HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #80

[Habs Icing]

Ten years of Bergevin! We can hack a few more now that there's a light at the end of the tunnel

Let's hope that the light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming vehicle.

 

[CHfan1]

Once again, the main rule is you can sign an extension when it's less than 1 year of expiry. Is there some side rule where you can't cause he accepted a qualifying offer? I'm not aware of it and don't see any reason why it would block it? Are you still 99% confident?

Suzuki has played less games but Dubois is only 1 year older. Saying Dubois is going to cap out at 60 pts and Suzuki is going to reach 80 or more is bias. Suzuki has better playoff stats yes but these two are close in potential. I would peg both of them in their prime as 60-80 pts and it's possible Suzuki has a bit more offensive upside and could get to the 80-90 range where Dubois end up 70-80. At the end of the day, the year/year point totals will fluctuate depending on how they are surrounded.

From the CBA:

A Player who is party to a one-year SPC may not enter into an "extension" of such SPC prior to January 1 of the League Year covered by such SPC.

 

[salbutera]

Players who are non resident in Canada and living in a jurisdiction that doesn't view bonuses as taxable income have to pay withholding tax in Canada (specifically talking about the Canada/US tax treaty here).

And the 50% refundable withholding tax rate is less tax than Canadians would pay in places like Ontario or Quebec. Its a better investment vehicle.

Most players also have much less to no income after they retire, so they can make use of lower marginal tax rates.

You're also probably overrating the value, because if you contribute too much it will be viewed as a salary deferral arrangement, which would be taxed as straight income.

Incorrect - based on US / Canada tax treaty there’s a special clause that bonus for a US resident player cannot exceed 15% of gross

Auston Matthews Shoots and Scores Tax Savings | Crowe Soberman LLP

On February 5, Auston Matthews signed a 5-year contract extension with the Leafs for $58.15M. Fans have reason to be thrilled today, but Canadian taxpayers may be a bit irritated.

www.crowe.com

 

[CaptainKirk]

I'm concerned at how many posters are thinking about rebuilding in a simplistic way.

Say we continue to 'Tank' and 'Rebuild' and miss on all our draft picks? What if they don't develop well? What if we end up like Buffalo and we are awful for 10+ years?

What if we can't sign UFA's like Dubois & Huberdeau? What then?

The best course of action is balancing rebuilding and acting on things you can control.

What can you control? Trying to secure the assets you need to build a winner. Yes we need to draft as high as we can again, but it is comedy to think that we will be able to get Huberdeau or Dubois for 'Free' when they hit UFA.

Trade the assets you need to, to lock down your pieces WHILE you are rebuilding.

Tanking does not equal success.

It would cost too many young assets to obtain them now through trade. Nobody wants our cap dumps. If we pay what the Jets and Flames are expecting, we’d be left with Dubois, Huberdeau and a bunch of crap. I say see where we are next offseason.

 

[Habs Halifax]

From the CBA:

A Player who is party to a one-year SPC may not enter into an "extension" of such SPC prior to January 1 of the League Year covered by such SPC.

What does SPC stand for? Standard player contract?

The 99% confident part with no context was comical and I was the one who brought up the possible qualifying offer as one reason it could block an extension.

I'm not sure. If it's true, I have zero interest in trading for Dubois without the ability to get the extension in place at the time of the trade. So I guess we might have to wait till after January?

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

Huberdeau talking about being open to sign long term on Calgary - think that's his best option

Yeah I think Calgary still has a pretty good team. It would make sense.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Incorrect - based on US / Canada tax treaty there’s a special clause that bonus for a US resident player cannot exceed 15% of gross

Auston Matthews Shoots and Scores Tax Savings | Crowe Soberman LLP

On February 5, Auston Matthews signed a 5-year contract extension with the Leafs for $58.15M. Fans have reason to be thrilled today, but Canadian taxpayers may be a bit irritated.

www.crowe.com

I was specifically talking about resident Canadians there.

 

[salbutera]

I was specifically talking about resident Canadians there.

There’s a potential win-win for Habs w Huberdeau and potentially PLD if he’s established US residency and a mega bonanza for both players income wise

 

[Omar]

Again:

Shouldn't two lottery picks (2022 and 2023) be enough?

Yes, I wouldn’t touch Huberdeau or Dubois now though. Next summer is fair game

 

[CHfan1]

What does SPC stand for? Standard player contract?

Correct.

 

[Captain Mountain]

There’s a potential win-win for Habs w Huberdeau and potentially PLD if he’s established US residency and a mega bonanza for both players income wise

Again, I don't think you're quite getting how RCA's work.

 

[salbutera]

Again, I don't think you're quite getting how RCA's work.

RCA for Canadian residents is different than for US residents playing for a CDN NHL team. RCA has been around forever, the Habs used it as a means in the 70s for their players. About 7-years ago Revenue Canada agreed to modify RCA language to address bonus payments for pro athletes, after tremendous lobbying by CDN based NHL dreams, the league itself and the US government on behalf of both.

Though it falls under RCA stipulation, it’s a limited loophole created for US resident players within the Revenue Canada construct including US / Canada tax treaty

Austin Matthews was the first contract to be passed through the modified treaty - for US residents it’s not deferred retirement, it’s a shelter to protect bonus payments

Should read that link to Austin Matthews contract I posted …

 

[Captain Mountain]

RCA for Canadian residents is different than for US residents playing for a CDN NHL team. RCA has been around forever, the Habs used it as a means in the 70s for their players. About 7-years ago Revenue Canada agreed to modify RCA language to address bonus payments for pro athletes, after tremendous lobbying by CDN based NHL dreams, the league itself and the US government on behalf of both.

Though it falls under RCA stipulation, it’s a limited loophole created for US resident players within the Revenue Canada construct including US / Canada tax treaty

Trust me, I am well aware of what RCAs are and how they work. I know how they work with athletes. I remember when the CRA started attacking them in 2013 and how they lost there around 2015.

You're overestimating the impact and RCA would have.

 

[salbutera]

Trust me, I am well aware of what RCAs are and how they work. I know how they work with athletes. I remember when the CRA started attacking them in 2013 and how they lost there around 2015.

You're overestimating the impact and RCA would have.

Read that article..Austin Matthews pays minimal taxes in US or Canada while pocketing his entire bonus payment in todays $

 

[absolute garbage]

Are you still 99% confident? I'm not being any snarky than you are so drop that narrative. Do you have some sources that support your 99% confidence? If you are 99% confident, you have to have some sources or examples right? I have a fact... You can extend any player when their current contract is 1 year less of expiry. Matching qualifying offer changes it? I guess that's where your 99% confidence comes from?

I gave you my predictions for both Suzuki and Dubois. They are both 60-80 pts threats depending on how you surround them. You said Suzuki is worth more correct? You also said Dubois is a 60 pts center correct?

So let me get this straight. Because Suzuki has played less games and he signed his contract, his potential is 60+? While Dubois is one year older with more games played and has plateaued at 60 pts cause he don't have a 8 year deal yet?

What makes you think Suzuki has more to grow where Dubois has not? More games played and one year older is not a good reason. They are close bud and trying to create narratives where they are not close is reaching.

Look at @CHfan1 post there, he already proved you are wrong and I am right so there you go. Now the big question is how you respond to this? Accept it with humility and admit you were wrong or weasel your way out of it somehow while continuing the snarkyness? Maybe rethink the "method" of your madness? I'll wait.

Really it should've been obvious, and that's why I said I'm 99% sure, because there's never been a case where player has signed 2 contracts in the same day. I also knew about the January 1st date (there was talk about Goligoski agreeing on longer term to Minnesota but because of their cap issues they split it into 2 contracts but the second one couldn't be signed until January 1st), but was not sure if QO possibly takes it even further.

I say Suzuki has more untapped potential. He has 2 seasons less experience in the league and hasn't plateaud yet. If Suzuki scores 60p in the next 2 seasons, I'm inclined to say he's likely to be a 60 point player going forward too, just like Dubois is now.

And again, I'm not exactly thrilled to be giving 8M/yr contracts to 60 point players, I don't think that's a winning strategy.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Read that article..Austin Matthews pays next to nothing in taxes to US or Canada

That has nothing to do with RCAs.

 

[Scotianhab]

I’d rather get a top pick in this loaded draft. Perhaps next summer trade for PLD. He’d be cheaper to acquire then as well. We dont need to be a better team this year by acquiring him.

 

[salbutera]

That has nothing to do with RCAs.

I know, that’s what I’m trying to get across. That was the loophole created as a means of sheltering and the CDN govt used RCA as the existing treaty to slide in that clause for US residents.

Out of sight out of mind..

 

[Sterling Archer]

Money wise
Wouldn’t be the first or last

But how are they using Habs for leverage?
He signed $6M which was fair. What financial advantage is PLD getting by wanting to go to the Habs? If anything, he’s handicapped himself.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I know …That was the loophole created as a means of sheltering and they used RCA as the existing treaty to do so for US residents.

Out of sight out of mind..

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

[Runner77]

Why do you want to give up so many assets for Dubois?

Florida’s 1st
Dvorak (he’s worth a 1st + prospect)
Armia (worth a late 1st)
Kidney

So essentially we would be giving up 3 x 1st round picks and 2 prospects.. oufffff that’s crazy to me.

Why would we do that when we can get him for free? The cap savings you’re talking about here are abysmal in comparison.

Armia’s worth a late 1st?!?

How quickly can that deal happen? Cattle prodding stick included (might help when he gets into deep funks, like 95% of the time).

 

[Guy Larose]

 

[salbutera]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Revenue Canada didn’t know where to stick this amendment, they slid it in under RCA special clause for US / Canada tax treaty - even though this is not used to fund the retirement of an employee, their loss of employment or a substantial change in the services that they provide.

Bottom line is it’s a mega advantage CDN teams have over US counterparts - assuming of course the team has the wherewithal to payout huge bonuses like Leafs & Habs.

From a Habs perspective it can be the game changer in acquiring Huberdeau’s long term services and potentially PLDs assuming he’s secured his US immigration / residency requirements

 

[Captain Mountain]

Revenue Canada didn’t know where to stick this amendment, they slid it in under RCA special clause for US / Canada tax treaty - even though this is not used to fund the retirement of an employee, their loss of employment or a substantial change in the services that they provide.

Bottom line is it’s a mega advantage CDN teams have over US counterparts - assuming of course the team has the wherewithal to payout huge bonuses like Leafs & Habs

I think you're getting caught up in the tax treaty and need to read section 248(1) of the ITA.

 

[Richiebottles]

This board is going to collapse when PLD get traded to another team and extends.

Everyone saying 'We will get him next summer, or we will get him as a UFA' will be shocked that we weren't able to get him for 'free'.

Smh.