Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[salbutera]

it would not surprise me if CC is included in a deal

not shocked at all

I could see Gorton offering up CC for Lafreniere, whether Drury bites is another matter

 

[sampollock]

I think CC is a very avg player in NHL, to keep him up is killing this kid

 

[danyhabsfan]

I’m not suggesting a Van rebuild - it’s more of a cap space move. Horvat is UFA after next season, Boeser is RFA after this season needing a big deal, only deal Pettersson to gain financial flexibility and of course of the 1OA has value to a Rutherford as a low cost ELC option for next 3-seasons allowing using the financial flexibility to address other areas of need.

Not sure I do it if I was Rutherford, but would look into it as Gorton.

77M for 17 players next year

where do you take the cap space for Pettersson?

 

[Habricot]

Seider was in the NHL in his D+3 season, Raymond in his D+2 season.

Romanov was in the NHL in his D+3 season, Ghule his still in junior in his D+2, Poehling had his first NHL game in his D+3 season, Caufield his first NHL game in his D+2 seasons.

The difference is the development of those prospect, yes, but mainly the quality of them too.

Look at our guys that were drafted top 10... Galchenyuk, Kk, Caufield. But of course pickingbthe rigth guy is also important. But i feel developing them properly is even more important. Let KK develop an extra year in Finland and we are having a completely different discussion today. Let Caufield in the AHL until you have no choice but calling him back this year and again we migth have a young guy that is not completely lost this year.

 

[salbutera]

Dvorak + Hoffman more than offsets cap hit of Pettersson

With Chiarot being moved, and potentially Petry & Toffoli there will be cap space freed up

 

[HabsCode]

I’m not suggesting a Van rebuild - it’s more of a cap space move. Horvat is UFA after next season, Boeser is RFA after this season needing a big deal, only deal Pettersson to gain financial flexibility and of course of the 1OA has value to a Rutherford as a low cost ELC option for next 3-seasons allowing using the financial flexibility to address other areas of need.

Not sure I do it if I was Rutherford, but would look into it as Gorton.

I highly doubt Vancouver makes any trade soon since they have won 8 of their last 10 games. They are starting to look for a playoff spot and their core is doing well since Boudreau is at the realm. They always add a solid young core, they were underperforming.

Maybe if they had kept being bad I could of see them trade one of their main core piece in the summer or before the draft, but I don't see them trading Petterson for future. Their window is now with Bo Horvat, Boeser, Garland and Miller being in their mid twenties. I think they will want to go for if they keep with theses guy. If they trade one of their core piece, it's one of the older guy since it would means they prefer to rebuild. And Petterson would definitly be part of this process.

 

[Habricot]

Seider was in the NHL in his D+3 season, Raymond in his D+2 season.

Romanov was in the NHL in his D+3 season, Ghule his still in junior in his D+2, Poehling had his first NHL game in his D+3 season, Caufield his first NHL game in his D+2 seasons.

The difference is the development of those prospect, yes, but mainly the quality of them too.

I would also say that Romanov and the type of player he is is just as ellite in his category as Seider is in his category of Dmen. They contribute in a different ways. So you are correct the players you select play a big role here and hopefully we draft our own Sneider soon.

 

[417]

The Red Wings rebuild doesn't fall in line with your original point. You want to be competitive as soon as next season.

That doesn't mean trade 1st round picks for immediate help. It just means I don't want to suck next year, of course, that might change...but right now, I see now reason why i'm going to throw next season away too.

Yzerman drafted Seider when he came in. Red Wings finished 31th(last) in the league in 2019-2020 and got Raymond. Finished 27th the season after and got Edvisson. That's 3 high pick in a row. And that's actually by year 3 and not year 2 that he became competitive (and this is yet to be determined). That's three "tank" (or whatever you want to call it) season to build his main core.

It's really only 2 under Yzerman...yes he was the GM who drafted Seider, but it's not like he was the GM that entire year.

He took over in May and he drafted Seider 2 months later.

So it's really just 2 picks, Raymond & Edvisson.

If we're looking at timelines...he missed the playoffs his first 2 years as GM and today, they're a team that would qualify for the playoffs if they started today.

Seems like a reasonable timeline to me.

Unless you think 2019,2020 and 2021 drafts setted us up for being futur cup contender long-term, I would say the Habs are barely starting their rebuild.

The Habs haven't had a high pick since Kotkaniemi and he left the team. The only piece the Habs have that could be considered elite is Suzuki and he is pacing this season for a 44 points season.

It's too early to tell about those drafts and yes, the Habs haven't had high picks since Kotkaniemi left...but that doesn't devalue what Caufield (15th) or Guhle (16th) could become.

As for Suzuki...he's pacing this season for 44pts, if that's what you think now...what are your thoughts on Suzuki going to be when this team has intentionally sucked for another 24 months and they've got him riding shotgun with Michael Pezzetta to ensure that happens?

This is the exact aspect I think you're glossing over. There's an impact to losing and intentionally icing lineups designed to suck.

 

[HabsCode]

Look at our guys that were drafted top 10... Galchenyuk, Kk, Caufield. But of course pickingbthe rigth guy is also important. But i feel developing them properly is even more important. Let KK develop an extra year in Finland and we are having a completely different discussion today. Let Caufield in the AHL until you have no choice but calling him back this year and again we migth have a young guy that is not completely lost this year.

Caufield is not a top 10 draft. A top 10 draft that year would of possibly be one of Hughes, Byram, Seider or Zegras.

But I get what you mean. The problem is that the Habs direction refuse to go throught the process of a long rebuild, like some poster here refuse to accept, which result in rushing players. They went for centers in KK and Galchenyuk because they needed center and wanted to turn the ship around fast because oh no, what would have happened if the Habs had been bad two seasons in a row. So short-sighted.

 

[417]

Caufield is not a top 10 draft. A top 10 draft that year would of possibly be one of Hughes, Byram, Seider or Zegras.

But I get what you mean. The problem is that the Habs direction refuse to go throught the process of a long rebuild, like some poster here refuse to accept, which result in rushing players. They went for centers in KK and Galchenyuk because they needed center and wanted to turn the ship around fast because oh know, what would have happened if the Habs had been bad two seasons in a row. So short-sighted.

I think you got this wrong...

Rebuilds, or whatever you want to call them, don't *have to be long* if they're done properly.

No team wants to remain in a perpetual state of rebuild.

 

[HabsCode]

That doesn't mean trade 1st round picks for immediate help. It just means I don't want to suck next year, of course, that might change...but right now, I see now reason why i'm going to throw next season away too.


It's really only 2 under Yzerman...yes he was the GM who drafted Seider, but it's not like he was the GM that entire year.

He took over in May and he drafted Seider 2 months later.

So it's really just 2 picks, Raymond & Edvisson.

If we're looking at timelines...he missed the playoffs his first 2 years as GM and today, they're a team that would qualify for the playoffs if they started today.

Seems like a reasonable timeline to me.

It's too early to tell about those drafts and yes, the Habs haven't had high picks since Kotkaniemi left...but that doesn't devalue what Caufield (15th) or Guhle (16th) could become.

As for Suzuki...he's pacing this season for 44pts, if that's what you think now...what are your thoughts on Suzuki going to be when this team has intentionally sucked for another 24 months and they've got him riding shotgun with Michael Pezzetta to ensure that happens?

Ok, let's ignore a already elite and potentially franchise defenseman in the rebuilding process of the Red Wings, like you did for the Lighting. Because of course, the rebuild only started after Yzerman came in. Let's forget too that they finished 27th in 2018 and drafted 6th overall has a result (Zadina).

To quote him when he joined the Lighting :
"Steve Yzerman told me when we started, before the first season, that this would be a long process -- there are a lot of things to do, depth to build, all kinds of things, so I wasn't in it for the short fix," Boucher said. "I was in for the long run and understood the need for patience. It's easy to say, but when adversity happens, you have to expect it."
Bolts' Boucher fighting for answers in trying times - NHL.com - News

As for Suzuki, elite player produce in spite of a bad teams, not just because they are surended properly. That's why Raymond is so dominant in his first season, while Zadina, on the same team, is still struggling to make a name for himself. Suzuki has been our best player this season, but he has is part of blame to take in the season the Habs are having.

Seider and Raymond completely changed this Red Wings, why couldn't guys like Savoie, Kemell, Wright, Bedard, Michkov and co. couldn't? Raymond gave Larkin back some life. You think Suzuki wouldn't be eager to see a a dominant prospect join the club for a change? Remember how he looked so joyful when Caufield came in last year and showed what he was capable of.

It's pretty simple, it took Red Wings multiple high pick before they could it the jackpot and they wouldn't be there if they tried to be competitive as soon as they drafted Zadina.

 

[HabsCode]

I think you got this wrong...

Rebuilds, or whatever you want to call them, don't *have to be long* if they're done properly.

No team wants to remain in a perpetual state of rebuild.

I just underlined a Yzerman quote from former head coach Boucher in my previous post to show you that even he was aware the process was going to be long...

 

[417]

Ok, let's ignore a already elite and potentially franchise defenseman in the rebuilding process of the Red Wings, like you did for the Lighting. Because of course, the rebuild only started after Yzerman came in. Let's forget too that they finished 27th in 2018 and drafted 6th overall has a result (Zadina).

Who said to ignore him? Lol

What I said was that Moritz Seider at 6th overall is the result of the previous regime's failure for that season. Steve Yzerman was named GM 2 months before they drafted him. He wasn't the artisan of the team that tanked all the way down to 6th worse lol

What is so hard to understand in all of that? lol

To quote him when he joined the Lighting :
"Steve Yzerman told me when we started, before the first season, that this would be a long process -- there are a lot of things to do, depth to build, all kinds of things, so I wasn't in it for the short fix," Boucher said. "I was in for the long run and understood the need for patience. It's easy to say, but when adversity happens, you have to expect it."
Bolts' Boucher fighting for answers in trying times - NHL.com - News

Cool story...except his first year as GM, he made the following moves;

- Re-signed 35yr old Martin St-Louis
- Signed 33yr old Pavel Kubina for a 2nd run
- Traded for washed up Simon Gagné

And that team made it to the ECF.

Clearly, this wasn't a man obsessed with sucking when he took over.

As for Suzuki, elite player produce in spite of a bad teams, not just because they are surended properly. That's why Raymond is so dominant in his first season, while Zadina, on the same team, is still struggling to make a name for himself. Suzuki has been our best player this season, but he has is part of blame to take in the season the Habs are having.

Seider and Raymond completely changed this Red Wings, why couldn't guys like Savoie, Kemell, Wright, Bedard, Michkov and co. coudln't? You think Suzuki wouldn't be eager to see a a dominant prospect join the club for a change? Remember how he looked so joyful when Caufield came in last year and showed what he was capable of.

Firstly, I don't think Nick Suzuki is an elite talent...so that's really irrelevant in this discussion.

But I do know that Nick Suzuk is the same player when he was insulated by Danault & Kotkaniemi as he is when he's insulated by...Christian Dvorak and...Jake Evans.

I'll let you figure out the difference in both situations.

But once again, i'll remind you, you keep pushing for this team to suck and have multiple years drafting early...but you're completely ignoring or glossing over the journey to get there and what it does to the current players on the team. Which is odd, because you're seeing it now.

It's pretty simple, it took Red Wings a multitude of high pick before they could it the jackpot and they wouldn't be there if they tried to be competitive as soon as they drafted Zadina.

Nah actually... they LITERALLY drafted Seider & Raymond the 2 years following drafting Zadina lol.

 

[Habs Icing]

The day after the draft a lot of scouts were saying he was a good gamble.

I wonder if those scouts were not the ones who passed up on him in the first round. He was picked 26th after all.

 

[Habs Icing]

Can you imagine the backlash Pettersson would get for putting up Kotkaniemi level production at a bigger, long term cap hit lol

Yeah when has he put up KK numbers for a whole season?

 

[Habs Icing]

If Habs land 1OA I would dangle and see if Van bites on potentially trading Petersson

This years pick needs to net a potential high ceiling player and the the little I know of this draft cuvée…. It doesn’t have such a talent IMO

Rutherford would have to ask himself is there a player in the 2022 draft who will be better than Pettersson.

My answer would be no but I'm not a draft expert.

 

[HabsCode]

Who said to ignore him? Lol

What I said was that Moritz Seider at 6th overall is the result of the previous regime's failure for that season. Steve Yzerman was named GM 2 months before they drafted him. He wasn't the artisan of the team that tanked all the way down to 6th worse lol

What is so hard to understand in all of that? lol


Cool story...except his first year as GM, he made the following moves;

- Re-signed 35yr old Martin St-Louis
- Signed 33yr old Pavel Kubina for a 2nd run
- Traded for washed up Simon Gagné

And that team made it to the ECF.

Clearly, this wasn't a man obsessed with sucking when he took over.


Firstly, I don't think Nick Suzuki is an elite talent...so that's really irrelevant in this discussion.

But I do know that Nick Suzuk is the same player when he was insulated by Danault & Kotkaniemi as he is when he's insulated by...Christian Dvorak and...Jake Evans.

I'll let you figure out the difference in both situations.

But once again, i'll remind you, you keep pushing for this team to suck and have multiple years drafting early...but you're completely ignoring or glossing over the journey to get there and what it does to the current players on the team. Which is odd, because you're seeing it now.


Nah actually... they LITERALLY drafted Seider & Raymond the 2 years following drafting Zadina lol.

He signed Martin St. Louis, a HHOF, the face of the franchise, what is your point? Do the Habs have any player of this caliber, beside Price on this team who is a big question mark right now?

Do the Habs have a Hedman type of player and Stamkos(rocket winner) type of player in his prospect pool?

To they have a PPG monster like Vincent Lecavalier?

Did they won the cup in the last decade?

The Tampa Bay lighting Yzerman inherited wasn't in the same situation as the Habs are currently.

You speak as if your point is obvious to see, but each of the rebuilding process of Yzerman team included some tough year resulting in the drafting of elite talent.

As for Detroit, they had 1 9th overall pick and 4 top 6 pick, and this happened by them finishing out of a playoff spot for 5 season in a row. That's a lot of high pick in the span of 5 years for a NHL team, and Detroit got unlucky a lot in the lottery. As a comparaison, the Habs had 2 top 9 pick in the last 9 year as a result of being a bubble team.

Rasmussen, Zadina, Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson. While all of them are still young, only 2 players out of those 5 picks have made a difference in their turn around. That's how picking high works. Around 50% of you picks are going to be successful enough to change the faith of the franchise, but they will. And they will be an important part of the process of aquiring elite player to build your team around with trades and UFA.

But let's get back to the Wings, which are still inconsistent as a young team in year 3 of the Yzerman plan. I don't know who you are refering too when you say obsessed with sucking, but it's not me because my point is just that the Habs need to build a elite core first, which is usually done through high draft pick, and to do that, you need to accept that the process might be longer that 1 off season.

 

[417]

He signed Martin St. Louis, a HHOF, the face of the franchise, what is your point? Do the Habs have any player of this caliber, beside Price on this team who is a big question mark right now?

Do the Habs have a Hedman type of player and Stamkos(rocket winner) type of player in his prospect pool?

To they have a PPG monster like Vincent Lecavalier?

Did they won the cup in the last decade?

The Tampa Bay lighting Yzerman inherited wasn't in the same situation as the Habs are currently.

You speak as if your point is obvious to see, but each of the rebuilding process of Yzerman team included some tough year resulting in the drafting of elite talent.

At this point, it's just flat out refusal of you to recognize how he operated goes way, way beyond just him "inheriting" 2 franchise/elite players (Stamkos/Hedman). You're flat out refusing to acknowledge the standards that Vinik & Yzerman set had nothing to do with wanting to be bad.

At this point, we're just turning around in circles.

You're entitled to focus on the trees while missing the forest if you want.

As for Detroit, they had 1 9th pick and 4 top 6 pick, and this happened by them finishing out of a playoff spot for 5 season in a row. That's a lot of high pick in the span of 5 yeras for a NHL team, and Detroit got unlucky a lot in the lottery. As a comparaison, the Habs had 2 in the last 9 year as a result of being a bubble team.

Rasmussen, Zadina, Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson. While all of them are still young, only 2 players out of those 5 picks have made a difference in their turn around. That's how picking high works. Around 50% of you picks are going to be successful enough to change the faith of the franchise, but they will. And they will be an important part of the process of aquiring elite player to build your team around with trades and UFA.

But let's get back to the Wings, which are still inconsistent as a young team in year 3 of the Yzerman plan. I don't know who you are refering too when you say obsessed with sucking, but it's not me because my point is just that the Habs need to build a elite core first, which is usually done through high draft pick, and to do that, you need to accept that the process might be longer that 1 off season.

Happy New Year my man!

 

[HabsCode]

At this point, it's just flat out refusal of you to recognize how he operated goes way, way beyond just him "inheriting" 2 franchise/elite players (Stamkos/Hedman). You're flat out refusing to acknowledge the standards that Vinik & Yzerman set had nothing to do with wanting to be bad.

At this point, we're just turning around in circles.

You're entitled to focus on the trees while missing the forest if you want.


Happy New Year my man!

Lol this debate is useless. You keep deforming what I'm saying.

You will keep saying until oblivion that I ONLY attribute Tampa Bay success to Hedman and Stamkos, while I keep pointing out the fact that Yzerman accepted that this could be a long process when he was hired, and that there was a stage where those team were at the bottom of the league for a couple of season but still could turn it around later, and a big part of it was the result of the high picks.

Ultimately that's what most people who are pro-longer rebuild want here, build a long-term contender with a core of dominant player, which they haven't seen in a long time, and which aren't present in the prospect pool has we currently see. No one is obsessed with sucking, most of them are motivated by Stanley Cup win and long term success and saw what worked for most succesful franchise who went throught a rebuild process

I guess happy new year too man.

 

[417]

Lol this debate is useless. You keep deforming what I'm saying.

If that's the case, it's certainly not intentional.

You will keep saying until oblivion that I ONLY attribute Tampa Bay success to Hedman and Stamkos, while I keep pointing out the fact that Yzerman accepted that this could be a long process when he was hired, and that there was a stage where those team were at the bottom of the league for a couple of season but still could turn it around later, and a big part of it was the result of the high picks.

Well of course, that's what any manager would say publicly in order to manage the expectation...but that's not how he operated.

What he said, and what he did were 2 different things. Of course I fully recognize that starting out with 2 foundational pieces like Hedman and Stamkos can help accelerate things. I've acknowledged that from jump.

Ultimately that's what most people who are pro-longer rebuild want here, build a long-term contender with a core of dominant player, which they haven't seen in a long time, and which aren't present in the prospect pool has we currently see. No one is obsessed with sucking, most of them are motivated by Stanley Cup win and long term success and saw what worked for most succesful franchise who went throught a rebuild process

Bolded is HIGHLY debatable.

I guess happy new year too man.

You guess? Jeez lol

 

[HabsCode]

At this point, it's just flat out refusal of you to recognize how he operated goes way, way beyond just him "inheriting" 2 franchise/elite players (Stamkos/Hedman). You're flat out refusing to acknowledge the standards that Vinik & Yzerman set had nothing to do with wanting to be bad.

At this point, we're just turning around in circles.

You're entitled to focus on the trees while missing the forest if you want.


Happy New Year my man!

I won't fuel this debate anymore if you're getting sick of it as I could understand too, but I still find it interesting so I'm gonna drop this to end:

From the Detroit News when Yzerman was hired:

"I'm very disappointed we didn't win a Stanley Cup in Tampa," Yzerman said. "But the only reason I look back is to learn. I'm pleased people are excited, but these are difficult jobs. You get surprised positively and negatively. These players are young boys when they start. We're going to do things the right way, the way I learned in this organization. I'm going to ask for some patience, and I know there's a limit to that. I'm not going to make a big splash just so we are a little better next year. We're competing with 30 other teams. It's going to take time."

I hope Gorton feels the same.

 

[CHfan1]

Of course I fully recognize that starting out with 2 foundational pieces like Hedman and Stamkos can help accelerate things. I've acknowledged that from jump.

Not only do I think a franchise needs those foundational pieces to accelerate a rebuild I think their essential in building a perennial Cup contender. A team needs an elite centre, an elite defenceman, and maybe a top end winger or another top centre. I don’t think the Habs have that in their system. Unfortunately I don’t think Suzuki is that player and I’m not sure about Romanov and Guhle being that type of player.

The question is how do they get those players. Typically they come through the draft, usually with higher picks (but have come in trades before too). When the Habs get those core foundational pieces they can start to accelerate their rebuild, imo. Hopefully they get one this draft and maybe another next draft (I honestly don’t see this team turning it around next season).

 

[calder candidate]

I don't know, that's for management to figure out but I can guarantee you what won't though.

Deciding they're not going to compete for next year, before the current season has even expired. The only thing that does is make losing acceptable and once you do that, as we can already clearly see...it's very difficult to turn off.


85% of the team you're currently seeing wouldn't be on the NHL roster under normal circumstances...obviously.


OMG, are you going to stop asking me this?

It's not for me to lay out a plan, i'm not going to waste all of our times proposing things I have absolutely no control over or even know the likelihood of it succeeding. There's already enough fantasy GM'ing around here, i'll let you parse through that. All i've spoken about is this concept of making losing an organizational standard for the next 18 months for the chance, I repeat, a "chance"...not a guaranteed, but a "chance" at drafting a player who MIGHT turn our fortunes around, this is not something I want for this organization....that doesn't mean I don't want them to accumulate draft picks and build a sustainable winner. I just don't think you build a sustainable winner by sustainably losing.

I am confident in Gorton though and I'm pretty confident this "scorched-earth/eat-lard-for-Bedard" plan you all think is the magic key to the Cup, is not going to be his starting point.

this is the GM in NYR that sent a letter to season ticket holder say they were going to rebuild.
You keep forgetting that this has not been a playoff team for the last 4 season making the COVID playoff doesn’t change the fact that we aren’t competitive… No one scorching the earth you sell off over 2 season look for the best return which isn’t likely immediate help…

 

[BozoTheClown]

I won't fuel this debate anymore if you're getting sick of it as I could understand too, but I still find it interesting so I'm gonna drop this to end:

From the Detroit News when Yzerman was hired:

"I'm very disappointed we didn't win a Stanley Cup in Tampa," Yzerman said. "But the only reason I look back is to learn. I'm pleased people are excited, but these are difficult jobs. You get surprised positively and negatively. These players are young boys when they start. We're going to do things the right way, the way I learned in this organization. I'm going to ask for some patience, and I know there's a limit to that. I'm not going to make a big splash just so we are a little better next year. We're competing with 30 other teams. It's going to take time."

I hope Gorton feels the same.

When your entire organization as been solely built around an all star goaltender for the last 15+ years and you have not much too show for as far as talent is concerned, the rebuild, if this is the direction taken, will take at least 3 years of being at the bottom of the standing.

That’s just the reality that can’t be avoided, unless people are find with being a middle of the pack team for another 15 years.

 

[lemairefan]

If Habs land 1OA I would dangle and see if Van bites on potentially trading Petersson

This years pick needs to net a potential high ceiling player and the the little I know of this draft cuvée…. It doesn’t have such a talent IMO

I live in Vancouver, so I hear lots about the Canucks

Rutherford MIGHT consider 1OA + Caufield for Petterson but Petterson would have to regress to a struggling level for another significant period first