HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #88: 2024 Off-Season Thread

[Habs10Habs]

Shit or get off the pot bud.

"They suck! We'll finish bottom five with that top six! Bunch a band-aids!" Okay... then what the f*** do you think they'll do? "Well, ah er ah gee..." I mean...

lol it's fun debating with you.

Even without any changes. I believe our time in the top 6 has come to an end. Personally I think if Dach and Newhook were healthy for the majority of the season. We were looking at a top 10 finish. Which is pretty much where I see us this year. If we can add another top 6 player, with some luck. I can see us being a borderline playoff team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

lol it's fun debating with you.

Even without any changes. I believe our time in the top 6 has come to an end. Personally I think if Dach and Newhook were healthy for the majority of the season. We were looking at a top 10 finish. Which is pretty much where I see us this year. If we can add another top 6 player, with some luck. I can see us being a borderline playoff team.

I think you'll get your wish. Hugo will add a depth player. It might not be Laine but he's going to do something.

I'm also intersted in seeing what he does with all that cap space.

 

[Habs10Habs]

I think you'll get your wish. Hugo will add a depth player. It might not be Laine but he's going to do something.

I'm also intersted in seeing what he does with all that cap space.

I believe so, but we're all just guessing at this point. Personally I'm not 100% sold on Laine. The only reason I keep bringing him us is we have the cap space. Plus the cost to get him would probably be cheaper than the other players who are rumoured to be available. Plus I secretly want a Laine jersey lol

 

[themilosh]

I think you'll get your wish. Hugo will add a depth player. It might not be Laine but he's going to do something.

I'm also intersted in seeing what he does with all that cap space.

Probably more than the 9.1M capspace forward MB kept for a playoff run with Price.

 

[themilosh]

I'd probably do that in a second , but I want McGroarty too

Id prefer mcgroarty to laine..

But laine for sure vs nobody depth pitlick type

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Id prefer mcgroarty to laine..

But laine for sure vs nobody depth pitlick type

McG is fine but I wouldn’t want to give up Barron.

 

[Habby4Life]

Thank you!

I think they'll do better but even if they do this, why would you think that's awful?

Under your scenario here, the second line will produce a cummulative total of 130 points. The average 2nd liner will land you somewhere around 50 points in an 82 point season. Let's give those guys an average of 44 points... (it's a little lower but let's go with it) That's hardly a terrible line.

I also think you're underrating those guys. Newhook had 35 in 55 last year despite a huge injury. Dach was pacing for close to 60 a while back and there was every indication he was going to have a monster year last season. Roy at 35 is pretty light but let's go with that. I'd say it's 140 minimum. That's right in line with an average second liner and I see a lot more upside than that.

So if we're not that far apart, why is this a "horrible" line? How is Newhook awful if he's going to put up 45 points? Dach is a strong two way player. Newhook isn't a liabilty. Roy's a rookie. At worst it'd be a slightly below average line even under what you have here.

First, the points, just threw them out there, didn’t give any deep thought to it, who knows, there are so many variables.

Here is what I think they have top 6 right now:
CC - a gifted goal scorer, great shot (improving due to surgery) lots of upside.
NS - does everything well if not excellent and plays big.
Slaf - a beast with all kinds of tools.
Dach - size, skill, and a lot of upside but he is a massive question mark.
Demidov - if he pans out (im sure he will) he will be a star.

3rd Liners
Newhook - he’s got skill, plays well both ends, can contribute but not big 5-11, not physical.
Roy - honestly, I can’t say, sample size too small. Skilled but he isn’t physical nor does he play big like Nick. He has to work on playing in his own end, he needs time to for us to really now what he is.

Then they have a whole bunch of scrap parts that I’m not interested talking about.

Newhook isnt awful, Roy isn’t as well but to me they are third line guys. One has a lot to prove and the other I just don’t see it (Newhook) Nothing wrong with third line guys.

My ideal top 6 has size, is highly skilled, can play both ends of the ice, etc, does something very well. It’s not about the points, it’s about the attributes of the player, his complete game. A top 6 to me has to do something really well (excellent), I see it in everyone of the 5 guys I listed in top 6. They need to add another.

For example, a guy who isn’t high end skill, and isn’t big is Sam Bennett, big but plays like a beast, that one exceptional attribute. To me neither Newhook or Roy have those physical attributes nor are they superskilled and that’s why I don’t consider them to be a second line guy. CC is small but he has it, skill, he brings a different dimension to the top 6, as does every other guy I listed.

To be brutally honest, I don’t care if that line could produce 140 points. I don’t see them as being a second line on a serious playoff contending team. Just don’t see that line being tough to play against in playoffs when the games matter.

I do see them on the third line, which they could really take advantage of the match ups and move up the lineup when needed. Who knows, maybe I’m wrong, time will tell.

In 2025, when Demidov comes, and if they add a top 6, they can put together a very formidable top 9.

I don’t know if this articulates my position but it is my opinion.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

First, the points, just threw them out there, didn’t give any deep thought to it, who knows, there are so many variables.

Here is what I think they have top 6 right now:
CC - a gifted goal scorer, great shot (improving due to surgery) lots of upside.
NS - does everything well if not excellent and plays big.
Slaf - a beast with all kinds of tools.
Dach - size, skill, and a lot of upside but he is a massive question mark.
Demidov - if he pans out (im sure he will) he will be a star.

3rd Liners
Newhook - he’s got skill, plays well both ends, can contribute but not big 5-11, not physical.
Roy - honestly, I can’t say, sample size too small. Skilled but he isn’t physical nor does he play big like Nick. He has to work on playing in his own end, he needs time to for us to really now what he is.

Then they have a whole bunch of scrap parts that I’m not interested talking about.

Newhook isnt awful, Roy isn’t as well but to me they are third line guys. One has a lot to prove and the other I just don’t see it (Newhook) Nothing wrong with third line guys.

My ideal top 6 has size, is highly skilled, can play both ends of the ice, etc, does something very well. It’s not about the points, it’s about the attributes of the player, his complete game. A top 6 to me has to do something really well (excellent), don’t see it with them. I see it in everyone of the 5 guys I listed in top 6. They need to add another.

For example, a guy who isn’t high end skill, and isn’t big is Sam Bennett, big but plays like a beast, that one exceptional attribute. To me neither Newhook or Roy have those physical attributes nor are they superskilled and that’s why I don’t consider them to be a second line guy. CC is small but he has it, skill, he brings a different dimension to the top 6, as does every other guy I listed.

To be brutally honest, I don’t care if that line could produce 140 points. I don’t see them as being a second line on a serious playoff contending team. Just don’t.

I do see them on the third line, which they could really take advantage of the match ups and move up the lineup when needed. Who knows.

In 2025, when Demidov comes, and if they add a top 6, they can put together a very formidable top 9.

I don’t know if this articulates my position but it is my opinion.

There is a world of difference between “they suck” and “not good enough on a contending team.”

You’ll get zero argument on the second point and lots of argument on the first.

The pushback comes when you argue that our second line is awful and we’ll be bottom five with it. No we won’t and even if we used your numbers here, it’s really not that bad.

A contender? Of course not. It’s too young for that and nowhere near its prime. Moreover, I think you’ll get your wish as some of these guys will move to the third over time. Dach will probably remain a second liner. Newhook will likely move down in the future. Roy? Who knows?

 

[Habby4Life]

There is a world of difference between “they suck” and “not good enough on a contending team.”

You’ll get zero argument on the second point and lots of argument on the first.

The pushback comes when you argue that our second line is awful and we’ll be bottom five with it. No we won’t and even if we used your numbers here, it’s really not that bad.

A contender? Of course not. It’s too young for that and nowhere near its prime. Moreover, I think you’ll get your wish as some of these guys will move to the third over time. Dach will probably remain a second liner. Newhook will likely move down in the future. Roy? Who knows?

IMO,I think it’s a very weak second line, contender or not. It’s all a matter of opinion, who knows, time will tell.

I stand by my statement, the team as it is now, is lottery team, around 5. You say they won’t, I think they will, so be it.

That’s why they play the games.

I like the direction but this is still a bad team with a lot of holes. Its coming but Hugo still has a lot of work to do.

 

[RationalExpectations]

if we get two more season ending injuries I'm done. Something is wrong on the team medical side that has never been fixed. We need to finish with the core healthy



we aren't contending with these bottom 3-4 lines, nor the suspect blueline and goaltending, not for years 'if' the prospects pan out. We have some pieces to build around on the blueline, most certainly, and goaltending I'm guessing we wait for Fowler.

Seriously our 3&4th lines are going to hold us back

I disagree on that : Armia Anderson Gallagher Evans Dvorak are all NHLers. They are overpaid but they have their place in a bottom 6 (and I am far from an Anderson fan). I think until now MSL has failed to provide structure adapted to bottom 6 players with limited hockey IQ (or very low in case of Anderson). It is great to give freedom to creative players, but bottom 6 needs more structure in my opinion.
Habs really need a top 6 player and Dach to stay healthy though

 

[ReHabs]

I think until now MSL has failed to provide structure adapted to bottom 6 players with limited hockey IQ (or very low in case of Anderson). It is great to give freedom to creative players, but bottom 6 needs more structure in my opinion.

This is an interesting thought and I think I haven't seen it until today. I wonder how MSL and the team pro scouts feel about this. It might be the thing that helps us turn it around because our bottom6 is really ineffective and it could very well be that they need a tighter and more simple forecheck and transition to help them hit their marks.

However, the coaches might see it another way entirely... they might want to raise their IQ/reading of the players and might prefer the flexibility and versatility that comes with that. I'd like more insight into MSL's tactics from people who know or who have access.

Habs really need a top 6 player and Dach to stay healthy though

Erm... can you predict how many points the current players will get before you say controversial things like that? Thanks in advance!

 

[RationalExpectations]

This is an interesting thought and I think I haven't seen it until today. I wonder how MSL and the team pro scouts feel about this. It might be the thing that helps us turn it around because our bottom6 is really ineffective and it could very well be that they need a tighter and more simple forecheck and transition to help them hit their marks.

However, the coaches might see it another way entirely... they might want to raise their IQ/reading of the players and might prefer the flexibility and versatility that comes with that. I'd like more insight into MSL's tactics from people who know or who have access.


Erm... can you predict how many points the current players will get before you say controversial things like that? Thanks in advance!

I think you won t make a race horse out of a donkey

I have forgotten my cristal ball at home but end of April next year you ll have my prediction for 24-25

 

[ReHabs]

I think you won t make a race horse out of a donkey

Josh Anderson being a donkey is all well and good but he looks like he's drowning out there on the ice some times. Surely he can be more effective if he is in a simplified system. The other problem is he doesn't even forecheck/bodycheck that often.

I have forgotten my cristal ball at home but end of April next year you ll have my prediction for 24-25

But then how would Lafleurs Guy confirm your status a Serious Poster if you won't pull a point prediction out of your ass?

 

[nhlfan9191]

I agree with you, and maybe I didn’t articulate it as well as you did but unproven is exactly what I said. I also think the second line needs physicality and size. Neither Roy or Newhook bring that. Moreover, I said many times a player is more than just points, it’s his complete game.

Newhook being a third liner, that’s just my opinion.

“There second line is all band-aids, not a legit top 6. Newhook is a third liner, and Roy has played 20+ games & is unproven, and no one knows if Dach can stay healthy. They have no real 2nd line.”

Anyway, I’m convinced KH will add a top 6 forward this summer which will help solidify the problem.

I think if they were going to make a move for a top 6 forward, they would’ve done something a month ago. Sure, a trade for someone like Laine could facilitate at any time but I’m not expecting it. I think they’d like to see what the top 6 looks like with Slafkovsky starting the season with confidence and Dach healthy.

 

[RationalExpectations]

Josh Anderson being a donkey is all well and good but he looks like he's drowning out there on the ice some times. Surely he can be more effective if he is in a simplified system. The other problem is he doesn't even forecheck/bodycheck that often.

But then how would Lafleurs Guy confirm your status a Serious Poster if you won't pull a point prediction out of your ass?

I am not a serious poster so I guess that solves the issue

 

[Weltschmerz]

I disagree on that : Armia Anderson Gallagher Evans Dvorak are all NHLers. They are overpaid but they have their place in a bottom 6 (and I am far from an Anderson fan). I think until now MSL has failed to provide structure adapted to bottom 6 players with limited hockey IQ (or very low in case of Anderson). It is great to give freedom to creative players, but bottom 6 needs more structure in my opinion.
Habs really need a top 6 player and Dach to stay healthy though

Don't really see how you implement structure for only selected players.
Either you do it as a 5 man unit and for everyone or it won't help.

 

[RationalExpectations]

Don't really see how you implement structure for only selected players.
Either you do it as a 5 man unit and for everyone or it won't help.

All your lines don t play the same way because all players don t have the same skills. Armia Perry Staal can t play like Crosby Malkin Guentzel.

 

[ReHabs]

Don't really see how you implement structure for only selected players.
Either you do it as a 5 man unit and for everyone or it won't help.

If lines are more stable, you give them different tactical instructions. MSL likes to roll lines and we don't have a close-to-finished team yet so there's plenty of blending that happens throughout the season and sometimes even in games. Injuries don't help either.

15 years ago we had defined lines: top6 + defensive line 3 + checking/jamming line 4. It's ebbed a bit there's too little talent across the league to see a top9 of scoring lines, so you can imagine it coming back. We barely have a top6 so we can definitely play with distinct lines.

With Slaf-Suzuki-Caufield 'fixed', it gives some meta-structure to the team, MSL can absolutely give his checking lines different tactics than his scoring lines.

 

[Benstheman]

?????

How is Dach not a two way player? Come on.

No we don't.

And I think they're going to prove it.

Dach, Newhook and Roy, though the Roy needs a bit more experience, are 3 two-way forwards. If Newhook and Roy can keep offensive production steady, they will be both great middle 6 players.

Dach is a top 6 center if healthy.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

IMO,I think it’s a very weak second line, contender or not. It’s all a matter of opinion, who knows, time will tell.

I stand by my statement, the team as it is now, is lottery team, around 5. You say they won’t, I think they will, so be it.

That’s why they play the games.

I like the direction but this is still a bad team with a lot of holes. It’s coming but Hugo still has a lot of work to do.

I think it’s pretty clear that the second line isnt as bad as you thought it was. Again, even if they produce at your expectations (which I think are pretty low) then they won’t be that bad at all.

Us finishing bottom five? It could happen but a lot would have to go wrong. If it were to happen it would mean we ran into injuries or the goalending fell off a cliff.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think if they were going to make a move for a top 6 forward, they would’ve done something a month ago. Sure, a trade for someone like Laine could facilitate at any time but I’m not expecting it. I think they’d like to see what the top 6 looks like with Slafkovsky starting the season with confidence and Dach healthy.

I think he’ll do something to shore up the depth. I don’t think we’re going to see any big moves this year though.

 

[Habby4Life]

I think it’s pretty clear that the second line isnt as bad as you thought it was. Again, even if they produce at your expectations (which I think are pretty low) then they won’t be that bad at all.

Us finishing bottom five? It could happen but a lot would have to go wrong. If it were to happen it would mean we ran into injuries or the goalending fell off a cliff.

I stand by my statements regarding the second line so we will have to leave it all agree to disagree.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I stand by my statements regarding the second line so we will have to leave it all agree to disagree.

This is why I pressed you on the points issue. It’s in line with what a second line should produce. Certainly not terrible. Your prediction wasn't far off of mine.

Depth? That’s another story. We don’t have a great deal of that right now. And injuries could easily derail us. On that, I think you’re correct. But that’s a different point.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dach, Newhook and Roy, though the Roy needs a bit more experience, are 3 two-way forwards. If Newhook and Roy can keep offensive production steady, they will be both great middle 6 players.

Dach is a top 6 center if healthy.

Dach is great defensively. Newhook’s fine. Roy’s a rookie so he may struggle a little but it’s very not a liability as a line. Should be fine.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Josh Anderson being a donkey is all well and good but he looks like he's drowning out there on the ice some times. Surely he can be more effective if he is in a simplified system. The other problem is he doesn't even forecheck/bodycheck that often.

But then how would Lafleurs Guy confirm your status a Serious Poster if you won't pull a point prediction out of your ass?

If you are going to make ridiculous observations then at least attempt to justify them.
IMO Anderson does not hit much any more because he gets hurt too easily.