Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[Spring in Fialta]

This isn't the same Habs team as that which went to the finals.

They've lost Price, Weber, Danault, Perry, Kotkaniemi and have added Drouin, Montambeault, Dvorak, Hoffman, Perrault, Pacquette, Savard. Alternatively,

Price > Montambeault
Danault > Dvorak
Kotkaniemi > Pacquette
Weber > Savard
Perry > Drouin

Nobody's arguing that it's the same team, just that it's hard to know what we actually have at the forward position and in net. It's not like Price isn't coming back on short-term contracts. Montembault and Paquette are nothing players. I'm not sure why you're mentioning as if they matter.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Odd that someone who cheers for the Montreal Canadiens would argue this isn't disputable.

Let's look back at our last 3 top 5 picks

- Price @ 5 or Kopitar @ 11?
- Galchenyuk @ 3 or Forsberg @ 11 ?
- Kotkaniemi @ 3 or Tkachuk @ 4 ? (though I still think this is kind of early)

Let me ask...what was more important?

Having the lower pick?

or

Scouting and picking the right player?


Again, you're looking at this like most do...thinking that draft picks are exclusively for the team to use for picking players and keeping them.

Draft picks are ASSETS.


Cool story.

I never said anything about them becoming a contender in 2 years.

The amount of time we waste posting and replying, instead of reading and comprehending is astouding.


You've clearly demonstrated that.

Realest shit you said so far.

Well your sample size and recency bias aside, that's not how statistics work. Just because you're cherry picking very specific occurrences doesn't make that the norm. So all your samples really don't account for much. Galchenyuk was drafted in a really poor draft year, and KK wasn't close to be a consensus top 3 pick and was picked to fill a need.

Now if you want to start trading your assets when you still don't have a core to build around, you're stealing from Peter to pay Paul and won't be any closer to being a contender then we are now.

I never said you said they'd be a contender in 2 years. I said that if they only rebuilt in 2 years, they'd be a middling pick so why not do it properly rather than cut corners and do a full tits to toes rebuild. I don't know about you but I'm tired of watching middling hockey and trying to scrape into the playoffs for the past 30 years. I'd rather rip the band aid, go all in and take advantage of the next two years drafts and actually build a contender the right way than FastTrack like Bergevin tried with his rest that got us into the situation to begin with. Why can't you comprehend that??

I'd love to know how you plan and being a competitive team in 2 years with what we have working for us and against currently.

 

[sampollock]

Gagnon has said Stéphane Quintal is a strong candidate for the GM position and that the former head of the NHL Player Safety Department will be going through job interviews in the coming weeks

 

[417]

Well your sample size and regency bias aside, that's not how statistics work. Just because you're cherry picking very specific occurrences doesn't make that the norm. So all your samples really don't account for much. Galchenyuk was drafted in a really poor draft year, and KK wasn't close to be a consensus top 3 pick and was picked to fill a need.

We are talking about the Montreal Canadiens...I just went back 16 years, i'm sorry the Habs have only picked 3 times within that time frame but I can't fabricate data that doesn't exist.

If you want...apply the same logic to who was picked after Sidney Crosby in 05.

Was it more important for the Anaheim Ducks to finish 2nd overall and select Bobby Ryan? Or was it more important for them to pick the best player after Crosby, which we now know to be Anze Kopitar. Having the 2nd overall pick only guaranteed them the 2nd overall pick, it's not a guarantee of picking the 2nd best player.

Of course, i'm not suggesting that applying hindsight years after the draft is the way to go.

What i'm trying to point out is that draft position matters less than drafting the right player no matter where you're picking.

You can't/don't position your draft spot...but you can make sure you're dedicating the right amount of resources to not mess up your top pick.

No matter where you're picking..1st...12th..23rd or 31st...you just have to pick someone who becomes an asset for your orgnization.

Now if you want to start trading your assets when you still don't have a core to build around, you're stealing from Peter to pay Paul and won't be any closer to being a contender then we are now.

Again...draft picks/prospects/AHL players/NHL players.

They're all assets.

If an opportunity arises that can make your team better, i'm sorry but you have to be agile enough in your planning to adjust.

Taking this silo approach to building is not a good practice.

I never said you said they'd be a contender in 2 years. I said that if they only rebuilt in 2 years, they'd be a middling pick so why not do it properly rather than cut corners and do a full tits to toes rebuild. I don't know about you but I'm tired of watching middling hockey and trying to scrape into the playoffs for the past 30 years. I'd rather rip the band aid, go all in and take advantage of the next two years drafts and actually build a contender the right way than FastTrack like Bergevin tried with his rest that got us into the situation to begin with. Why can't you comprehend that??

Because I don't believe in fairy tales or fantasies...this idea that we're just going to "rip the band aid" and get rid of a bunch of contracts, stack up top 5 picks for a yet-to-be-determined period of time and come out of that a Cup contender is not reality.

Sorry, don't mean to be an ass or difficult...I completely comprehend what you're proposing, but I think that works better on PS5 or Xbox than it does in real life.

You want to take advantage of the next 2 drafts?

Perfect, so do I..you can do so without having a liquidation sale. I outlined it earlier, but the Habs should easily come out of this trade deadline with 2 extra 1sts, potentially 2 2nds and 4 3rds (they already have 3 of them), just by moving pending UFAs like Chiarot or Kulak or a RFA like Lehkonen.

That's how you take advantage of a draft.

I'd love to know how you plan and being a competitive team in 2 years with what we have working for us and against currently.

I ain't the GM...ask him or her when they're appointed.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Gagnon has said Stéphane Quintal is a strong candidate for the GM position and that the former head of the NHL Player Safety Department will be going through job interviews in the coming weeks

But why

 

[Sterling Archer]

We are talking about the Montreal Canadiens...I just went back 16 years, i'm sorry the Habs have only picked 3 times within that time frame but I can't fabricate data that doesn't exist.

If you want...apply the same logic to who was picked after Sidney Crosby in 05.

Was it more important for the Anaheim Ducks to finish 2nd overall and select Bobby Ryan? Or was it more important for them to pick the best player after Crosby, which we now know to be Anze Kopitar. Having the 2nd overall pick only guaranteed them the 2nd overall pick, it's not a guarantee of picking the 2nd best player.

Of course, i'm not suggesting that applying hindsight years after the draft is the way to go.

What i'm trying to point out is that draft position matters less than drafting the right player no matter where you're picking.

You can't/don't position your draft spot...but you can make sure you're dedicating the right amount of resources to not mess up your top pick.

No matter where you're picking..1st...12th..23rd or 31st...you just have to pick someone who becomes an asset for your orgnization.


Again...draft picks/prospects/AHL players/NHL players.

They're all assets.

If an opportunity arises that can make your team better, i'm sorry but you have to be agile enough in your planning to adjust.

Taking this silo approach to building is not a good practice.


Because I don't believe in fairy tales or fantasies...this idea that we're just going to "rip the band aid" and get rid of a bunch of contracts, stack up top 5 picks for a yet-to-be-determined period of time and come out of that a Cup contender is not reality.

Sorry, don't mean to be an ass or difficult...I completely comprehend what you're proposing, but I think that works better on PS5 or Xbox than it does in real life.

You want to take advantage of the next 2 drafts?

Perfect, so do I..you can do so without having a liquidation sale. I outlined it earlier, but the Habs should easily come out of this trade deadline with 2 extra 1sts, potentially 2 2nds and 4 3rds (they already have 3 of them), just by moving pending UFAs like Chiarot or Kulak or a RFA like Lehkonen.

That's how you take advantage of a draft.


I ain't the GM...ask him or her when they're appointed.

It seems to me that your basing your entire argument on the Canadiens being able to beat the odds and be able to draft top tier players later in the draft to rebuild the team in two years, when the odds are completely stacked against them doing so as they’re not even capable of drafting that type of player when they’re picking top 3!
Sorry but agree to disagree with you there. I like Gorton but don’t think he has magical draft beans to rebuild a team in 2 years. Even if he did, it would take longer than that to develop them and if you trade them, you’re back to square one with high payroll and not enough prospects. Just don’t see it.

 

[CHfan1]

That depends how you define competitive/contending.

A team that has committed to rebuilding, should be trying to compete for the playoffs within 2 years...you can't be perpetually accumulating high picks because it's fun.

There are steps that must be reached before you become a contending team...you don't just collect top 5 picks for 5 straight years and then POOF! you're magically a Cup contending team in year 6.

It seems like you’d prefer the Habs to retool instead of doing a rebuild. If the Habs were to rebuild through the draft it’ll take more than 2 years for those players to have an impact at the NHL level (most won’t even be in the league during that timeframe).

Of course there is ways to speed it up, trading draft picks for NHL level players (see the Dvorak trade) or signing UFA’s (the top ones will command long term deals though).

 

[tazsub3]

It seems like you’d prefer the Habs to retool instead of doing a rebuild. If the Habs were to rebuild through the draft it’ll take more than 2 years for those players to have an impact at the NHL level (most won’t even be in the league during that timeframe).

Of course there is ways to speed it up, trading draft picks for NHL level players (see the Dvorak trade) or signing UFA’s (the top ones will command long term deals though).

I think a lot will depend on how gorton views our next wave of prospects.
if he views the current wave of prosects, and especially the young dmen Ghule , Harris, etc etc as top prospects (in his eyes) then a retool would become much more likely.
Keep in mind, people talking for a full rebuilt are forgetting we have accumulated tons of picks already and if those player are developed well, then a 2 year time frame of a retool is logical, only key would be having a top development team and method.
Of course the other key would be adding top 3 talent in this draft.

 

[417]

It seems to me that your basing your entire argument on the Canadiens being able to beat the odds and be able to draft top tier players later in the draft to rebuild the team in two years, when the odds are completely stacked against them doing so as they’re not even capable of drafting that type of player when they’re picking top 3!
Sorry but agree to disagree with you there. I like Gorton but don’t think he has magical draft beans to rebuild a team in 2 years. Even if he did, it would take longer than that to develop them and if you trade them, you’re back to square one with high payroll and not enough prospects. Just don’t see it.

I understand the laws of probability…you’re not teaching me anything I don’t know here.

I don’t think what is bolded above.

You interpreted that all on your own.

what I’m telling you is that the Habs can’t miss on their early picks anymore. Whether they’re picking 3rd or 15th.

I obviously don’t expect a 6th round pick to turn into a star. But I also think the more picks you have…the greater the probability that you hit.

 

[417]

It seems like you’d prefer the Habs to retool instead of doing a rebuild. If the Habs were to rebuild through the draft it’ll take more than 2 years for those players to have an impact at the NHL level (most won’t even be in the league during that timeframe).

Of course there is ways to speed it up, trading draft picks for NHL level players (see the Dvorak trade) or signing UFA’s (the top ones will command long term deals though).

Retool or Rebuild…I really don’t care how you define it.

I just don’t agree that you “rebuildl by intentionally being bad for 5 years. The goal should ALWAYS be to get better.

 

[CHfan1]

I think a lot will depend on how gorton views our next wave of prospects.
if he views the current wave of prosects, and especially the young dmen Ghule , Harris, etc etc as top prospects (in his eyes) then a retool would become much more likely.
Keep in mind, people talking for a full rebuilt are forgetting we have accumulated tons of picks already and if those player are developed well, then a 2 year time frame of a retool is logical, only key would be having a top development team and method.
Of course the other key would be adding top 3 talent in this draft.

Agreed, but in the next couple of years how many of those prospects can step into the NHL and have a big impact contributing to turning this franchise around. I hope they can but I think it’s going to take awhile. Suzuki, Caufield, and Romanov taking an extra step or three will really help as well of course.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I understand the laws of probability…you’re not teaching me anything I don’t know here.

I don’t think what is bolded above.

You interpreted that all on your own.

what I’m telling you is that the Habs can’t miss on their early picks anymore. Whether they’re picking 3rd or 15th.

I obviously don’t expect a 6th round pick to turn into a star. But I also think the more picks you have…the greater the probability that you hit.

And what I’m telling you is that there’s a huge difference in the success of a 3rd pick vs a 15th and that the Habs even f*** up the top picks when they have had them. Hoping a 15th picked by the Habs will be as good as a 3rd is the definition of a fever dream. The odds are completely stacked against this scenario happening so makes no sense to base a rebuild around this hoping it happens. Sorry but I’m just not that optimistic about our drafting.

 

[CHfan1]

Retool or Rebuild…I really don’t care how you define it.

I just don’t agree that you “rebuildl by intentionally being bad for 5 years. The goal should ALWAYS be to get better.

They’ve been trying that approach for a long time now, just trying to get better to compete for a playoff spot. They just tried it again last off-season trading a 1st for Dvorak, and signing Hoffman and Savard to long term deals.

At some point they need to step back and rebuild through the draft (which is the most likely place for a team to land top talent that can actually turn a franchise around). But in doing that they have to be patient because it’ll take a few years for those draft picks to make an impact at the NHL level.

 

[417]

And what I’m telling you is that there’s a huge difference in the success of a 3rd pick vs a 15th and that the Habs even f*** up the top picks when they have had them.

So that means you intentionally make your team bad in the hopes that you not only keep that 3rd pick in a lottery but that your entire plan to rebuild hinges on a draft pick?

Sorry, I don’t think you plan an entire organizational strategy around a chance happening?

Nah…

Of course, if you go into a season like the Habs have had and you’re terrible and the circumstances make it so that you pick in the top 3…great.

But I don’t believe in gutting you’re roster in an attempt to artificially make that happen.

Hoping a 15th picked by the Habs will be as good as a 3rd is the definition of a fever dream. The odds are completely stacked against this scenario happening so makes no sense to base a rebuild around this hoping it happens.

I hope our scouts would think differently.

You make your pick count, no matter where it is (talking about the 1st/2nd round obviously)

 

[Sterling Archer]

So that means you intentionally make your team bad in the hopes that you not only keep that 3rd pick in a lottery but that your entire plan to rebuild hinges on a draft pick?

Sorry, I don’t think you plan an entire organizational strategy around a chance happening?

Nah…

Of course, if you go into a season like the Habs have had and you’re terrible and the circumstances make it so that you pick in the top 3…great.

But I don’t believe in gutting you’re roster in an attempt to artificially make that happen.


I hope our scouts would think differently.

You make your pick count, no matter where it is (talking about the 1st/2nd round obviously)

Same approach as the last few decades will get you the same results. I don’t want the same. I’m willing to properly rebuild which they should’ve done years ago to build a real contender. But hey, to each their own. Let’s hope they can draft the next McDavid at 15 and plan accordingly.

 

[417]

They’ve been trying that approach for a long time now, just trying to get better to compete for a playoff spot. They just tried it again last off-season trading a 1st for Dvorak, and signing Hoffman and Savard to long term deals.

I didn't outline any approach, so not sure how you came to the conclusion that i'm advocating for them to just compete for a playoffs.

The problem with what you're suggesting, with Dvorak/Hoffman/Savard is not necessarily the decision to get players via free agency & the trade market (both just as valuable mechanisms for improving your roster as much as the draft) perhaps it has more to do with the players targeted?

At some point they need to step back and rebuild through the draft (which is the most likely place for a team to land top talent that can actually turn a franchise around). But in doing that they have to be patient because it’ll take a few years for those draft picks to make an impact at the NHL level.

Yes of course, they need to build through the draft, no one has suggested otherwise...it's the most common thing people repeat, I think i've referenced several times that I want them to accumulate draft picks because I think that really helps your organization be aggressive in all 3 phases of player procurement (amateur draft/trade/free agency).

Also, yes they need to be patient with the draft picks, but draft picks aren't all necessarily destined to be your NHL roster...they're assets too, they can be traded to improve the roster as well.

 

[417]

Same approach as the last few decades will get you the same results. I don’t want the same.

I'm not advocating for same approach as the last few decades, in fact it's the complete opposite of everything they've ever done.

So we both don't want the same...we just have different views on how they can move forward, and that's OK.

I’m willing to properly rebuild which they should’ve done years ago to build a real contender. But hey, to each their own. Let’s hope they can draft the next McDavid at 15 and plan accordingly.

Oh we've gotten to the stage where we're using strawmen now?

Cool...

Hey I never suggested the Habs could draft a McDavid at 15, I mean...how you came up with that, i'm not sure. Lame nonetheless.

But I surely hope they could draft a Trevor Zegras 9th? Or Cale Makar 4th?

Once more, I don't give a **** where they pick, just don't miss.

Like that lame McDavid joke.

 

[Runner77]

Precisely...

Way too many people are obsessed with gutting this team in order to finish in the bottom 3 for 5 straight years...thinking that the quickest way to make this team a Cup contending team.

But it's not..that's the quickest way to being the perpetually losing Arizona Coyotes.

I don’t mind some low level years.

However, while the team is not competitive, I’m just hoping that they can land a franchise-type player who is an offensive forward even if it takes a few shots at a high pick to get him. Losing and not having one solid impact offensive player has got to be the most bitter pill any fan can be asked to swallow.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I'm not advocating for same approach as the last few decades, in fact it's the complete opposite of everything they've ever done.

So we both don't want the same...we just have different views on how they can move forward, and that's OK.


Oh we've gotten to the stage where we're using strawmen now?

Cool...

Hey I never suggested the Habs could draft a McDavid at 15, I mean...how you came up with that, i'm not sure. Lame nonetheless.

But I surely hope they could draft a Trevor Zegras 9th? Or Cale Makar 4th?

Once more, I don't give a **** where they pick, just don't miss.

Like that lame McDavid joke.

They can only draft those players if they’re a bottom 10 team. Hardly competitive.

 

[417]

I don’t mind some low level years.

If the team is not competitive, I’m just hoping that they can land a franchise-type player who is an offensive forward even if it takes a few shots at a high pick to land him.

100% I just don’t have a particular preference for how that player is acquired and I don’t think he can exclusively be found by trying to suck.

I couldn’t agree more with the need to find a true franchise player, one whose not a goalie.

I also don’t mind some low level years, if it’s organic, but it’s also just as important, at least for me, to see guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov and the rest who will join the Habs in the next 2-3 years to develop and have success, that’s as much part of it as picking 1st overall.

This wanting to breed losing and bleed that kind of thinking into the organization…just doesn’t sit right with me.

That also doesn’t mean that I want a “half in/half out” approach either.

 

[ZUKI]

Can anyone think of a team that rebuilt themselves in 2 years to become a competitive/contending team in the cap era? I'm not sure if there is a team, but if there is, they would be the exception and certainly not the rule.

According to their fans, i've read it has been done by the Maple Leafs.

 

[BozoTheClown]

According to their fans, i've read it has been done by the Maple Leafs.

Toronto drafted top 10 4 times in the last 10 years. They also hit on their prospects 3 drafts in a row, Nylander, Marner and Matthews.
They also were able to sign Tavares, a former 1st overall pick.
Just right there, within 5 years, they added 4 high end talent, and that’s with some luck in their side.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

They’ve been trying that approach for a long time now, just trying to get better to compete for a playoff spot. They just tried it again last off-season trading a 1st for Dvorak, and signing Hoffman and Savard to long term deals.

At some point they need to step back and rebuild through the draft (which is the most likely place for a team to land top talent that can actually turn a franchise around). But in doing that they have to be patient because it’ll take a few years for those draft picks to make an impact at the NHL level.

There is nothing wrong with giving up that 1st for Dvorak, even with our current record. You can't just have Suzuki and Evans after him.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

According to their fans, i've read it has been done by the Maple Leafs.

Kind of. Marner/Matthews pretty much made them a playoff team right away. They had bad seasons before and goy Rielly/Nylander out of it, who are very good players. But scorched earth lasted two seasons.

 

[CHfan1]

I didn't outline any approach, so not sure how you came to the conclusion that i'm advocating for them to just compete for a playoffs.

The problem with what you're suggesting, with Dvorak/Hoffman/Savard is not necessarily the decision to get players via free agency & the trade market (both just as valuable mechanisms for improving your roster as much as the draft) perhaps it has more to do with the players targeted?


Yes of course, they need to build through the draft, no one has suggested otherwise...it's the most common thing people repeat, I think i've referenced several times that I want them to accumulate draft picks because I think that really helps your organization be aggressive in all 3 phases of player procurement (amateur draft/trade/free agency).

Also, yes they need to be patient with the draft picks, but draft picks aren't all necessarily destined to be your NHL roster...they're assets too, they can be traded to improve the roster as well.

I think the draft is a more value mechanism in finding franchise altering players and building a Cup contender. When it comes to trades or free agents teams are competing against 31 other franchises for that player. In free agency a team typically has to overpay on a long term contract for a top talent player.

The only problem with the draft is a team has to wait years for that player to make a big impact at the NHL level unless their lucky enough to win the lottery in a great draft year. That’s why I think it’ll take longer than 2 years to properly rebuild this franchise where they can not only compete for a playoff spot but contend for the Cup.

Anyways we disagree on the approach the Habs should take and how long a rebuild will take (which is fine and I hope it takes less time). I’m just hoping they pick a direction. It seems they’ve been stuck in mediocrity for a long time and that’s partly due to not being able to pick a direction and terrible drafting and development, imo.