Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[HabsForHire]

People use the word generational way too loosely, Gretzky, lemieux, crosby/ovi, mcdavid are generational. Bedard is franchise/elite theres a difference.

 

[417]

People use the word generational way too loosely, Gretzky, lemieux, crosby/ovi, mcdavid are generational. Bedard is franchise/elite theres a difference.

Yeah, I haven't seen a ton from Bedard but he seems to be more in the Patrick Kane/Nathan MacKinnon tier, which IMO, is just below the generational tier of players you mentioned.

But with roughly 18 months left before he's drafted, a lot can change either way.

 

[calder candidate]

I'm well aware of what the parameters of tanking are...i'm just not super comfortable throwing in a towel on a season that hasn't even arrived for a player we MIGHT be able to draft at the conclusion of next season.

I mean, what happens if there's another "Bedard" the year after, I mean, you did it 2 years ago...why not a 3rd year in a row?

What does all that losing do to the current crop of players that you're hoping are the leaders for the next group of players who will be joining the team? What does all that losing do to an organization?

It seems like this is glossed over, like there's no impact on that and I think that's a very dangerous way of thinking.


I wasn't suggesting that Danault was a nobody, just that when we acquired him...it's not like anyone was thinking, Oh snap, we just got a future Selke-worthy center.

The point I was making bringing up Danault is that it's an example of how you can improve your team through various means, including identifying undervalued players on other organizations. These moves matter as much as trying to worm your way into a lottery.


I mean, yes and no...different teams, have different ambitions so sacrifices are made for a greater good. It happens.

But I don't disagree with the quoted post here. Yes, you win some and you lose some, just like the draft. But it seems like a lot of people think the only pathway to success, is to suck. That as a philosophy doesn't sit right with me.


I don't know a ton about Wright, Bedard and Michkov...I read a lot of "generational talent" tag being thrown around, which is something I think is used all too freely, I don't think these players are in the Crosby/Ovechkin/'McDavid tier, which are players who can singlehandedly change the fortunes of their franchises. So I have a hard time wrapping my head around sacrificing the next 18 months for a player we MIGHT, in a utopian reality, be able to draft.

If it happens by circumstance, that the team as is, just sucks again next year...then OK, that's where the things are aligning, then I 100% get it.

But next season hasn't even started. This isn't a team completely devoid of talent, there's over 50M sitting on the sidelines for various reasons. I don't know if the team i've watched this year, is truly the team it is. So i'm not sure today, December 30, 2021....that i'm ready to throw the next 18 months out of the window to maybe draft Connor Bedard in July 2023.

I'm kinda a tired of this... This team wasn't doing anywhere before covid magically allow us to make the playoff... This team isn't going anywhere right now even if you bring back that 50$M sitting on the side line (8 of which is retired) and has really little in term of talent incoming, we aren't scrifacing anything... half of the player on the team won't be there in 3 years... This team is a lame duck it finish 18th, 24th, 14th, 28th, 7th, 22nd in the league in the past 6 years. Yes left off 14-15 where we finish 2nd because this isn't the same team and half the league was tanking for Mcdavid...

What does all that losing do to a team nothing as long as you hit on the picks...

You somehow think placing your self in a place to hit the lottery is much riskier than hoping you end up getting the best player at 9th or 12th + being able to pull of multiple great trade... Since in both cases you would do the same trade and have the same draft list, if anything the shorter minded trade would likely yeild less return... So basically everything else being equal drafting early in a draft with Bedard and Michkov would be significantly increase our chance of improving the team.

 

[417]

I'm kinda a tired of this... This team wasn't doing anywhere before covid magically allow us to make the playoff... This team isn't going anywhere right now even if you bring back that 50$M sitting on the side line (8 of which is retired) and has really little in term of talent incoming, we aren't scrifacing anything... half of the player on the team won't be there in 3 years... This team is a lame duck it finish 18th, 24th, 14th, 28th, 7th, 22nd in the league in the past 6 years. Yes left off 14-15 where we finish 2nd because this isn't the same team and half the league was tanking for Mcdavid...

It's not the same person running the show, again, I think you or anyone who thinks Gorton is going to do a scorched-earth policy is naive. I think he's going to make the obvious moves of trading guys who won't be back next year, but I wouldn't expect him to make the big sweeping changes a lot of people want done.

Of course, I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

You somehow think placing your self in a place to hit the lottery is much riskier than hoping you end up getting the best player at 9th or 12th or being + being able to pull of multiple great trade... Since in both cases you would do the same trade and have the same draft list, if anything the shorter minded trade would likely yeild less return... So basically everything else being equal drafting early in a draft with Bedard and Michkov would be significantly increase our chance of improving the team...

No, that's just YOUR understanding of what I wrote.

THIS year, it makes total sense to try to position yourself to draft as highest as possible...the season is lost already and IF we're in the same position this time next year, than it will make sense to do the same to potentially draft Bedard or Michkov.

But i'm not throwing away next season before i've even had an offseason to evaluate and potentially look at moves to make this team better. The GM has a responsibility to the players currently on this team, you can't just sacrifice a year of players careers just to TRY to draft the next best thing.

Yes, in an ideal world if everything works out perfectly (which we know it rarely does), going back to back years drafting Wright + Bedard or Michkov would increase the chances of improving this team significantly.

But so would other avenues.

 

[NotProkofievian]

It's not the same person running the show, again, I think you or anyone who thinks Gorton is going to do a scorched-earth policy is naive. I think he's going to make the obvious moves of trading guys who won't be back next year, but I wouldn't expect him to make the big sweeping changes a lot of people want done.

Of course, I could be wrong but I just don't see it.


No, that's just YOUR understanding of what I wrote.

THIS year, it makes total sense to try to position yourself to draft as highest as possible...the season is lost already and IF we're in the same position this time next year, than it will make sense to do the same to potentially draft Bedard or Michkov.

But i'm not throwing away next season before i've even had an offseason to evaluate and potentially look at moves to make this team better. The GM has a responsibility to the players currently on this team, you can't just sacrifice a year of players careers just to TRY to draft the next best thing.

Yes, in an ideal world if everything works out perfectly (which we know it rarely does), going back to back years drafting Wright + Bedard or Michkov would increase the chances of improving this team significantly.

But so would other avenues.

With respect, we've followed this route for a while and it sucks a lot. It sucks for the love of sucking. We need time to accumulate high value assets, then we need to assemble a core out of those assets, then we can think about ''evaluating in the off season to try and improve the team.'' There's times to win, and times to lose. We are in the latter.

These assets don't have to be Wright and Michkov, btw. There are a lot of great names available.

 

[417]

With respect, we've followed this route for a while and it sucks a lot. It sucks for the love of sucking.

What route though? Are you referring to anything Bergevin has done? Because i'm not suggesting repeating what he did for 10 years, which was essentially constantly remodel the same broken model.

That's not what i'm advocating for.

We need time to accumulate high value assets, then we need to assemble a core out of those assets, then we can think about ''evaluating in the off season to try and improve the team.'' There's times to win, and times to lose. We are in the latter.

These assets don't have to be Wright and Michkov, btw. There are a lot of great names available.

I don't think I said anything different here...we're basically in agreement.

The Habs at the end of this season should have accumulated at least 7-8 top 90 picks + maybe some B-level, near-NHL-ready prospects. So i'm in 100% agreement to accumulate assets and assembling a core of those assets and THEN evaluating.

I just don't want to focus ALL of our efforts in one avenue (sucking for players who aren't eligible to be drafted for another 18 months).

 

[NotProkofievian]

What route though? Are you referring to anything Bergevin has done? Because i'm not suggesting repeating what he did for 10 years, which was essentially constantly remodel the same broken model.

That's not what i'm advocating for.


I don't think I said anything different here...we're basically in agreement.

The Habs at the end of this season should have accumulated at least 7-8 top 90 picks + maybe some B-level, near-NHL-ready prospects. So i'm in 100% agreement to accumulate assets and assembling a core of those assets and THEN evaluating.

I just don't want to focus ALL of our efforts in one avenue (sucking for players who aren't eligible to be drafted for another 18 months).

I think we need to be bad for a couple years. We should trade some vets for picks to both ensure that happens, as well as hopefully getting some good players with the picks.

 

[417]

I think we need to be bad for a couple years. We should trade some vets for picks to both ensure that happens, as well as hopefully getting some good players with the picks.

See i'm of the opinion that those 2 things don't have to co-exist.

I think a lot of the reason why we're so bad is our over-reliance on vets personally, but that's another discussion.

I get what you and many others are trying to convey. I just have difficulty with "wanting to be bad", especially because there's no guarantee that you get what you want coming out on the other side of that.

Furthermore, when you essentially, make losing acceptable with your players...it becomes a habit and habits are hard to break, even IF you end up drafting that player you designed your whole plan for (see Oilers with McDavid or Buffalo with Eichel). You can't just turn that mentality off/on like a switch.

 

[NotProkofievian]

See i'm of the opinion that those 2 things don't have to co-exist.

I think a lot of the reason why we're so bad is our over-reliance on vets personally, but that's another discussion.

I get what you and many others are trying to convey. I just have difficulty with "wanting to be bad", especially because there's no guarantee that you get what you want coming out on the other side of that.

Furthermore, when you essentially, make losing acceptable with your players...it becomes a habit and habits are hard to break, even IF you end up drafting that player you designed your whole plan for (see Oilers with McDavid or Buffalo with Eichel). You can't just turn that mentality off/on like a switch.

No team building strategy has any guarantee. But it's a good bet. Sometimes you come up empty handed when you make good bets, but they're still good bets. And as for the ''teams with superstars can still be bad'' point, I've been having this argument long enough to see those goalposts shift. I used to hear ''you don't want to be Tampa Bay'' as recently as 2019. I used to hear ''you don't want to be Washington.'' And always ''look how that worked out for Florida.''

Man, I don't want to be us right now lol.

 

[417]

No team building strategy has any guarantee. But it's a good bet. Sometimes you come up empty handed when you make good bets, but they're still good bets. And as for the ''teams with superstars can still be bad'' point, I've been having this argument long enough to see those goalposts shift. I used to hear ''you don't want to be Tampa Bay'' as recently as 2019. I used to hear ''you don't want to be Washington.'' And always ''look how that worked out for Florida."

I get this...but for me, there's a CLEAR difference in how Tampa Bay built it's current team vs how Edmonton or Buffalo or Florida has gone about it.

To just pare everything down to just "hey let's suck for X number of years and everything will turn out just fine" is really the homogenization of a process that isn't homogenous at all.

There's a reason why Tampa is who they are today and the Edmonton Oilers are who they are today. You can't just write that up to some things work out while others don't.

Tampa Bay is successful today because they didn't pin their hopes on lottery tickets exclusively, they didn't just hope Stamkos/Hedman would solve everything. They planned roster moves before those 2 ever arrived and continued to make moves after they did to build up.

Wanting to suck or bottom out has never been their modus operandi, at least not under Mr. Vinik.

They're champions because they have a champion attitude/philosophy that permeates throughout every level of their organization...the same can't be said for those other teams.

Man, I don't want to be us right now lol.

I felt this lol

 

[ECWHSWI]

THIS year, it makes total sense to try to position yourself to draft as highest as possible...the season is lost already and IF we're in the same position this time next year, than it will make sense to do the same to potentially draft Bedard or Michkov.

But i'm not throwing away next season before i've even had an offseason to evaluate and potentially look at moves to make this team better. The GM has a responsibility to the players currently on this team, you can't just sacrifice a year of players careers just to TRY to draft the next best thing.

Yes, in an ideal world if everything works out perfectly (which we know it rarely does), going back to back years drafting Wright + Bedard or Michkov would increase the chances of improving this team significantly.

But so would other avenues.

If we're in the same position next year it means Gorton and his GM have failed to bring a replacement to Price and Weber and failed at improving both offence and defense.

 

[417]

If we're in the same position next year it means Gorton and his GM have failed to bring a replacement to Price and Weber and failed at improving both offence and defense.

Well I don't think Price is going anywhere, so unless he's injured again, which is definitely not out of the realm of possibility...he'll be in nets in tandem with Allen or Primeau.

As for Weber, hard to replace some of the intangibles he brings...on the ice though, that might be more achievable.

Either way, if this team is as bad as it showed this year, they'll be picking in the top 5 again and when we get to that point, worming your way into the most advantageous position makes complete sense. No argument from me there.

But we really don't know what Gorton/NewGM intentions are , they might be able to accomplish more with this roster than anyone here believes or certainly, more than what the previous GM was able to do.

 

[montreal]

If Habs land 1OA I would dangle and see if Van bites on potentially trading Petersson

This years pick needs to net a potential high ceiling player and the the little I know of this draft cuvée…. It doesn’t have such a talent IMO

sounds like the nucks are still trying to win although I can't say I have followed them.

depending on how things go but if say we got 1st and the Yotes end up at 3rd, it would be interesting to see if Gorton would try and trade down as the yotes are loaded with 3 1st and 5 2nd round picks so far.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Well I don't think Price is going anywhere, so unless he's injured again, which is definitely not out of the realm of possibility...he'll be in nets in tandem with Allen or Primeau.

As for Weber, hard to replace some of the intangibles he brings...on the ice though, that might be more achievable.

Either way, if this team is as bad as it showed this year, they'll be picking in the top 5 again and when we get to that point, worming your way into the most advantageous position makes complete sense. No argument from me there.

But we really don't know what Gorton/NewGM intentions are , they might be able to accomplish more with this roster than anyone here believes or certainly, more than what the previous GM was able to do.

So if we get Price back and a replacement for Weber, we're back to where we were the last few seasons.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I get this...but for me, there's a CLEAR difference in how Tampa Bay built it's current team vs how Edmonton or Buffalo or Florida has gone about it.

To just pare everything down to just "hey let's suck for X number of years and everything will turn out just fine" is really the homogenization of a process that isn't homogenous at all.

There's a reason why Tampa is who they are today and the Edmonton Oilers are who they are today. You can't just write that up to some things work out while others don't.

Tampa Bay is successful today because they didn't pin their hopes on lottery tickets exclusively, they didn't just hope Stamkos/Hedman would solve everything. They planned roster moves before those 2 ever arrived and continued to make moves after they did to build up.

Wanting to suck or bottom out has never been their modus operandi, at least not under Mr. Vinik.

They're champions because they have a champion attitude/philosophy that permeates throughout every level of their organization...the same can't be said for those other teams.

For sure, it's not as simple as ''be bad, then hocus pocus, you're good all of the sudden.'' Although, I think the biggest difference between Edmonton and Tampa Bay is the fact that Chiarelli was the GM of Edmonton lol. You go around trading high picks for Griffin Reinhardt and Hall for Larsson and it's tough to build a winner.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

So if we get Price back and a replacement for Weber, we're back to where we were the last few seasons.

Yep outside the playoff by a large amount.

Team needs a new identity pure and simple

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

People use the word generational way too loosely, Gretzky, lemieux, crosby/ovi, mcdavid are generational. Bedard is franchise/elite theres a difference.

Bedard could be generational. At 15 years old, Bedard was 2 ppg in the whl. At the same age, Mcdavid was 1 ppg in the ohl.

Not the best reg season start this year for bedard, but he will likely turn it around big time.

 

[Captain Mountain]

For sure, it's not as simple as ''be bad, then hocus pocus, you're good all of the sudden.'' Although, I think the biggest difference between Edmonton and Tampa Bay is the fact that Chiarelli was the GM of Edmonton lol. You go around trading high picks for Griffin Reinhardt and Hall for Larsson and it's tough to build a winner.

Partially. In the broader sense, I think Edmonton's push to be better faster was what set them back. The Lightning were pretty bad for a long stretch of time, but they didn't rush to be competitive and did a good job of building internally and being careful with what contracts they handed out. Edmonton was aggressive and tried to speed things up (especially through Free Agency) and it bit them in the ass many times. Like people will call Edmonton a rebuilding team, but from 2009 to 2019, the only had multiple 1st or 2nds in 2010, 2011 and 2018. They even had years where they moved 2nds. That's not on Chiarelli, MacTavish did it as well. Holland has shown more restraint, but he's had some moves that are too hasty as well.

 

[HabsForHire]

Bedard could be generational. At 15 years old, Bedard was 2 ppg in the whl. At the same age, Mcdavid was 1 ppg in the ohl.

Not the best reg season start this year for bedard, but he will likely turn it around big time.

We will see if he is still mcdavid level at the nhl level, no doubt he is elite but i don't think he will be mcdavid good

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

We will see if he is still mcdavid level at the nhl level, no doubt he is elite but i don't think he will be mcdavid good

Mcdavid of players happen once in every 15-20 years.
Bedard could be a Mackinnon or Matthews which is insanely good player.

 

[HabsForHire]

Mcdavid of players happen once in every 15-20 years.
Bedard could be a Mackinnon or Matthews which is insanely good player.

I agree, I don't see bedard in the mcdavid tier. But I'd gladly take a mackinnon elite level player.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I agree, I don't see bedard in the mcdavid tier. But I'd gladly take a mackinnon elite level player.

I won't say no to a Matthews who scored 40 on his rookie season

 

[Frank JT]

Juulsen had plenty of red flags on account of several concussion events and that's before those freak back to back injuries that took him out and may have decided his career. He was a bad gamble. This is when a smart GM will trade the pick, rather than settle on a player with longstanding medical impediments. Multiple major concussions suffered by a player vying for a career in a contact sport? Pass!

The day after the draft a lot of scouts were saying he was a good gamble.

 

[vokiel]

Let's get Senyshyn from the Bs for peanuts!

Reason: Because...

 

[RealityHurts]

sounds like the nucks are still trying to win although I can't say I have followed them.

depending on how things go but if say we got 1st and the Yotes end up at 3rd, it would be interesting to see if Gorton would try and trade down as the yotes are loaded with 3 1st and 5 2nd round picks so far.

I think they promised their fanbase their retool/reset/rebuild was done and it was time to expect more

This is normal given all the talent and signings they've acquired.

Now, they got rid of a bad coach and changed GM. They want to win.