HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #80

[Boss Man Hughes]

This is how hockey teams stay bad. ^

Actually that is how you build a contender if you do it right. Anderson is a decent power forward with minimal hockey sense. Of course you only move him if the offer is an overpay. The same with Dvorak. If it isn't an overpay then give them this season to build up their value and trade them if they don't fit into HuGo's plans.
Giving away good young assets like DeBrincat and Dach is how you stay prepetually bad.

 

[Runner77]

Actually that is how you build a contender if you do it right. Anderson is a decent power forward with minimal hockey sense. Of course you only move him if the offer is an overpay. The same with Dvorak. If it isn't an overpay then give them this season to build up their value and trade them if they don't fit into HuGo's plans.
Giving away good young assets like DeBrincat and Dach is how you stay prepetually bad.

I still don’t get what the Hawks were trying to do by bailing on DeBrincat and Dach.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I still don’t get what the Hawks were trying to do by bailing on DeBrincat and Dach.

They're doing a tanking rebuild. They don't think they'll be good until DeBrincat is in his late 20s/early 30s, at which point he's very likely to be overpaid if he decided to stick around. They probably just don't believe in Dach's upside and preferred to get value for him now when they could. Which is arguably what Montreal did with Romanov.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Puljujarvi at age 24 with a one year deal and one more RFA year left is not a move I would make. Not when Caufield and possibly Dach's contract would also have to be signed.

I'd trade for Dubois but not Puljujarvi. Buyer beware on Puljujarvi with his production coming by playing with either of McDavid or Drai.

Armia for Poolparty straight up is a great deal. Dump Poolparty at the end of the year and save another 3.5 mil. I'd give a 4th to do that.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

Only as a means of getting Gallagher to waive his NTC.

He can waive it all the wants but unfortunately no GM will come calling for him

 

[Habs Halifax]

Armia for Poolparty straight up is a great deal. Dump Poolparty at the end of the year and save another 3.5 mil. I'd give a 4th to do that.

Why would the Oilers make that move?

 

[Mcdonaldz]

Subban never would’ve lasted the entirety of his contract here regardless. I imagine he would’ve been traded sometime between 2017-2019 if he wasn’t traded when he was. Especially with Bergevin here. The timing of the trade ended up being smart with hindsight. The problem is the fact he was traded for a win now player that set us back 5 years.

Bergevin makes a good move … “imagine if we traded him later … especially with Bergevin here” … HE’S the guy that traded him early lol

Didn’t know the Bergevin bashing applied the bad moves he supposedly would’ve made if he didn’t make his good ones loll

 

[Habs Halifax]

He can waive it all the wants but unfortunately no GM will come calling for him

Not likely today cause even at 50% retention, it's difficult to move. See Patch and the cap challenges so many teams are facing.

Talking Gallagher trade today is very premature. A story for another day.

If he doesn’t rebound in those first two seasons when he’s younger, he likely never will. The farther players like him are on the other side of 30, the lower our expectations.

Agreed but we have no choice but to go down that road and see where we stand in 2 years. I'm a firm believer that you are never as good as your best season and your not as bad as your worse.

Yes, Gallagher is age 30 and he rebounded before but in his 20's. I don't think this is as bad as the Lucic road to be honest but I can only guess. Gallagher's skating is what concerns me the most... he's getting smothered very quickly and he knows it, which causes brain cramp puck management decisions. Kind of like when Drouin has the puck and knows contact is coming. The brain does weird things in those situations

 

[sandviper]

Or move some wingers in doing it...

Ideally at least 2...

 

[Habs Halifax]

I still don’t get what the Hawks were trying to do by bailing on DeBrincat and Dach.

I can understand DeBrincat a bit more than Dach. Dach is 21 and he will not help you move up the standings and hurt your Bedard chances. DeBrincat with Kane still produces.

I think they are doubling down on tank/rebound strategy and they might try, try, try to get into another Kane/Toes with supporting cast again. Good luck playing the lottery!

 

[Runner77]

They're doing a tanking rebuild. They don't think they'll be good until DeBrincat is in his late 20s/early 30s, at which point he's very likely to be overpaid if he decided to stick around. They probably just don't believe in Dach's upside and preferred to get value for him now when they could. Which is arguably what Montreal did with Romanov.

Do teams still operate on the strategy of a long, drawn out rebuild? DeBrincat is only 24. I find it difficult to believe that he would not be a great player to have around if the Hawks went for say a 3-year turnaround.

As for your other point on Romanov, I’d say it’s a mix between your point (with the caveat that they believed in him somewhat but felt that others could overtake him) and dealing a player from a position of strength in order to try and fill the most prized position in hockey.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Ideally at least 2...

Lets say Dach gets a Chytil contract (2 years at $2.3M AAV)....

1) I doubt Price is on LTIR before the season starts... even if he struggles in preseason. They will place that contract on LTIR after the season starts. No doubt in my mind that they want the ability to accrue cap space as the season goes along

2) Lets say Price is not on LTIR, I doubt they will waive Monty so I see us having 3 goalies on the 23 man roster.

3) Then what? If Slaf earns a spot, I see the potential for us to put 3 of Dadonov, Drouin, Hoffman, Byron, Pezzetta, on waivers and they start in the AHL.

Remember folks, this is how we get under the cap type examples. I think it has to be a 22 man roster and with what I have been playing around with, it's $85k of cap space.

 

[Runner77]

He can waive it all the wants but unfortunately no GM will come calling for him

Well yes, it was meant for levity. When Pacioretty went for future considerations, how could Gallagher’s contract be moved without swallowing a massive bitter pill? Just got to grin and bear it and look for other ways to create cap room.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Do teams still operate on the strategy of a long, drawn out rebuild? DeBrincat is only 24. I find it difficult to believe that he would not be a great player to have around if the Hawks went for say a 3-year turnaround.

As for your other point on Romanov, I’d say it’s s mix between your point (with the caveat that they believed in him somewhat but felt that others could overtake him) and dealing a player from a position of strength in order to try and fill the most prized position in hockey.

Of course they do. Just last season Arizona traded two 26 year olds. And the truth is 3 year turnarounds are incredibly difficult in general and would be very tough for Chicago in particular.

Going into this offseason, Chicago had no 1st, a very shallow prospect pool, Kane on an expiring deal in his 30s, no goaltending, an overpaid #1 D-man and no D depth and very little forward depth. Their choices were to either go ham in free agency or tear things down. And given how poorly free agency goes for most teams, they chose the latter.

The biggest reason Montreal isn't doing that is that they've been building up their young prospect base since 2018. Not very well, but they have a lot of guys who have NHLer upside. They think they can build up the team more organically.

 

[rik schau]

Puuljarvi getting that money awarded through arbitration is just wrong. Makes Gallagher's contract more palatable.lol

 

[xposbrad]

I can understand DeBrincat a bit more than Dach. Dach is 21 and he will not help you move up the standings and hurt your Bedard chances. DeBrincat with Kane still produces.

I think they are doubling down on tank/rebound strategy and they might try, try, try to get into another Kane/Toes with supporting cast again. Good luck playing the lottery!

They got Frank Nazar. They didn't know at the time, but I am sure they had him on their list. He probably has the same upside as Dach but 3 years younger. Another failed year in the NHL for Dach and he most likely wouldn't even get a mid 1st rounder back.

 

[Runner77]

Of course they do. Just last season Arizona traded two 26 year olds. And the truth is 3 year turnarounds are incredibly difficult in general and would be very tough for Chicago in particular.

Going into this offseason, Chicago had no 1st, a very shallow prospect pool, Kane on an expiring deal in his 30s, no goaltending, an overpaid #1 D-man and no D depth and very little forward depth. Their choices were to either go ham in free agency or tear things down. And given how poorly free agency goes for most teams, they chose the latter.

The biggest reason Montreal isn't doing that is that they've been building up their young prospect base since 2018. Not very well, but they have a lot of guys who have NHLer upside. They think they can build up the team more organically.

I think you’re right about the Hawks since they’ve literally went scorched earth, so it’s tougher to do a short rebuild. In general, it just seems to me that owners tend to favor short turnarounds for obvious reasons, especially in longstanding markets.

For Montreal, ownership never embraced a long rebuild and Geoff always claimed that the fan base would never welcome it, so they were never going to embark on one regardless. There is also the fact that Gorton presided over a short term turnaround in NY and his experience in that regard was likely a hiring consideration.

The young prospect base you mention was not replete with high end assets prior to this draft. Some great complementary pieces, middle sixers, 2nd pairing types, uncertainty re goalie prospects.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Of course they do. Just last season Arizona traded two 26 year olds. And the truth is 3 year turnarounds are incredibly difficult in general and would be very tough for Chicago in particular.

Going into this offseason, Chicago had no 1st, a very shallow prospect pool, Kane on an expiring deal in his 30s, no goaltending, an overpaid #1 D-man and no D depth and very little forward depth. Their choices were to either go ham in free agency or tear things down. And given how poorly free agency goes for most teams, they chose the latter.

The biggest reason Montreal isn't doing that is that they've been building up their young prospect base since 2018. Not very well, but they have a lot of guys who have NHLer upside. They think they can build up the team more organically.

Exactly how I see it too.

Question for you and others... who has the better youth roster and pool today? Sens or Habs? Sens I would say but we are not that far off from where they are.

Not naming them all but I don't see them that much far ahead than us.

Norris vs Suzuki
Stutzle vs Dach
Tkachuk vs Slaf
Batherson vs Anderson? (couldn't find someone younger and Batherson might be one of "those 8 guys")
Formenton vs Pitlick?
Pinto vs Farrell

Chabot vs Barron (not really fair but we don't have a matured Chabot at the moment)
Brannstrom vs Harris
Sanderson vs Guhle

 

[BLONG7]

Exactly how I see it too.

Question for you and others... who has the better youth roster and pool today? Sens or Habs? Sens I would say but we are not that far off from where they are.

Not naming them all but I don't see them that much far ahead than us.

Norris vs Suzuki
Stutzle vs Dach
Tkachuk vs Slaf
Batherson vs Anderson? (couldn't find someone younger and Batherson might be one of "those 8 guys")
Formenton vs Pitlick?
Pinto vs Farrell

Chabot vs Barron (not really fair but we don't have a matured Chabot at the moment)
Brannstrom vs Harris
Sanderson vs Guhle

We are close....and if we believe the rumblings, people now, want to come to Montreal....
Our turnaround will be fairly swift.......goaltending will be an issue though.
Time to build a team out front, and not lay it ALL on the goalie anyhow.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I think you’re right about the Hawks since they’ve literally went scorched earth, so it’s tougher to do a short rebuild. In general, it just seems to me that owners tend to favor short turnarounds for obvious reasons, especially in longstanding markets.

For Montreal, ownership never embraced a long rebuild and Geoff always claimed that the fan base would never welcome it, so they were never going to embark on one regardless. There is also the fact that Gorton presided over a short term turnaround in NY and his experience in that regard was likely hiring consideration.

The young prospect base you mention was not replete with high end assets prior to this draft. Some great complementary pieces, middle sixers, 2nd pairing types, uncertainty re goalie prospects.

Its kind of funny, since the Athletic Chicago did a deep dive into it and the argument was that owners in big markets are actually more willing to go through long term rebuilds. Because those teams can still be profitable with a bad team on the ice. Teams in smaller markets tend to want to be competitive so they can drive interest. Shapiro just wrote and article where he cites someone high up in Florida's front office saying that their number one goal is to grow the brand, not win the cup.

I think Molson just doesn't want a long term rebuild and wont do it unless he's forced to. Hell, Montreal's doing a shorter term rebuild now because they literally have no other choice. They've had to sell guys for futures just to get under the cap for next season.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

If we win Bedard and trade for Dubois next summer:

Slaf - Suzuki - Caufield
Dubois - Bedard - Anderson
Farrell - Dach - Gallagher
Pitlick - Evans - Armia
RHP, Hoffman, Ylonen

The habs offense will be elite

 

[Runner77]

I think Molson just doesn't want a long term rebuild and wont do it unless he's forced to. Hell, Montreal's doing a shorter term rebuild now because they literally have no other choice. They've had to sell guys for futures just to get under the cap for next season.

I’ve seen a writer refer to Bergevin’s bad contracts near the end of his tenure as acts of sabotage. Just the lethal combo of several non elite assets getting overpaid and being granted excess term during a flat cap period.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I’ve seen a writer refer to Bergevin’s bad contracts near the end of his tenure as acts of sabotage. Just the lethal combo of several non elite assets getting overpaid and being granted excess term during a flat cap period.

I don't think they were acts of sabotage, I think its a function of him really not believing windows are a thing. He just makes moves to get players he likes and patch holes.

They did sabotage any chance Montreal had to be competitive for the next few seasons however.

I have more confidence in the current management group since Gorton's calling card has always been acquiring elite talent.

 

[Wats]

Exactly how I see it too.

Question for you and others... who has the better youth roster and pool today? Sens or Habs? Sens I would say but we are not that far off from where they are.

Not naming them all but I don't see them that much far ahead than us.

Norris vs Suzuki
Stutzle vs Dach
Tkachuk vs Slaf
Batherson vs Anderson? (couldn't find someone younger and Batherson might be one of "those 8 guys")
Formenton vs Pitlick?
Pinto vs Farrell

Chabot vs Barron (not really fair but we don't have a matured Chabot at the moment)
Brannstrom vs Harris
Sanderson vs Guhle

Not sure how you can say it's anywhere close. The Habs side can maybe develop into similar quality if all goes well but fact is the Sens players are already reached the upside and young enough to suggest they'll get even better.

The fact a 28 year old Anderson or Pitlick had to be included shows how far they are in 'youth roster' players.

 

[Milhouse40]

Its kind of funny, since the Athletic Chicago did a deep dive into it and the argument was that owners in big markets are actually more willing to go through long term rebuilds. Because those teams can still be profitable with a bad team on the ice. Teams in smaller markets tend to want to be competitive so they can drive interest. Shapiro just wrote and article where he cites someone high up in Florida's front office saying that their number one goal is to grow the brand, not win the cup.

I think Molson just doesn't want a long term rebuild and wont do it unless he's forced to. Hell, Montreal's doing a shorter term rebuild now because they literally have no other choice. They've had to sell guys for futures just to get under the cap for next season.

I'm still thinking the Habs don't need a typical long term rebuild......

Since 2018 we had the 1st overall, 3rd overall, 15th, 16th and 31st.
We had 49 picks, that's 14 more picks than what a team normally have, including 6 of them in the 1st 2 round.
We already have 11 picks (+4) next year including 2 x 1st round pick in our backpocket and we will draft high next year again.

If the plan of a rebuild is to draft high, gets tons pick and prospect......that part of the job is mostly done (assuming next year we finish 1-10). It surely don't need another 5 years.