HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #86: 2023-2024 Season

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417

Sheeeeeeeeeeeit!!!!!
Feb 20, 2003
52,492
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Ottawa
Look at the last cup winners since the salary cap era, and MOST of them have won by tanking or getting top end picks. Others have done it, like Vegas, St.Louis and Boston....but that's not thet majority.
That's if you only choose to focus on their "tanking" and their top end picks....but I promise you if you look at teams like the Bolts or Caps, they've done a bunch of other moves they did which had nothing to do with tanking or acquiring picks, which were crucial to their success.

Do the Bolts win Cups are a ton of games without Kucherov or Point or Cernak or the Caps without Carlson, Wilson, Oshie, Eller?

The generational picks like Crosby/Ovechkin, have skewed the way we look at how to build a winner, but it's really "not seeing the forest for the trees" kind of thing.

There's no set sequential order of when or how things need to happen, as I said, it's really just a series of very fortunate events coming together at the right time.

I just think it's not a good idea to take the Oilers or Sabres or Sens approach to building almost exclusively through tanking because it ignores all the other variables that actually transition you from rebuilding, to actually, building.

That's actually the "dirty middle" that you want to avoid, where you're stuck in a perpetual rebuild, while not actually building anything at all.

Pierre Dorion literally spent the last 5 years telling everyone "Hey, look at our prospects, we're loaded and it's inevitable we're going to be a powerhouse", while actually doing nothing to tangibly improve his roster.

Hope doesn't build winners.
 
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26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
33,428
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Hughes said he hears all the time habs fan wanting the team to lose but he doesn’t agree. He had many clients who were young clients in that setting and if the team has no desire to win and no goals then the goals become individualistic and that long term is not good for the player.
It's amazing how we're playing about .500 hockey and still bottom 7/8 in the league.

That's a pretty good scenario. If we stay there up until the deadline, then trade vets and sink to 5th worst, that would be even better.
 

CDN24

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
3,729
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That's if you only choose to focus on their "tanking" and their top end picks....but I promise you if you look at teams like the Bolts or Caps, they've done a bunch of other moves they did which had nothing to do with tanking or acquiring picks, which were crucial to their success.

Do the Bolts win Cups are a ton of games without Kucherov or Point or Cernak or the Caps without Carlson, Wilson, Oshie, Eller?

The generational picks like Crosby/Ovechkin, have skewed the way we look at how to build a winner, but it's really "not seeing the forest for the trees" kind of thing.

There's no set sequential order of when or how things need to happen, as I said, it's really just a series of very fortunate events coming together at the right time.

I just think it's not a good idea to take the Oilers or Sabres or Sens approach to building almost exclusively through tanking because it ignores all the other variables that actually transition you from rebuilding, to actually, building.

That's actually the "dirty middle" that you want to avoid, where you're stuck in a perpetual rebuild, while not actually building anything at all.

Pierre Dorion literally spent the last 5 years telling everyone "Hey, look at our prospects, we're loaded and it's inevitable we're going to be a powerhouse", while actually doing nothing to tangibly improve his roster.

Hope doesn't build winners.
In the salary Cap era all the cup winners but 1 had 1 thing in common. They all had an elite minute eating D man or more.
Vegas had Pietrangelo
Avs had Makar+
Tampa had Hedman and Mcdonough
Blues had Pietrangelo
Caps had Carlson
Pens had Letang
Hawks had Duncan keith and Seabrook
Kings had doughty
Bruins had Chara
Wings had Lidstrom
Ducks had Neidermayer/pronger
with apologies to Arron Ward the Hurricanes in 2006 coming out of the lockout is the only one without a dominant D man
 

Saundies

Fly On The Wall
Jun 8, 2012
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I also think the report that Philly offered Montreal Gauthier for their 5th with the intention of taking Reinbacher should make people realize that he is a special player.

Arizona apparently wanted him, but when Reinbacher was off the board, they went with Simashev. And now Philly was willing to trade one of their top prospects for the opportunity to draft Reinbacher.
I don't know if this is a case of DR being special, or if these teams wanted a D over a F for their prospect pool. That's what makes him being our pick so baffling to me.

If Philly offered us Gauthier, and Nashville reportedly offered us Askarov +, the selection to me is even worse. With all due respect to Joshua Roy/Sean Farrell, etc, we have no one in our system coming up on F or G that moves any sort of needle the way those two prospects could have. Reinbacher, to me, doesn't stand out a whole lot from our logjam at D where he is a tier above the rest and HAD to be taken.
 

bcv

My french sucks.
Sep 18, 2010
4,731
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I don't know if this is a case of DR being special, or if these teams wanted a D over a F for their prospect pool. That's what makes him being our pick so baffling to me.

If Philly offered us Gauthier, and Nashville reportedly offered us Askarov +, the selection to me is even worse. With all due respect to Joshua Roy/Sean Farrell, etc, we have no one in our system coming up on F or G that moves any sort of needle the way those two prospects could have. Reinbacher, to me, doesn't stand out a whole lot from our logjam at D where he is a tier above the rest and HAD to be taken.

It just means they prefered RB to any forward available at that moment. It doesn't mean they won't add any other promising forward prospect in the future.
 
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Saundies

Fly On The Wall
Jun 8, 2012
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It just means they prefered RB to any forward available at that moment. It doesn't mean they won't add any other promising forward prospect in the future.
You're not wrong, I just don't understand the logic of preferring this player in such a forward-heavy draft (which was also said to be strong talent-wise... obviously time will tell).

Can't go back and can't re-write history, but as of right now I don't get it and am not any closer to getting it than I was the day it happened.
 
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Wats

Error 520
Mar 8, 2006
42,240
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That's if you only choose to focus on their "tanking" and their top end picks....but I promise you if you look at teams like the Bolts or Caps, they've done a bunch of other moves they did which had nothing to do with tanking or acquiring picks, which were crucial to their success.

Do the Bolts win Cups are a ton of games without Kucherov or Point or Cernak or the Caps without Carlson, Wilson, Oshie, Eller?

The generational picks like Crosby/Ovechkin, have skewed the way we look at how to build a winner, but it's really "not seeing the forest for the trees" kind of thing.

There's no set sequential order of when or how things need to happen, as I said, it's really just a series of very fortunate events coming together at the right time.

I just think it's not a good idea to take the Oilers or Sabres or Sens approach to building almost exclusively through tanking because it ignores all the other variables that actually transition you from rebuilding, to actually, building.

That's actually the "dirty middle" that you want to avoid, where you're stuck in a perpetual rebuild, while not actually building anything at all.

Pierre Dorion literally spent the last 5 years telling everyone "Hey, look at our prospects, we're loaded and it's inevitable we're going to be a powerhouse", while actually doing nothing to tangibly improve his roster.

Hope doesn't build winners.

No one is saying exclusively tank. Tanking didn't stop Tampa from drafting/developing Point/Kucherov or Washington/Pittsburgh/Hawks from getting all their draft steals like Carlson/Keith/Letang etc.
 
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HuGort

Registered User
Jun 15, 2012
21,790
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I don't know if this is a case of DR being special, or if these teams wanted a D over a F for their prospect pool. That's what makes him being our pick so baffling to me.

If Philly offered us Gauthier, and Nashville reportedly offered us Askarov +, the selection to me is even worse. With all due respect to Joshua Roy/Sean Farrell, etc, we have no one in our system coming up on F or G that moves any sort of needle the way those two prospects could have. Reinbacher, to me, doesn't stand out a whole lot from our logjam at D where he is a tier above the rest and HAD to be taken.
Big mobile defensemen who can handle the puck usually go on to be main part of Cup team. Why many GMs wanted Reinbacher over more offensive skilled players.
 

417

Sheeeeeeeeeeeit!!!!!
Feb 20, 2003
52,492
30,412
Ottawa
No one is saying exclusively tank. Tanking didn't stop Tampa from drafting/developing Point/Kucherov or Washington/Pittsburgh/Hawks from getting all their draft steals like Carlson/Keith/Letang etc.
A few of the comments quoted from my interaction with @Whitesnake (and btw this isn't meant to call out WS, just to highlight that the discussion i'm having around him was/is specifically about him arguing that it's about exclusively tanking)

"The only way you can get on top are with superior picks."

"Look at the last cup winners since the salary cap era, and MOST of them have won by tanking or getting top end picks."


So yes, people are arguing that it's exclusively about tanking since it's the very discussion i'm having lol. If it's not with WS, I've seen it mentioned here several times over the years or on twitter.

It's focusing on one aspect and ignoring all the other contributing factors.
 

MrNasty

Registered User
Jun 13, 2007
3,820
2,028
Nova Scotia
Look at the last cup winners since the salary cap era, and MOST of them have won by tanking or getting top end picks. Others have done it, like Vegas, St.Louis and Boston....but that's not thet majority.
There are plenty of examples of teams tanking and not winning anything after too. There is no one answer.
 

CDN24

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
3,729
3,187
You're not wrong, I just don't understand the logic of preferring this player in such a forward-heavy draft (which was also said to be strong talent-wise... obviously time will tell).

Can't go back and can't re-write history, but as of right now I don't get it and am not any closer to getting it than I was the day it happened.
It was a forward heavy draft but remember that 4 forwards in Bedard, Carlsson, Fantelli and Smith were already off the board.

I don't think Gauthier being offered moves the needle or changes anything. Gauthier was the 5th pick in a lessor draft. If the 2023 draft was that much better then there were better options than Gauthier available at 5.

Then we are back to Reinbacher vs Michkov/Leonard/Dvorsky etc
 
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Sterling Archer

Registered User
Sep 26, 2006
23,358
14,126
I think Zegras is a player that would do well here and bring some much needed offence to the Habs that desperately need it. Good friends with Caufield too. I can see it happening and hope it happens. Feels more likely after the Gauthier trade.
 

RationalExpectations

Registered User
May 12, 2019
5,248
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I think Zegras is a player that would do well here and bring some much needed offence to the Habs that desperately need it. Good friends with Caufield too. I can see it happening and hope it happens. Feels more likely after the Gauthier trade.
MTL does not have much to offer though. Also Zegras needs to improve his overall game, he seems more like a highlight reel kind of guy than a key piece to a cup winner
 

morhilane

Registered User
Feb 28, 2021
9,094
11,767
It's amazing how we're playing about .500 hockey and still bottom 7/8 in the league.

That's a pretty good scenario. If we stay there up until the deadline, then trade vets and sink to 5th worst, that would be even better.
Habs might be bottom 7/8 in the league, but they are in a group of about 10 teams fighting for a playoff spots where a few wins/loses are enough to get into/lose a wildcard. It's a real carrousel in there.

And those teams are all mostly in the Habs division, so lots of 4 pts games coming.
And those players who should be traded haven't really been keeping the team afloat outside maybe Monahan.

I can see Allen, Pearson (coming back in like 2 weeks) and Kovacevic being traded at the deadline and that won't affect the line-up much.

Monahan will hurt more because the Habs have lost two NHL centers for the season already, but Newhook should come back around the deadline and can probably take 3rd line center duties.
 

LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
26,310
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MTL does not have much to offer though. Also Zegras needs to improve his overall game, he seems more like a highlight reel kind of guy than a key piece to a cup winner
I would not touch Zegras with a 100 foot pole considering the price he'll cost. Lot of skills. Lot of "dentelle". Don't think he's a guy you win with leading your core. Anaheim will want more than Guhle.
 

The Great Weal

Phil's Pizza
Jan 15, 2015
55,315
71,093
Damn! If Zegras is available, i would consider giving up Ghule to get him. Not because I dont think Guhle is amazing and could be a #1D but because you can't get a player of Zegras caliber without giving up something and we have a lot of good LD coming up.
There's a reason why Ducks want to trade him, he's a heavily flawed player.
 
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