HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #87: 2024 Season Finale

[le_sean]

Having Wyatt Johnston/Logan Stankoven/Thomas Harley/Jake Oettinger collectively make 6.5 million makes up for it no? Yes if Habs get some star players on ELCs it would help the cap situation.

Great so you’re proving his point. Acquiring and paying for Necas, while adding a 5th overall pick, Roy, Hutson, Reinbacher, Mailloux on ELCs. What’s the issue exactly?

 

[The Great Weal]

Sorry I don't get the connection here?

You mentioned Necas had a 70 point season, I'm pointing out that Domi did too. The connection is that the one 70 point season isn't indicative that the player will be doing that again in the future. It could very well be an anomaly.

I don't look at individual player's salary in a vacuum, it's the entire salary picture of a team...as I mentioned, the Dallas Stars are able to be a top team in the NHL despite having 2 terrible salaries value wise because they have other amazing offsetting contracts.

They are also loaded with superstars, it makes a world of a difference. There've been tons of mediocre teams in NHL history that don't have enough superstar talent and are in no man's land because they are capped out with some good but not elite players.

Using an extreme example doesn't strengthen your argument. Who would give Michael Pezzetta 14M? How is this remotely comparable to anything I wrote lol

It completely invalidates your point as you're overlooking how they have the two best forwards in the league that are completely carrying the team. Who do you think would do that on the Habs? Of course, if we have generational talents, we can afford to have some awful contracts. We don't even have the superstar talents yet.

 

[Justin11]

Would be nice to have Necas, however not sure the Habs have assets that the Canes would want, not that Habs don't have assets. Canes will probably be looking for an established forward from Habs core group which probably won't work.

Necas will probably be dealt to Anaheim for Zegras or something similar. Problem for a problem.

 

[The Great Weal]

Great so you’re proving his point.

Not even a little bit

 

[417]

Having Wyatt Johnston/Logan Stankoven/Thomas Harley/Jake Oettinger collectively make 6.5 million makes up for it no? Yes if Habs get some star players on ELCs it would help the cap situation.

Exactly...that's the point, you have salaries that offset others.

So why worry about a specific one. That's not what determines success/failure.

I've never claimed that, don't know where you're getting that from.

Ok you never explicitly stated that, but you seem overly concerned with paying a young 25 year old, former 1st rounder market value.

This isn't some over the hill free agent on the market here. His value in a contract is well established.

If your argument is that you're not a fan of the player, OK, that's a different story.

But it seems odd to suggest that Necas at 7.5M is fine but at 8.25M is crippling.

Overpaying too many guys by too much will hinder your chances of success.

But i'm not advocating to overpay many guys...i'm advocating to pay a player market value for his services because I think he fits what the Habs need.

So why not just give any player whatever they want? Those successful teams have superstars to make up for that which is a major factor. Yes if we had a proven elite top 5 dman in the NHL and a top 10 forward in the league and can afford a Necas as a final piece to the top 6, sure give him the 8 million.

The Habs highest paid player is 76th in the league in terms of cap hit and that number is just going to get lower and lower as years go by.

Why are you acting like the Habs are in the poor house? lol

 

[Captain Mountain]

I agree he’s a winger. I’d be acquiring him as a winger.

The need is offence. The need is transition. The need is speed. The need is size. He fills every single one of those needs.

I'd argue that those aren't the only needs. And I wouldn't expect him to fill a size need unless its a superficial view of size as opposed to a practical view.

I'd feel better about Necas' fit than a guy like Dubois, but I don't think this argument really captures how he was used on Carolina or what a realistic expection of the player is.

Necas is great in transition and is very fast. He's generally strong offensively, but also gets overrated. He's legitimately bad defensively and would be on a team that already lacks two way play among forwards. And his size shouldn't be a factor because he's not heavy and while he engages, its not a defining part of the game.

He makes a ton of sense as a trade target, but he's not a some perfect fit or close to it.

 

[le_sean]

Not even a little bit

Absolutely you are. Dallas might win the Cup and they have exactly one player that got more than 65 points. They are built with depth and contributors on ELCs and have a couple of way overpaid players. They have two good defencemen. They had to acquire one at the deadline to make it three.

Montreal has a lot in the pipeline ready to make the jump or good enough that they can be traded for good pieces, like Necas who would significantly help the team.

 

[le_sean]

I'd argue that those aren't the only needs. And I wouldn't expect him to fill a size need unless its a superficial view of size as opposed to a practical view.

I'd feel better about Necas' fit than a guy like Dubois, but I don't think this argument really captures how he was used on Carolina or what a realistic expection of the player is.

Necas is great in transition and is very fast. He's generally strong offensively, but also gets overrated. He's legitimately bad defensively and would be on a team that already lacks two way play among forwards. And his size shouldn't be a factor because he's not heavy and while he engages, its not a defining part of the game.

He makes a ton of sense as a trade target, but he's not a some perfect fit or close to it.

Yeah he was on a team that looks to grind out wins and wants offence to come from the back end. I think he’d thrive in a place that doesn’t stifle offensive creativity like Rod the Bod does.

 

[417]

You mentioned Necas had a 70 point season, I'm pointing out that Domi did too. The connection is that the one 70 point season isn't indicative that the player will be doing that again in the future. It could very well be an anomaly.

Oh...well yeah, there's a certain amount of risk with any player your signing.

If Necas had more than one 70pt season, than we'd be talking about way more money.

But we're not.

We're talking about paying him a salary that wouldn't even put him in the top 50 salaries in the NHL on a yearly average.

Why is it that other teams can survive, be viable financially and even successful with MULTIPLE players being paid amongst the top 20 players in the NHL.

But the Habs can't afford to take a risk on a guy on who today, even at 8M, would be around 70th in the league in terms of cap hit?

Are the Montreal Canadiens operating under a different salary cap number than other teams?

They are also loaded with superstars, it makes a world of a difference. There've been tons of mediocre teams in NHL history that don't have enough superstar talent and are in no man's land because they are capped out with some good but not elite players.

I promise you if we were to examine said teams, we'd find a lot more wrong with their teams than just the salary they're paying players.

It completely invalidates your point as you're overlooking how they have the two best forwards in the league that are completely carrying the team. Who do you think would do that on the Habs? Of course, if we have generational talents, we can afford to have some awful contracts. We don't even have the superstar talents yet.

Using an outlandish example of paying Michael Pezzetta a 14M/yr salary doesn't invalidate anything I wrote, it invalidates everything you wrote though, all due respect.

Use realistic examples...not one's that would never happen.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Please don't go for Necas unless it's like a 1st a d Barron/Harris and he isn't over 7, which he will be.

 

[Saundies]

Absolutely you are. Dallas might win the Cup and they have exactly one player that got more than 65 points. They are built with depth and contributors on ELCs and have a couple of way overpaid players. They have two good defencemen. They had to acquire one at the deadline to make it three.

Montreal has a lot in the pipeline ready to make the jump or good enough that they can be traded for good pieces, like Necas who would significantly help the team.

That's the thing, we have ELCs, especially on the D side, that can help keep our cap lower at the moment. We have Dach/Newhook/Slaf (right now) on lower AAV contracts, and some guys with a bit higher money expiring or burning years off of there's (Gallagher/Anderson). We're not paying 10 million for a goalie anymore and our tandem is one of the younger/cheapest in the show.

Necas locks in our first two lines and I feel like a lot of things fall into place after that. We can either load up one good PP unit or have two decent ones (finally). Guys like Andy/Gallgher/Dvo/Whoever don't need to feel the pressure of bringing offense all the time. Injuries happen, obviously, but we have Roy, this year's pick (hopefully a forward), Beck, Tuch, whoever to hop up and fill in.

To me, it makes a ton of sense. But I'm also interested in Zegras and a lot of people aren't, so. Any top 6 F works for me, but Necas would be a great add.

 

[The Great Weal]

Ok you never explicitly stated that, but you seem overly concerned with paying a young 25 year old, former 1st rounder market value.

Lol alright man, I'm not a fan of handsomely paying someone who's got serious flaws and likely won't be a top end player for us. It's funny that you use the Stars/Oilers as comparisons as if we're even remotely close to having that much top end talent to offset higher paid contracts, but overlook a team like LA who've got over 16 million committed to PLD and Fiala which is most definitely hurting them as they are stuck in no man's land for now. Would you also want to sign up to be in that situation?

If your argument is that you're not a fan of the player, OK, that's a different story.

No it definitely isn't a different story. Being concerned with a player's serious flaws will definitely affect how much you'd be comfortable giving him.

But it seems odd to suggest that Necas at 7.5M is fine but at 8.25M is crippling.

Again, I'm saying a Nurse contract is crippling as it has been for the Oilers who have the two best players in the league but haven't done anything after how many years? Overpaying one second liner by 750k is not crippling no. It does however set a precedent for future contracts with younger players and ultimately it could add up.

Why are you acting like the Habs are in the poor house? lol

This was the exact same thing said about PLD last year. There's most definitely risk in giving that much money and term to a flawed player who's most likely a second liner.

 

[417]

Not even a little bit

Well I did say that you can offset "overpaid" salaries by having other player's on value salaries, and used the Stars as an example.

And then you doubled down using that very example.

So yeah...you kind of did prove my point lol.

 

[le_sean]

That's the thing, we have ELCs, especially on the D side, that can help keep our cap lower at the moment. We have Dach/Newhook/Slaf (right now) on lower AAV contracts, and some guys with a bit higher money expiring or burning years off of there's (Gallagher/Anderson). We're not paying 10 million for a goalie anymore and our tandem is one of the younger/cheapest in the show.

Necas locks in our first two lines and I feel like a lot of things fall into place after that. We can either load up one good PP unit or have two decent ones (finally). Guys like Andy/Gallgher/Dvo/Whoever don't need to feel the pressure of bringing offense all the time. Injuries happen, obviously, but we have Roy, this year's pick (hopefully a forward), Beck, Tuch, whoever to hop up and fill in.

To me, it makes a ton of sense. But I'm also interested in Zegras and a lot of people aren't, so. Any top 6 F works for me, but Necas would be a great add.

That’s how I see it too. But those saying they don’t want Necas give no other names as possibilities to help fix the offence. 70 point 25 year old forwards aren’t typically available.

You have him, Ehlers, maybe Zegras, Buchnevich. So a guy that is a proven playoff wart, maybe a guy that is more lacrosse goals than actual hockey, and a 30 year old.

 

[The Great Weal]

Oh...well yeah, there's a certain amount of risk with any player your signing.

If Necas had more than one 70pt season, than we'd be talking about way more money.

But we're not.

How much is "way more"? 10 million? Because if you think an extra 70 point season warrants him to be among the top 12 forwards in the league then oof.

We're talking about paying him a salary that wouldn't even put him in the top 50 salaries in the NHL on a yearly average.

Don't see why this even matters. Second line players aren't exactly hard to acquire and most of them don't make 8 million or more.

Why is it that other teams can survive, be viable financially and even successful with MULTIPLE players being paid amongst the top 20 players in the NHL.

For the millionth time, they've got superstar players and we don't have any. Why only compare it to those teams? Why not a team like the Flames/Kings? You don't think their awful contracts are hurting them?

Using an outlandish example of paying Michael Pezzetta a 14M/yr salary doesn't invalidate anything I wrote, it invalidates everything you wrote though, all due respect.

Nah it doesn't, it proves how you're disregarding context like how the Oilers have the two best players in the world. If we get that, then sure overpaying some players which was my point. Not sure why this would invalidate EVERYTHING I wrote.

Use realistic examples...not one's that would never happen.

This goes for you too. Use teams that don't have star talents like the Habs, not conference finalists who've got star forwards/dmen/goalies. Why aren't you talking about the teams that don't have the star talents? Why aren't you talking about the teams like Calgary or LA?

Well I did say that you can offset "overpaid" salaries by having other player's on value salaries, and used the Stars as an example.

And I said by having star talents on ELC will offset that yes. We don't have that. So no, I most definitely didn't prove your point because it's very very flawed and not comparable whatsoever. Again, people have said the same thing about PLD last year. Habs need talent so let's pay a flawed player who won't be a top liner whatever. You should ask LA how that's working out for them.

 

[sampollock]

We see about Necas, see what KH can arrange.
KH may have to over pay some, I mean look what he gave for Newhook

 

[417]

Lol alright man, I'm not a fan of handsomely paying someone who's got serious flaws and likely won't be a top end player for us. It's funny that you use the Stars/Oilers as comparisons as if we're even remotely close to having that much top end talent to offset higher paid contracts, but overlook a team like LA who've got over 16 million committed to PLD and Fiala which is most definitely hurting them as they are stuck in no man's land for now. Would you also want to sign up to be in that situation?

Neither am I...that's why I said i'd have no problem paying Necas 8M/yr.

That's not paying someone "handsomely", as I stated, AF OF TODAY, that's a salary cap hit that places him 70th amongst players in the NHL.

Let's look at other players in the same salary range

- Jack Hughes
- Logan Couture
- Ryan Johnasen
- Josh Norris
- JT Miller
- Tomas Hertl

I'm not sure why you're acting like 8M is some insane number to pay a 2nd line player...with the cap rising, this is going to be the cost.

It's like some folks got stuck in what the cap was 5 years ago and can never get out of it.

In 2 years the cap is going to be at 92M...8M is going to be bargain rate for a 2nd line player.

As for your LA Kings point...i'm not sure why you want me to make your argument for you, it's your take, make it.

No it definitely isn't a different story. Being concerned with a player's serious flaws will definitely affect how much you'd be comfortable giving him.

If Martin Necas was a flawless player, we'd be talking about a much higher salary.

So again, i'm not sure what it is your arguing. That 8M/yr is reserved for flawless players?

You realize we're halfway through the year 2024 right?

Again, I'm saying a Nurse contract is crippling as it has been for the Oilers who have the two best players in the league but haven't done anything after how many years? Overpaying one second liner by 750k is not crippling no. It does however set a precedent for future contracts with younger players and ultimately it could add up.

Darnell Nurse contract kicked in last year, they lost in the 2nd round, this year, they're 2 games away from being in the Cup finals, despite Darnelll Nurse' debilitating contract.

You can keep repeating the words that it's crippling, but this isn't being manifested in real life.

I understand what you're saying and nowhere have I advocated to just pay any player anything he wants...but we're talking about an 8M yearly salary on a team whose highest paid player makes 7.8M.

The Nurse/Oilers example is not a good example to use.

The only way Darnell Nurse contract is "crippling" for the OIlers is if they try to move him...his contract has ZERO impact on how they perform on the ice. They can very well win a Stanley Cup this year with him and his terrible contract on the roster.

This was the exact same thing said about PLD last year. There's most definitely risk in giving that much money and term to a flawed player who's most likely a second liner.

I don't know what others said about PLD last year, I didn't really have a take on him signing that contract with the Kings.

I know I wouldn't have given him that deal but I certainly don't think that contract is the sole reason they got bounced in the first round and to suggest so is disingenuous.

They also lost in the 1st round the year prior and he wasn't on the roster.....so...

 

[sampollock]

these guys are clowns. what station are they on??

CC to Utah
So I could have say Cayden Lindstrom with the 5th overall pick and Sam Dickinson or another good defender with the 6th overall pick, I would say yes. » - Martin Lemay

“Yes, I would too, and you know how much I love Caufield! » - Mathias Brunet

 

[Saundies]

That’s how I see it too. But those saying they don’t want Necas give no other names as possibilities to help fix the offence. 70 point 25 year old forwards aren’t typically available.

You have him, Ehlers, maybe Zegras, Buchnevich. So a guy that is a proven playoff wart, maybe a guy that is more lacrosse goals than actual hockey, and a 30 year old.

People view guys as "this is who they are" way too much, especially when they're young.

Dach? "Career high 9 goals, looks like a bust, traded Romanov for him yuck"
Newhook?: "Why would we want him if Colorado doesn't want him? Nothing special, hasn't panned out" etc.

If guys are available, there's a reason they are available on that team right now. Would we have traded the version of Lehkonen Colorado has now for Barron? Hell no. But he went there, got an opportunity, and unlocked his offensive game. Zegras has scored some Michigan goals, yeah, but he's never played 82 games at the Bell under MSL and he's never played in the playoffs. Who knows what he can do at that level?

Different coaches, different teams, different systems etc can get more out of guys. I'd love to add Ehlers, or Necas, and yes, even Zegras. I feel like they'd be valued on our team differently than their own.

 

[Justin11]

these guys are clowns. what station are they on??

CC to Utah
So I could have say Cayden Lindstrom with the 5th overall pick and Sam Dickinson or another good defender with the 6th overall pick, I would say yes. » - Martin Lemay

“Yes, I would too, and you know how much I love Caufield! » - Mathias Brunet

BPM Sports - French sports station

 

[sampollock]

no to preying mantas?

“Here's what we know so far: Forwards Michael Amadio, William Carrier and Anthony Mantha will not be returning to Las Vegas. All three are aware and plan to test the free agent market on July 1.

Defenseman Alec Martinez no longer seems to have a place on the blue line; he will be 37 at the end of July and he is said to be weighing his options.” -David Pagnotta

BPM Sports - French sports station

are they good or just full of hot air?? I don't speak french to hear them

 

[Justin11]

are they good or just full of hot air?? I don't speak french to hear them

They are entertaining - You can't take their proposals seriously.

 

[le_sean]

People view guys as "this is who they are" way too much, especially when they're young.

Dach? "Career high 9 goals, looks like a bust, traded Romanov for him yuck"
Newhook?: "Why would we want him if Colorado doesn't want him? Nothing special, hasn't panned out" etc.

If guys are available, there's a reason they are available on that team right now. Would we have traded the version of Lehkonen Colorado has now for Barron? Hell no. But he went there, got an opportunity, and unlocked his offensive game. Zegras has scored some Michigan goals, yeah, but he's never played 82 games at the Bell under MSL and he's never played in the playoffs. Who knows what he can do at that level?

Different coaches, different teams, different systems etc can get more out of guys. I'd love to add Ehlers, or Necas, and yes, even Zegras. I feel like they'd be valued on our team differently than their own.

Sure but what I’m saying is they all have warts. They are players who would definitely help the Habs, but no one is perfect. So what’s the solution? Twiddling our thumbs and hope we draft the perfect player with the Colorado 2nd rounder this year? If Kent just sits on his hands and does nothing, we will keep improving at the speed of an aged tortoise.

So I don’t understand the people completely against adding and paying Necas. I guess they just want us to sit back and hope Filip Mesar finally figures it out.

 

[417]

How much is "way more"? 10 million? Because if you think an extra 70 point season warrants him to be among the top 12 forwards in the league then oof.

I don't determine the market value of players.

Jack Eichel has one 80pt season and 1 78pt season and makes 10M a year.

Jonathan Huberdeau makes 10.5M a year and he's not even a career PPG player.

So I never talked about Necas being a top 12 forward in the league, but 8M would certainly be the floor if he had more than one 70pt season and not the ceiling like it is now.

Don't see why this even matters. Second line players aren't exactly hard to acquire and most of them don't make 8 million or more.

You don't see where the market is going do you? You do understand that under the current system, salaries are meant to rise and NOT stay static right?

For the millionth time, they've got superstar players and we don't have any. Why only compare it to those teams? Why not a team like the Flames/Kings? You don't think their awful contracts are hurting them?

There's a lot more than just bad contracts hurting them. Well moreso the Flames...the Kings finished in the same exact place they did the year prior when they DIDN'T have PL Dubois' contract lol

Nah it doesn't, it proves how you're disregarding context like how the Oilers have the two best players in the world. If we get that, then sure overpaying some players which was my point. Not sure why this would invalidate EVERYTHING I wrote.

The Pezzetta analogy was a weird one...certainly you can find a better way to make an argument.

This goes for you too. Use teams that don't have star talents like the Habs, not conference finalists who've got star forwards/dmen/goalies. Why aren't you talking about the teams that don't have the star talents? Why aren't you talking about the teams like Calgary or LA?

But I DID use real examples lol just because I didn't use the one's you wanted me too doesn't invalidate what I said. What I said is referenced right before your eyes in the Stanley Cup Playoffs as we speak.

What you referenced wouldn't even exist in a book of fiction.

And I said by having star talents on ELC will offset that yes. We don't have that. So no, I most definitely didn't prove your point because it's very very flawed and not comparable whatsoever. Again, people have said the same thing about PLD last year. Habs need talent so let's pay a flawed player who won't be a top liner whatever. You should ask LA how that's working out for them.

And you wouldn't have said that about Wyatt Johnston at this point last year either.

 

[Whalers Fan]

We see about Necas, see what KH can arrange.
KH may have to over pay some, I mean look what he gave for Newhook

Newhook was not an overpayment.