he was available or looking at what could be done to acquire Chchryn or however you spell his name).

Carolina is not an example that should be cited. They missed the playoffs for a decade. They whiffed on a ton of picks, traded two players picked in the top 5 for veteran Dougie Hamilton and their best player was drafted in the second round. They are pretty much a perfect example of how teams can be built differently without being tank fetishizers.

 

[Sterling Archer]

There is absolutely no reason for a team to be building strictly from the draft. It's about recognizing opportunities and doing your best to strike on them (i.e. like going after O'Reilly when he was available or looking at what could be done to acquire Chchryn or however you spell his name).

Carolina is not an example that should be cited. They missed the playoffs for a decade. They whiffed on a ton of picks, traded two players picked in the top 5 for veteran Dougie Hamilton and their best player was drafted in the second round. They are pretty much a perfect example of how teams can be built differently without being tank fetishizers.

But who wants to come here!? You’re never going to get Panarin or Fox level players to come. That’s been the biggest issue since Gainey. It’s easy to say well, go out and get the best UFAs or trade for the best players but they have a say in the matter. How many players have all of Canada on their NMC lists? That’s the biggest issue facing Canadian teams. So if you can’t get them from the open market or trades, you have to draft them. The biggest FA we were able to retain was Petry. Most attempts to lure UFAs like Tavares or Point were met with “Don’t even call me.” So I wouldn’t expect a quick turn around by adding existing top tier NHLers. That’s pie in the sky level hope.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

But who wants to come here!? You’re never going to get Panarin or Fox level players to come. That’s been the biggest issue since Gainey. It’s easy to say well, go out and get the best UFAs or trade for the best players but they have a say in the matter. How many players have all of Canada on their NMC lists? That’s the biggest issue facing Canadian teams. So if you can’t get them from the open market or trades, you have to draft them. The biggest FA we were able to retain was Petry. Most attempts to lure UFAs like Tavares or Point were met with “Don’t even call me.” So I wouldn’t expect a quick turn around by adding existing top tier NHLers. That’s pie in the sky level hope.

Montreal has no trouble attracing FAs and never have, really. Where I think you're missing the forest for the trees is that players like Panarin and Tavares rarely hit the market, period. But good, great NHLers are always available. It's not like I'm suggesting that the draft isn't worth a shit. Just that fetishizing tanks and prospects is a really poor way to run a team.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Montreal has no trouble attracing FAs and never have, really. Where I think you're missing the forest for the trees is that players like Panarin and Tavares rarely hit the market, period. But good, great NHLers are always available. It's not like I'm suggesting that the draft isn't worth a shit. Just that fetishizing tanks and prospects is a really poor way to run a team.

Sorry bro, I’m going to have to stop you there. I gave you two real life examples off the top of my head of prominent UFAs who basically told us to Foff. Who was the last notable UFA who came to Montreal? Keep in mind, you’re working from a pool of players that include Alzner, Savard, Pacquette and Perrault.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Sorry bro, I’m going to have to stop you there. I gave you two real life examples off the top of my head of prominent UFAs who basically told us to Foff. Who was the last notable UFA who came to Montreal? Keep in mind, you’re working from a pool of players that include Alzner, Savard, Pacquette and Perrault.

Kovalev, Samsonov, Hamrlik, Cammalleri, Gionta, Cole, Toffoli, Hoffman are all players who had the opportunity to sign elsewhere and didn't. Those players were all top-6/top-4 players at the time of signing. Those are prominent UFAs. What you're asking me is who was the last superstar to come to Montreal as an FA. Well, that's never happened, just like it's never happened to something like 85-90% of the teams in this league.

Off the top of my head, how many superstars have hit FA in the past 10 years:

- Ryan Suter
- Zach Parise
- John Tavares
- Artemi Panarin
- Sergei Bobrovsky
- Dougie Hamilton

Who else?

 

[Beer and Chips]

I would like to evaluate our defensive prospects in the AHL before trading them. IDK

 

[Sterling Archer]

Kovalev, Samsonov, Hamrlik, Cammalleri, Gionta, Cole, Toffoli, Hoffman are all players who had the opportunity to sign elsewhere and didn't. Those players were all top-6/top-4 players at the time of signing. Those are prominent UFAs. What you're asking me is who was the last superstar to come to Montreal as an FA. Well, that's never happened, just like it's never happened to something like 85-90% of the teams in this league.

Off the top of my head, how many superstars have hit FA in the past 10 years:

- Ryan Suter
- Zach Parise
- John Tavares
- Artemi Panarin
- Sergei Bobrovsky
- Dougie Hamilton

Who else?

The players you named were from decades ago and Kovalev was traded for and went to Ottawa.
You’re saying there’s an abundance of top tier players available and then name 6 guys who would never come to Montreal. If you’re basing a rebuild on getting guys like that, it’ll take even longer to rebuild. If you want a real contender, you need to draft 2-3 star level players, and build solid vets and home grown talent around them with a star goalie. Cap constraints prevent you from signing 2-3 stars and having depth behind them hence teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh etc. who aren’t Cup contenders anymore because they’ve aged out and have massive contracts and aging players. If you sign guys like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane without tue supporting cast and weak depth, you’re doomed to fail. Cheap young talent and depth and s what wins. Trying to jump start a rebuild by getting aging vets at a premium who don’t even want to come here is doomed to fail.

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

Montreal has no trouble attracing FAs and never have, really. Where I think you're missing the forest for the trees is that players like Panarin and Tavares rarely hit the market, period. But good, great NHLers are always available. It's not like I'm suggesting that the draft isn't worth a shit. Just that fetishizing tanks and prospects is a really poor way to run a team.

No, the crème of the crème simply don't come here period. You mentionned it in your past: Tavares, Panarin, forget it.

Montreal somehow manages to pick up some good complementary players, but not what we call elite or game changers. But before Covid hit, even middle class top UFAs would simply not sign here and use the Habs as leverage. Yes, somehow the Habs got a year's worth of Cole and Radulov, but all that ended up in disaster anyways.

With BargainBin, we became accostumed to the annual dumpster diving discounts. That meant signing has-beens or UFA frenzy of fringe NHLers, giving second chances, and repratiating former Habs or francophones that wanted to retire in a Hab's uniform. Off course, Brière didn't work out so well.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

The players you named were from decades ago and Kovalev was traded for and went to Ottawa.
You’re saying there’s an abundance of top tier players available and then name 6 guys who would never come to Montreal. If you’re basing a rebuild on getting guys like that, it’ll take even longer to rebuild. If you want a real contender, you need to draft 2-3 star level players, and build solid vets and home grown talent around them with a star goalie. Cap constraints prevent you from signing 2-3 stars and having depth behind them hence teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh etc. who aren’t Cup contenders anymore because they’ve aged out and have massive contracts and aging players. If you sign guys like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane without tue supporting cast and weak depth, you’re doomed to fail. Cheap young talent and depth and s what wins. Trying to jump start a rebuild by getting aging vets at a premium who don’t even want to come here is doomed to fail.

I mean this honestly because I think you've been discussing this in good faith, but surely, you can't genuinely believe that's what I'm advocating for in my posts, yes?

You said Montreal can't attract FAs, including during the Gainey era because superstars haven't signed. I just showed you that that's not true (from the Gainey era up to Bergevin). I just mentioned the few superstars who hit the market and how most teams didn't get them, hence coming to conclusions about Montreal's marketability due to that isn't conductive to sound opinions, IMO. There's a myth that the Canadiens don't attract FAs and it's just blatantly untrue.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

No, the crème of the crème simply don't come here period. You mentionned it in your past: Tavares, Panarin, forget it.

Montreal somehow manages to pick up some good complementary players, but not what we call elite or game changers. But before Covid hit, even middle class top UFAs would simply not sign here and use the Habs as leverage. Yes, somehow the Habs got a year's worth of Cole and Radulov, but all that ended up in disaster anyways.

With BargainBin, we became accostumed to the annual dumpster diving discounts. That meant signing has-beens or UFA frenzy of fringe NHLers, giving second chances, and repratiating former Habs or francophones that wanted to retire in a Hab's uniform. Off course, Brière didn't work out so well.

Damn, I had actually forgotten Radulov, which reinforces my argument. Montreal manages to pick up good complementary player in FA because that's largely what hits the market. Like, they've gotten a good amount of top 6 players on the market. Neither have they had any trouble resigning their own stars. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Elite players haven't signed in Montreal because elite players rarely go to free agency, not because of some flaw in Montreal.

 

[sampollock]

We need a trade to give us something to talk about

 

[ZUKI]

People really don't seem to realize how long 4 years is in the realm of sports.

I agree with you. Yet, 4 days are already long in the Habs land for all our bipolar and drama queens fans.

This shitty Covid makes it so hard to make a good evaluation of the NHL teams. I think that Habs aren't as bad as they seem, because of all those injuries and new additions. Bergevin/Timmins also have already started to build by the drat for 2 years and they already got more draft selections for next summer.

It's kind of crazy how all the players are under performing this season. Petry, Gallagher, Toffoli, Hoffman, Dvorak ...where are they ? They can't do anything but rebound after Christmas or next season. . Then you see the Suzuki, Caufield, Poehling, Evans maturing, you see Ylönen, Primeau, Guhle, Roy, Struble, Norlinder that will growing .It isn't like the Habs are starting with nothing.

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

Damn, I had actually forgotten Radulov, which reinforces my argument. Montreal manages to pick up good complementary player in FA because that's largely what hits the market. Like, they've gotten a good amount of top 6 players on the market. Neither have they had any trouble resigning their own stars. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Elite players haven't signed in Montreal because elite players rarely go to free agency, not because of some flaw in Montreal.

Not quite, before the salary cap era, Montreal could simply not sign anyone and would lose their UFAs. During the Gainey era, the team had some level of respectability and signed many. Hamrlik, Kovalev, Gionta, Cammy, etc. With BargainBin, that all went downhill.

Radulov used the Habs, in a way, to get back to the NHL. Cole was signed by Gauthier. BargainBin couldn't sign any impact player except after Covid hit and basically Radulov. It kinda reflects his incompentence.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I mean this honestly because I think you've been discussing this in good faith, but surely, you can't genuinely believe that's what I'm advocating for in my posts, yes?

You said Montreal can't attract FAs, including during the Gainey era because superstars haven't signed. I just showed you that that's not true (from the Gainey era up to Bergevin). I just mentioned the few superstars who hit the market and how most teams didn't get them, hence coming to conclusions about Montreal's marketability due to that isn't conductive to sound opinions, IMO. There's a myth that the Canadiens don't attract FAs and it's just blatantly untrue.

I just don’t agree with you there. There is documented proof of Bergevin going after Point and Tavares and being met with no thanks to even discussing it. I have followed the Habs for 40+ years and the last 20 have been the bleakest. I genuinely cannot think of a single, game breaking UFA the “can turn a franchise around” level player hit the market, much less want to come to Montreal. Even the Candy, Gio, Gill players were coming from out of the lockout where Gainey, a hugely respected GM convinced them to come with large contracts and the promise of being a contender out of the gate with a big splash. Not something likely to happen in todays game and with an aging Habs team who are in complete disarray. So the combination of franchise players availability, mixed in with a rebuilding Canadian team doesn’t give me much hope of this being a probable rebuilding strategy. If by some miracle, 2-3 franchise level players want to come here in 2 years, then sure, we’ll be a contender. But that’s a very low probability strategy and not one a cerebral person like Gorton will build a rebuild on.

 

[Guy Larose]

Anyone who thinks this is going to be a scorched earth type of rebuild, needs to give their head a shake. It'll be somewhere in the middle to stay somewhat competitive. Some vets will be sold off but not all, book it.

 

[ZUKI]

Not quite, before the salary cap era, Montreal could simply not sign anyone and would lose their UFAs. During the Gainey era, the team had some level of respectability and signed many. Hamrlik, Kovalev, Gionta, Cammy, etc. With BargainBin, that all went downhill.

Radulov used the Habs, in a way, to get back to the NHL. Cole was signed by Gauthier. BargainBin couldn't sign any impact player except after Covid hit and basically Radulov. It kinda reflects his incompentence.

i really like how you re-invent history.

Gainey has lost Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, Komisarek, Lang, Schneider just in one single summer without any return at all . That gave him a lot of money to sign Gionta and Cammy for more money that they would have dreamed. Kovalev was obtained by a trade.

 

[Gravity]

They had made the playoffs the two seasons before signing Tavares. One can argue that they should not have signed him, but it had nothing to do with rebuilding. They were competing for 2 years before they signed him. They had just come off a game 7 loss to Boston.

They threw off their entire ability to sign their core to more reasonable contracts and to be able to construct a deeper roster via the draft. It absolutely had everything to do with rebuilding. It ended it prematurely and directly affected the outcome.

 

[417]

You've made it abundantly clear that 4 years without making the playoffs would be a miserable failure.



I didn't just say it, I cited it. And I'm not sure what you'd call the GM saying they were rebuilding and trading your number 1 C for futures is called, but I call it a rebuild.



Good for you?



First of all, the Leafs rebuild was executed very well and looking at the Leafs but to not a team like Buffalo or Edmonton or probably unfairly sets expectations. Second of all, they got lucky with Matthews. Third of all, I don't know how we can argue that their situation was much worse than Montreal's given that they had actually been a pretty strong drafting team for years before they actually rebuilt and had less players with money and term.



What do you care, they missed the playoffs 4 years in a row, you would have fired him yourself.

You’re arguing a lot of things I haven’t even debated so I’ll just respond to the last part of your post.

The Rangers did not miss the playoffs 4 years in a row…THIS is technically the 4th year and they’re 6th overall, influenced largely by moves made by Gordon.

Either way, this falls right into what I said about having a competitive team as soon as 2 years from now…

The Rangers missed the playoffs for 2 seasons, and have been a competitive team ever since…INCLUDING losing in the play-in round (better?) last year and being 6th overall this year.

Under no circumstance should it be acceptable to miss the playoffs for the next 4 years…I think Gorton would say the same.

 

[Runner77]

We need a trade to give us something to talk about

The naming of a GM might get that ball rolling. Not sure Gorton might do anything on his own.

I’m OK with waiting, it’s a new administration, they need to know what they have and what is disposable.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

They threw off their entire ability to sign their core to more reasonable contracts and to be able to construct a deeper roster via the draft. It absolutely had everything to do with rebuilding. It ended it prematurely and directly affected the outcome.

You're really going to have to explain to me how a team that had made the playoffs two years in a row was a rebuilding club. Signing Tavares goofed up their cap structure, not their actual attempt to rebuild the club to make it competitive!

Also, how did they stop rebuilding prematurely? They didn't sign anyone of note before Tavares (and had made the playoffs twice in a row before he was available). The only thing that happened that made them a playoff team was that Matthews and Marner made the roster. Are you going to suggest that they should not have been playing?

 

[417]

No, the crème of the crème simply don't come here period. You mentionned it in your past: Tavares, Panarin, forget it.

Montreal somehow manages to pick up some good complementary players, but not what we call elite or game changers. But before Covid hit, even middle class top UFAs would simply not sign here and use the Habs as leverage. Yes, somehow the Habs got a year's worth of Cole and Radulov, but all that ended up in disaster anyways.

With BargainBin, we became accostumed to the annual dumpster diving discounts. That meant signing has-beens or UFA frenzy of fringe NHLers, giving second chances, and repratiating former Habs or francophones that wanted to retire in a Hab's uniform. Off course, Brière didn't work out so well.

I think it’s more the cream of the crop don’t make it free agency anymore

 

[417]

I just don’t agree with you there. There is documented proof of Bergevin going after Point and Tavares and being met with no thanks to even discussing it. I have followed the Habs for 40+ years and the last 20 have been the bleakest. I genuinely cannot think of a single, game breaking UFA the “can turn a franchise around” level player hit the market, much less want to come to Montreal. Even the Candy, Gio, Gill players were coming from out of the lockout where Gainey, a hugely respected GM convinced them to come with large contracts and the promise of being a contender out of the gate with a big splash. Not something likely to happen in todays game and with an aging Habs team who are in complete disarray. So the combination of franchise players availability, mixed in with a rebuilding Canadian team doesn’t give me much hope of this being a probable rebuilding strategy. If by some miracle, 2-3 franchise level players want to come here in 2 years, then sure, we’ll be a contender. But that’s a very low probability strategy and not one a cerebral person like Gorton will build a rebuild on.

Point wasn’t a free agent and players of Tavares ilk rarely go to free agency.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Point wasn’t a free agent and players of Tavares ilk rarely go to free agency.

So trying to rebuild around a strategy of signing players like that is a terrible plan. And rebuilding through the draft takes time, even if you land a star player. Only reason Rangers were able to jump start their rebuild was because they landed Panarin and Fox. Two all star, franchise level players to compliment their depth of youth who haven’t reached their level yet.

 

[BozoTheClown]

You’re arguing a lot of things I haven’t even debated so I’ll just respond to the last part of your post.

The Rangers did not miss the playoffs 4 years in a row…THIS is technically the 4th year and they’re 6th overall, influenced largely by moves made by Gordon.

Either way, this falls right into what I said about having a competitive team as soon as 2 years from now…

The Rangers missed the playoffs for 2 seasons, and have been a competitive team ever since…INCLUDING losing in the play-in round (better?) last year and being 6th overall this year.

Under no circumstance should it be acceptable to miss the playoffs for the next 4 years…I think Gorton would say the same.

i think it should take somewhere in between 3 to 5 years. Teams like Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay all missed the playoffs for several years in a row and slowly build their team through the draft and smart trading. Most of those teams have also hit the jackpot at the drafting table, setting them up for multiples Stanley cups in the last 20 years.

But so many things needs to all come together at the same time to win it all.

 

[417]

So trying to rebuild around a strategy of signing players like that is a terrible plan. And rebuilding through the draft takes time, even if you land a star player. Only reason Rangers were able to jump start their rebuild was because they landed Panarin and Fox. Two all star, franchise level players to compliment their depth of youth who haven’t reached their level yet.

I’m not saying otherwise…I just agreed with @Spring in Fialta take that rebuilding exclusively through the draft doesn’t make sense.

You have to be agile enough to shift course when the opportunities are there.

I don’t think the Rangers knew Panarin and Fox would be free agents when they declared they were rebuilding, but when they did they pounced…but that didn’t mean they abandoned their plan.