Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[Vachon23]

Saying that long rebuild never lead to good things is dishonest.

I think good models for rebuild are Tampa Bay and Chicago (Long rebuild that can take 4+ years).

The Lighting were dead last in the NHL in 2007-2008 before drafting Stamkos, 29th out of 30 in 2008-2009 before drafting Hedman, 25th out of 30 in 2009-2010 (nothing special happened for them in that draft), then ended up 8th in the league in year 4 (ended up lucky and felt on Kucherov and Palat in 2011. But they got a set back by year 5, ended up 21th on 30 in 2011-2012, they drafted their franchise goaltender in Vasilevskiy in the first round. 28th in year 2012-2013, which allowed them to draft Jonathan Drouin which got them eventually Sergachev.
Year 6 was the turn around, were they finished 8th in the league (but still lucked out on Point in the turd round). They never loocked back again. But it's only by year 10 that they actually started competing for the cup.

In took them 6 years to build there core, and the three first season they were bottom of the league.

Another long rebuilding success story is Chicago.

2003-2004 they ended up 29th out of 30th and ended up picking Cam Barker at 3 overall. 2005-2006 they finish 28th out of 30 and land Jonathan Toews as their futur captain at 3rd overall. Finishing 26th in 2006-2007, they land Patrick Kane at first overall. Next season, they finish 20th and still misses playoff. It's only by year 4 that they started becoming competitive, after Keith and Seabrook finally developped into solid defenseman. The rest is history (3 Stanley Cups).

The moral of the story is that you need to be patient if you are going to be rebuilding, and elite drafting and development is the key, as always since you need to have your franchise players to have any hope of becoming a team that is competitive for the cup, and not only a bubble team.

And you need to be lucky that those draft have elite talent. If you rebuild between 2018-2020, it will be harder to do like Chicago who had Toews/Kane or Pittsburgh with Crosby/Malkin

 

[Sterling Archer]

Saying that long rebuild never lead to good things is dishonest.

I think good models for rebuild are Tampa Bay and Chicago (Long rebuild that can take 4+ years).

The Lighting were dead last in the NHL in 2007-2008 before drafting Stamkos, 29th out of 30 in 2008-2009 before drafting Hedman, 25th out of 30 in 2009-2010 (nothing special happened for them in that draft), then ended up 8th in the league in year 4 (ended up lucky and felt on Kucherov and Palat in 2011. But they got a set back by year 5, ended up 21th on 30 in 2011-2012, they drafted their franchise goaltender in Vasilevskiy in the first round. 28th in year 2012-2013, which allowed them to draft Jonathan Drouin which got them eventually Sergachev.

Year 6 was the turn around, were they finished 8th in the league (but still lucked out on Point in the turd round). They never looked back again. But it's only by year 10 that they actually started competing for the cup.

In took them 6 years to build there core, and the three first season they were bottom of the league.

Another long rebuilding success story is Chicago.

2003-2004 they ended up 29th out of 30th and ended up picking Cam Barker at 3 overall. 2005-2006 they finish 28th out of 30 and land Jonathan Toews as their futur captain at 3rd overall. Finishing 26th in 2006-2007, they land Patrick Kane at first overall. Next season, they finish 20th and still misses playoff. It's only by year 4 that they started becoming competitive, after Keith and Seabrook finally developped into solid defenseman. The rest is history (3 Stanley Cups).

The moral of the story is that you need to be patient if you are going to be rebuilding, and elite drafting and development is the key, as always since you need to have your franchise players to have any hope of becoming a team that is competitive for the cup, and not only a bubble team.

And this should be the model for a rebuild IMO. Not rushing it like Bergy did 3 years ago and "retooling" but what Gorton did in NY, Tampa, etc. The only way to get real game breaking star players is by drafting them as they rarely get traded and even less often hit the market, not to mention the cost to acquire is prohibitive. Trades are to surround the homegrown talent with more depth and experience, but drat is to build the team and you need a lot more than 2 years to draft top end talent and the odds are the higher in the draft you pick, the better the player will be. With guys like Wright, Michkov, Bedard available, those are core pieces to build around, not Suzuki, Romanov and Caufield though they add to that equation.

 

[Sterling Archer]

And you need to be lucky that those draft have elite talent. If you rebuild between 2018-2020, it will be harder to do like Chicago who had Toews/Kane or Pittsburgh with Crosby/Malkin

And to have the odds in your fabour, you need to pick high in the draft i.e top 2 or 3. Odds of finding those players in the teens or later are astronomically high.

 

[BozoTheClown]

This site is unbearable with the random reloading of the page in the middle of writing a reply.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Saying that long rebuild never lead to good things is dishonest.

I think good models for rebuild are Tampa Bay and Chicago (Long rebuild that can take 4+ years).

The Lighting were dead last in the NHL in 2007-2008 before drafting Stamkos, 29th out of 30 in 2008-2009 before drafting Hedman, 25th out of 30 in 2009-2010 (nothing special happened for them in that draft), then ended up 8th in the league in year 4 (ended up lucky and felt on Kucherov and Palat in 2011. But they got a set back by year 5, ended up 21th on 30 in 2011-2012, they drafted their franchise goaltender in Vasilevskiy in the first round. 28th in year 2012-2013, which allowed them to draft Jonathan Drouin which got them eventually Sergachev.

Year 6 was the turn around, were they finished 8th in the league (but still lucked out on Point in the turd round). They never looked back again. But it's only by year 10 that they actually started competing for the cup.

In took them 6 years to build there core, and the three first season they were bottom of the league.

Another long rebuilding success story is Chicago.

2003-2004 they ended up 29th out of 30th and ended up picking Cam Barker at 3 overall. 2005-2006 they finish 28th out of 30 and land Jonathan Toews as their futur captain at 3rd overall. Finishing 26th in 2006-2007, they land Patrick Kane at first overall. Next season, they finish 20th and still misses playoff. It's only by year 5 that they started becoming competitive, after Keith and Seabrook finally developped into solid defenseman. The rest is history (3 Stanley Cups).

The moral of the story is that you need to be patient if you are going to be rebuilding, and elite drafting and development is the key, as always since you need to have your franchise players to have any hope of becoming a team that is competitive for the cup, and not only a bubble team.

The bolded is what bothers me about all these people complaining about missing the playoffs for X seasons. The important thing in a rebuild is building a viable contending core of players. The Habs basically don't have any core at the moment and we aren't sure how many of Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc. will actually be core players in the future.

Most cup winning teams had to be really bad for a while and get lucky. Tampa, Chicago, LA and Pittsburgh fit that mold. Even St. Louis needed to suffer for a bit to get the pieces they needed.

Improvement isn't linear, all you can do is make sure you get high picks, give yourself as much information as possible and trade enough guys to get extra shots in the draft while keeping enough guys that will help teach younger players and build accountability.

 

[vokiel]

Any trade proposals in this thread?

Drouing, Mailloux + 2024 1st for PLD

 

[HabsCode]

even the Penguins didn't bottom feed 4 years in a row (three and they were a bankrupt franchise
And they tried to compete in that third year, 05-06).

This isn't true, actually.

Pittsburg was bottom of the barell for 4 season straight and probably would have been 5 if it wasn't for the lock-out. It wasn't until Crosby and Malkin started to go wild that things started to change.

They ended up 26th out of 30 in 2001-2002 and got Ryan Whitney at 5th overall. They ended up 29th out of 30 teams in 2002-2003 and got Marc-Andre Fleury at first overall. They ended-up dead last in 2003-2004 and landed futur HHOF Malkin. Lucked out on Crosby in 2005 which would probably have been another poor season for them otherwise. Then ended up 29th out of 30 in 2005-2006 despite having superstar rookie Crosby in the line-up and ended-up drafting Jordan Staal at 2nd overall. They only ended up making the playoff by year 5, when rookie Malkin joined the club and ended up over PPG, while Crosby had his best season in his career. Still got eliminated in 5 in the first round thought.

Still didn't stop them to win three Stanley Cups.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I'm not hoping for anything. This is obvious from my posts. I want this team to be proactive without tying itself down to a toxic mentality like we've seen in Buffalo or Arizona.

To be proactive you need to pick up a direction and go for it, otherwise you end up failing like we did for the last 6 years.

Now if you dont think its a good idea to tank, given the state of the team Id love to read how you plan on brining this team back to contender status (faster than with a tank)

 

[417]

The bolded is what bothers me about all these people complaining about missing the playoffs for X seasons. The important thing in a rebuild is building a viable contending core of players. The Habs basically don't have any core at the moment and we aren't sure how many of Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc. will actually be core players in the future.

Most cup winning teams had to be really bad for a while and get lucky. Tampa, Chicago, LA and Pittsburgh fit that mold. Even St. Louis needed to suffer for a bit to get the pieces they needed.

Improvement isn't linear, all you can do is make sure you get high picks, give yourself as much information as possible and trade enough guys to get extra shots in the draft while keeping enough guys that will help teach younger players and build accountability.

What bothers me even more is the apparent willingness for installing a losing culture that so many seem eager to want.

Let's sacrifice the development of guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc...so we can have a 25% (probably not even that high) chance of drafting Connor Bedard or Michkov in 2 years.

Lose! Lose! Lose!

 

[Riggins]

Let's get Edmonton's 1st asap. I don't want to wait around for Chiarot to get injured and miss out on a sweet return.

 

[Vachon23]

Let's get Edmonton's 1st asap. I don't want to wait around for Chiarot to get injured and miss out on a sweet return.

The thing is that the Oilers probably don’t have this offer on the table right know and it won’t be on the table until the TDL when they will have the place

 

[Captain Mountain]

What bothers me even more is the apparent willingness for installing a losing culture that so many seem eager to have.

Let's sacrifice the development of guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc...so we can have a 25% chance of drafting Connor Bedard in 2 years.

Lose! Lose! Lose!

That is a massive leap of logic TBH. You can avoid having a culture that accepts losing and develop players while still trying to get key pieces through the draft. Its what nearly every cup winner in the modern era has done. They somehow managed

Lets just do what Bergevin started doing in 2017-2018, but better! He probably did as good a job balancing acquiring extra picks and competing every year as possible, but if the Habs just had the ability to predict the few players taken later every draft are, then its all good!

If guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc. are actually core guys worth building around, they'll demonstrated it pretty soon and prevent the team from being too bad.

This is a cap league, parity is a thing. There are cycles. Also, most of the cautionary tale rebuilds went off the rails because teams got impatient and wanted to start competing faster, made mistakes through trades and free agency to achieve that and created a poor culture by setting unrealistic goals.

 

[Vachon23]

What bothers me even more is the apparent willingness for installing a losing culture that so many seem eager to want.

Let's sacrifice the development of guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc...so we can have a 25% (probably not even that high) chance of drafting Connor Bedard or Michkov in 2 years.

Lose! Lose! Lose!

This ! Ask ex Oilers players that played there between 2010-2015, the loosing culture was horrible there and it’s probably a big reason why they never find a way to succeed even with all those high pick. You need to be careful, when Toews Kane arrived in Chicago, the Hawks did everything they could to surround those young players with good players and when they arrived, the goal was to win

 

[ECWHSWI]

What bothers me even more is the apparent willingness for installing a losing culture that so many seem eager to want.

Let's sacrifice the development of guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc...so we can have a 25% (probably not even that high) chance of drafting Connor Bedard or Michkov in 2 years.

Lose! Lose! Lose!

Speaking of losing culture, we made the playoff only twice in the last 6 years 1. While being 24th in the league 2 while being à .527 team.

In every single one of those years the habs tried to be compétitive, including this very season.

 

[Kwikwi]

What bothers me even more is the apparent willingness for installing a losing culture that so many seem eager to want.

Let's sacrifice the development of guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc...so we can have a 25% (probably not even that high) chance of drafting Connor Bedard or Michkov in 2 years.

Lose! Lose! Lose!

Sacrifice what? Im not following. You learn more in hard time than success.

 

[Sterling Archer]

What bothers me even more is the apparent willingness for installing a losing culture that so many seem eager to want.

Let's sacrifice the development of guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc...so we can have a 25% (probably not even that high) chance of drafting Connor Bedard or Michkov in 2 years.

Lose! Lose! Lose!

Literally no one is saying this. If you want a proper rebuild, it has to be through the draft. And the only way to get players good enough to build around is by picking top 5 or better for several years. Tampa, Pittsburgh, Chicago all did it right by sucking enough to get game changing players over several years. The difference between them and Torino, Edmonton etc. is they already had a base of players to insulate and brought in veteran leaders to show the young kids how and what what they needed to win. But that takes time and two years isn’t enough to get those players and develop them into Croby, Malkin, Toews and Kane. Even if they got Bedard and Wright, they’d still take time to develop and become impact players in the league and that’s a best case scenario.

 

[417]

That is a massive leap of logic TBH. You can avoid having a culture that accepts losing and develop players while still trying to get key pieces through the draft. Its what nearly every cup winner in the modern era has done. They somehow managed

Except that's not what's being described for the most part in this thread.

The only concern is losing as much as possible...no regard for what that does to an organization's identity or it's current players.

Lets just do what Bergevin started doing in 2017-2018, but better! He probably did as good a job balancing acquiring extra picks and competing every year as possible, but if the Habs just had the ability to predict the few players taken later every draft are, then its all good!

Bergevin never had a plan that stretched beyond that year before him.

If guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, etc. are actually core guys worth building around, they'll demonstrated it pretty soon and prevent the team from being too bad.

You still think that if we're gutting the team around them for the sole purpose of being the worst possible team?

This is a cap league, parity is a thing. There are cycles. Also, most of the cautionary tale rebuilds went off the rails because teams got impatient and wanted to start competing faster, made mistakes through trades and free agency to achieve that and created a poor culture by setting unrealistic goals.

There are many reasons why those rebuilds never took off, I don't think impatience was the issue...I think establishing a losing culture and accepting losing, did though.

 

[Beer and Chips]

Who’s to say what is and isn’t ridiculous when it comes to what it takes to land that elusive offensive franchise player?

What is ridiculous however, is not having on staff the best scouts money can buy. Those scouts can definitely help you shorten a timeline. The Habs have been handing their money to fools. Luckily, Gorton doesn’t look to be one.

Just give Gorton a chance. Ownership will never agree to a 4 year rebuild plan based on their past conduct. Which is fine but then hire the best people.

Molson hired the guy who issued a public statement of rebuild and was applauded for it.

 

[417]

This ! Ask ex Oilers players that played there between 2010-2015, the loosing culture was horrible there and it’s probably a big reason why they never find a way to succeed even with all those high pick. You need to be careful, when Toews Kane arrived in Chicago, the Hawks did everything they could to surround those young players with good players and when they arrived, the goal was to win

People point to Toews & Kane...but forget the acquisition of Marian Hossa or Patrick Sharpe or drafting Duncan Keith in the 2nd round or acquiring Andrew Ladd.

Nah..none of that mattered.

The reason why the Chicago Blackawks had a mini-dynasty in the 2010s,, is solely attributable to Kane & Toews.

 

[417]

Speaking of losing culture, we made the playoff only twice in the last 6 years 1. While being 24th in the league 2 while being à .527 team.

In every single one of those years the habs tried to be compétitive, including this very season.

Maybe they went about being competitive the wrong way, well clearly.

But that doesn't mean it was the wrong approach.

Once more, with all due respect, I will never accept losing as an organizational mandate and I would never want to cheer for a team that establishes that as a standard.

The Habs suck this year, they're going to continue to suck and the result of that will be a pick somewhere in the top 5 or at worst 10.

But there's absolutely no way that I want this team to head into the season with the goal of being as bad as they can be, and making roster decisions in that vein, so they can have a CHANCE at drafting Bedard or Michkov.

Pass.

 

[417]

Sacrifice what? Im not following. You learn more in hard time than success.

You don't think losing has an adverse affect?

If you're entire organizational mandate is to lose, just so you can have a shot at drafting Wright this year, Bedard or Michkov the next...and you gut your roster to try to make that happen.

You don't think that all of that losing and talent/experience erosion, will have an effect on those players?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Maybe they went about being competitive the wrong way, well clearly.

But that doesn't mean it was the wrong approach.

Once more, with all due respect, I will never accept losing as an organizational mandate and I would never want to cheer for a team that establishes that as a standard.

The Habs suck this year, they're going to continue to suck and the result of that will be a pick somewhere in the top 5 or at worst 10.

But there's absolutely no way that I want this team to head into the season with the goal of being as bad as they can be, and making roster decisions in that vein, so they can have a CHANCE at drafting Bedard or Michkov.

Pass.

Team keep the Petry, Gallagher, Drouin, edmunson, Allen and co then.

Lets hope next GM can do miracle cause we need a few just to get back to being a bubble team regularly.

 

[417]

Literally no one is saying this.

This board is littered with posts about gutting the roster for Bedard/Michkov...stop that. I'm not imagining things.

I literally got into a 2 day debate with a poster the other day because the said that the organizational mandate or goal, should be to tank.

So yes, people are literally saying they...they're literally wanting this team to be bad, because they think that's the only way to get better.

But that's a misnomer.

If you want a proper rebuild, it has to be through the draft. And the only way to get players good enough to build around is by picking top 5 or better for several years. Tampa, Pittsburgh, Chicago all did it right by sucking enough to get game changing players over several years. The difference between them and Torino, Edmonton etc. is they already had a base of players to insulate and brought in veteran leaders to show the young kids how and what what they needed to win. But that takes time and two years isn’t enough to get those players and develop them into Croby, Malkin, Toews and Kane. Even if they got Bedard and Wright, they’d still take time to develop and become impact players in the league and that’s a best case scenario.

Yes, that's PART of it...but it's far from the only thing.

And it's not the only way to get players good enough to build around.

Take the Chicago Blackhawks, Los Angeles Kings, Pittsburgh Penguins and Tampa Bay Ligthning...I assure you, that they won their Cups not exclusively because of the players they acquired with their top 5 picks.

In fact, they actually won when those top 5 picks were properly surrounded and supported by sound decision making in other phases of player procurement.

 

[417]

Team keep the Petry, Gallagher, Drouin, edmunson, Allen and co then.

Where did you see me advocate keeping any of the players referenced above?

I mean, we can have a debate about this...but not if you're creating your own strawmen.

Miss me with that.

Lets hope next GM can do miracle cause we need a few just to get back to being a bubble team regularly.

I just hope the next GM realizes that to build a sustainable winner...you need to make winning a standard, not making losing the standard.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Saying that long rebuild never lead to good things is dishonest.

I think good models for rebuild are Tampa Bay and Chicago (Long rebuild that can take 4+ years).

The Lighting were dead last in the NHL in 2007-2008 before drafting Stamkos, 29th out of 30 in 2008-2009 before drafting Hedman, 25th out of 30 in 2009-2010 (nothing special happened for them in that draft), then ended up 8th in the league in year 4 (ended up lucky and felt on Kucherov and Palat in 2011). But they got a set back by year 5, ended up 21th on 30 in 2011-2012, they drafted their franchise goaltender in Vasilevskiy in the first round. 28th in year 2012-2013, which allowed them to draft Jonathan Drouin which got them eventually Sergachev.

Year 6 was the turn around, were they finished 8th in the league (but still lucked out on Point in the third round). They never looked back again. But it's only by year 10 that they actually started competing for the cup.

In took them 6 years to build there core, and the three first season they were bottom of the league.

Another long rebuilding success story is Chicago.

2003-2004 they ended up 29th out of 30th and ended up picking Cam Barker at 3 overall. 2005-2006 they finish 28th out of 30 and land Jonathan Toews as their futur captain at 3rd overall. Finishing 26th in 2006-2007, they land Patrick Kane at first overall. Next season, they finish 20th and still misses playoff. It's only by year 5 that they started becoming competitive, after Keith and Seabrook finally developped into solid defenseman. The rest is history (3 Stanley Cups).

The moral of the story is that you need to be patient if you are going to be rebuilding, and elite drafting and development is the key, as always since you need to have your franchise players to have any hope of becoming a team that is competitive for the cup, and not only a bubble team.

These are really poor examples because these teams never tore it down. Lecavalier, St.Louis all stayed on in Tampa. Richards wasn't even traded for futures. I don't remember the context surronding the Dan Boyle trade, but he had signed a long-term some 6 months before the trade. These guys were all vets who were kept around despite bad years.

Same with Chicago. They signed big money FAs in 2005 trying to compete (Khabibulin, Aucoin) and traded for Havlat in 2006, giving up futures in the process.

Neither of these teams did what posters here are advocating for. It says a lot that multiple posters are liking these posts without even knowing the context of what these teams were doing at the time.