HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #80

[Habs Halifax]

I think the home town discounts are rare, especially in Canada. Dubois is still going to expect market value.

They are rare but if that situation doesn't exist, I'm not going all in on max deals. I'll just continue with the futures.

My point here is I think you can get Dubois at 7x7 or 7x7.5 now in a sign/trade. Others are saying why trade futures like the Panthers 1st and Kidney when you can get him for free in 2 years? Well in two years, the cap will be around $90M for that 24/25 season. I think Dubois market value will be around $9M by then and I want value contracts on our roster. Dubois at $7.5M is a value contract for his prime. Dubois in 2 more years at $9M is not.

This is all about assembling a core around Suzuki's cap hit. That's how you build contenders. Bruins don't content for years if they don't have Chara, Marchand, Bergeron, Pasta on value contracts. And how did they do it? It was all about timing of when those contracts were signed.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

I said if a player like Huberdeau wants to come here you bring him in. I don’t feel the same way about PLD. I’m all for bringing in players as long as you believe in the players. Huberdeau is a game changer, PLD isn’t. My position has never been about tanking for years, so your posts are really strange.

I agree. Huberdeau I believe much more as a player. Also I think he'd be a great leader for the skilled guys.

 

[Habs Halifax]

For Canadian players RCA only defers portion of payment till retirement, there is zero bonus payout advantage taxation wise since Revenue Canada views bonus as taxable income earned - thought being less income at retirement reduces tax burden.

For American players all bonus $ are 100% tax exempt for a handful of states (usual suspects Az, Fla, Tx, TN), and no CDN tax based on US / Canada tax treaty

Hence RCA is all but meaningless for Canadian players but a bonanza for US players or in the case of Huberdeau a Fla resident who’s a native Québécois

Taxes is all about how much you spend for income. Most of any long term deal is locked up for the future. Are they really spending more than $500k per year after the house is purchased?

I want players that want to be in Montreal because they want to win. Not because they want to max out on their contract.

Dubois and Huberdeau can still be set for life after their next deals are signed. It will be 7 year term so are they content with $50M or are they after $60M+. It's a little different if it was $1M vs $10M.

If I'm Hughes and Gorton, the message remains the same. We want to pay you but we also want to be competitive. We need a balanced line that works for both sides or our interests fades away

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

Personally for Huberdeau, I would be looking to have less term if possible.

 

[salbutera]

I think the home town discounts are rare, especially in Canada. Dubois is still going to expect market value.

I’m curious what PLDs immigration status is in the US - having played in CBJ for 3-seasons did he ever get his green card (landed immigration equivalency)? If so, simply needs to setup off-season residency in a no state tax state like Fla and qualifies for RCA no bonus taxation contract structure

 

[larek]

There's no reason to trade for anyone right now
Keep rebuilding properly and keep losing
Couple years will be the time and if they become a free agent who wants to come to Montreal then negotiate if you want that player

 

[salbutera]

Taxes is all about how much you spend for income. Most of any long term deal is locked up for the future. Are they really spending more than $500k per year after the house is purchased?

I want players that want to be in Montreal because they want to win. Not because they want to max out on their contract.

Dubois and Huberdeau can still be set for life after their next deals are signed. It will be 7 year term so are they content with $50M or are they after $60M+. It's a little different if it was $1M vs $10M.

If I'm Hughes and Gorton, the message remains the same. We want to pay you but we also want to be competitive. We need a balanced line that works for both sides or our interests fades away

I guarantee you HuGo will spend max 6-months minus 1-day physically in Canada so as not to have to be liable to Canadian taxation.

Why should players view it any differently? It’s a business for everyone involved - the goal… maximization of in pocket earnings

 

[Habs Halifax]

I would consider it almost an impossible narrative for most players.....what happens if the Habs don't need him or simply don't have the money to sign him....he'll stop playing hockey?

It comes down to the mutual interest and Hughes likely already talked to Dubois agent cause he could (he was a RFA).

You're reaching with the Dubois won't play if the Habs don't show interest or want to sign him. It's very likely that both the Habs and Dubois/agent already know what it might take to get him to Montreal and how long it will be.

Does Tavares retire if the Leafs say no cause they rather acquire a defenseman? That's a stupid narrative in your defense bud. There are primary targets and when both sides are aware there is mutual interest, they both strategize on the path to get there. If it falls though, there are always plan B's and C's.

 

[Scotianhab]

I think there was confusion about my earlier posts regarding Armia & Hoffman. I didn’t mean sending either of them to the Jets as part of a Dubois deal. I was wondering if we attached a mid rd pick to one of them a team line Ana would take them to reach the cap floor.

 

[Habs Halifax]

There's no reason to trade for anyone right now
Keep rebuilding properly and keep losing
Couple years will be the time and if there after agent who wants to come to Montreal then negotiate if you want that player

Do you think Hughes and Gorton have the same exact plan as you? There Is "no reason" to trade for anybody right now? Like none?

 

[larek]

Personally for Huberdeau, I would be looking to have less term if possible.

Huberdeau talking about being open to sign long term on Calgary - think that's his best option

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think there was confusion about my earlier posts regarding Armia & Hoffman. I didn’t mean sending either of them to the Jets as part of a Dubois deal. I was wondering if we attached a mid rd pick to one of them a team line Ana would take them to reach the cap floor.

I figured you may have been talking about that and I think I replied to both outcomes (Dubois package or another trade to free up cap).

I think this is a bad time to trade contracts to a team with cap space. Who's in jeopardy at not reaching the cap floor at this point in time? I think the cap needs to grow and until it does, teams with cap space will use their leverage.

I think if there was a deal to unload Armia or Hoffman and not take salary or a contract back, it would have been done by now.

Huberdeau talking about being open to sign long term on Calgary - think that's his best option

If the Flames want to offer him $9M - $10M on a 8 year extension, I think he says yes.

 

[Richiebottles]

I'm concerned at how many posters are thinking about rebuilding in a simplistic way.

Say we continue to 'Tank' and 'Rebuild' and miss on all our draft picks? What if they don't develop well? What if we end up like Buffalo and we are awful for 10+ years?

What if we can't sign UFA's like Dubois & Huberdeau? What then?

The best course of action is balancing rebuilding and acting on things you can control.

What can you control? Trying to secure the assets you need to build a winner. Yes we need to draft as high as we can again, but it is comedy to think that we will be able to get Huberdeau or Dubois for 'Free' when they hit UFA.

Trade the assets you need to, to lock down your pieces WHILE you are rebuilding.

Tanking does not equal success.

 

[larek]

Do you think Hughes and Gorton have the same exact plan as you? There Is "no reason" to trade for anybody right now? Like none?

No they have your little plan lol
Who said anyone had same plan as them?
Go sit down and relax

 

[absolute garbage]

Once again, the main rule is you can sign an extension when it's less than 1 year of expiry. Is there some side rule where you can't cause he accepted a qualifying offer? I'm not aware of it and don't see any reason why it would block it? Are you still 99% confident?

Suzuki has played less games but Dubois is only 1 year older. Saying Dubois is going to cap out at 60 pts and Suzuki is going to reach 80 or more is bias. Suzuki has better playoff stats yes but these two are close in potential. I would peg both of them in their prime as 60-80 pts and it's possible Suzuki has a bit more offensive upside and could get to the 80-90 range where Dubois end up 70-80. At the end of the day, the year/year point totals will fluctuate depending on how they are surrounded.

I'm not sure if/how QO changes the situation, but again I'm repeating myself here, Dubois literally signed his contract a couple of days ago. The idea that he could sign 2 contracts effectively at the same time does not seem like it would allowed by the CBA (at least I've never seen a player sign effectively a 9 year contract like that). Since you keep insisting that is a thing, why don't you give some sources please instead of just snarky comments.

I didn't say Suzuki would reach 80 points, you are making stuff up now. I said that Suzuki has improved every year and could reach that if the improvement continues, where as Dubois has plateaud at that 60 point mark for a while now. Also I said that I don't think Suzuki was signed to this deal with the idea of him being a 60 point player, they are hoping for more. As getting 60 points out of 8M/yr is not exactly ideal. Not terrible, but not great either.

 

[larek]

I'm concerned at how many posters are thinking about rebuilding in a simplistic way.

Say we continue to 'Tank' and 'Rebuild' and miss on all our draft picks? What if they don't develop well? What if we end up like Buffalo and we are awful for 10+ years?

What if we can't sign UFA's like Dubois & Huberdeau? What then?

The best course of action is balancing rebuilding and acting on things you can control.

What can you control? Trying to secure the assets you need to build a winner. Yes we need to draft as high as we can again, but it is comedy to think that we will be able to get Huberdeau or Dubois for 'Free' when they hit UFA.

Trade the assets you need to, to lock down your pieces WHILE you are rebuilding.

Tanking does not equal success.

Nothing to be concerned about- people have different opinions -

 

[Habs Halifax]

I guarantee you HuGo will spend max 6-months minus 1-day physically in Canada so as not to have to be liable to Canadian taxation.

Why should players view it any differently? It’s a business for everyone involved - the goal… maximization of in pocket earnings

There are many things you can do. Some are obsessive with it and some are more flexible. At the end of the day, you are taxed on the income you spend and the income you don't spend that is invested is not taxed, it's only taxed later when you retire and draw from it. At that point, they can live anywhere they want.

So I ask again, after the House is purchased, what are they spending annually? It has to be less than $500k correct? So the taxes on a salary like that is a difference of $85K (between Florida and Montreal for example which would be the extreme case)

Unless they have plans on investing in other areas where it's income spending. I'm not an accountant so my knowledge in terms of strategy is limited. Not zero but limited.

 

[Captain Mountain]

For Canadian players RCA only defers portion of payment till retirement - thought being less income at retirement reduces tax burden. There is zero bonus payout advantage taxation wise since Revenue Canada views bonus as taxable income

For American players all bonus $ are 100% tax exempt for a handful of states (usual suspects Az, Fla, Tx, TN), and no CDN tax based on US / Canada tax treaty - IRS and certain states do not view bonus as salary thus not taxable income

Hence RCA is all but meaningless for Canadian players but a bonanza for US players or in the case of Huberdeau a Fla resident who’s a native Québécois

Players who are non resident in Canada and living in a jurisdiction that doesn't view bonuses as taxable income have to pay withholding tax in Canada (specifically talking about the Canada/US tax treaty here).

And the 50% refundable withholding tax rate is less tax than Canadians would pay in places like Ontario or Quebec. Its a better investment vehicle.

Most players also have much less to no income after they retire, so they can make use of lower marginal tax rates.

You're also probably overrating the value, because if you contribute too much it will be viewed as a salary deferral arrangement, which would be taxed as straight income.

 

[salbutera]

There are many things you can do. Some are obsessive with it and some are more flexible. At the end of the day, you are taxed on the income you spend and the income you don't spend that is invested is not taxed, it's only taxed later when you retire and draw from it. At that point, they can live anywhere they want.

So I ask again, after the House is purchased, what are they spending annually? It has to be less than $500k correct? So the taxes on a salary like that is a difference of $85K (between Florida and Montreal for example which would be the extreme case)

Unless they have plans on investing in other areas where it's income spending. I'm not an accountant so my knowledge in terms of strategy is limited. Not zero but limited.

The certain US states, your are NEVER taxed on bonus payments to begin with. If you can structure the contract and squirrel away $50M in bonuses over 3-4 years, that type of earnings can’t be matched in Canada as a CDN resident

It’s not $85K.. it’s an order of magnitude difference

 

[Lockin17]

You seriously think they're competing with that lineup? And that goaltending? Not to mention that they can't afford a 6.5 million dollar player on the 4th line. If that's where Gallagher is in 2024, he'll be somewhere else.

Well
Suzuki-Dvorski-Dach will be great centers for many years, top 12 line of center.
On the wing we got ready bright future in Slaf-Caufield ect..
The Defense is ok i beleive, time will tell.
Indeed Goalie is a problem but could always sign a free agent.

 

[SwiftyHab]

Bodes well for our draft ranking

 

[ReHabs]

So in 5 years if we aren't a contender you want us to rebuild but keep Suzuki/Caufield + other good players? Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If Suzuki and Caufield are deemed part of the solution, as Landeskog was in Colorado and Stamkos and Hedman, why would you want the Habs to trade them away?

You trade the middle players, the role players, the passengers and the underperformers and tank for a season or two and gun for it again.

The rebuild rubbish infinite treadmill is the absolute worst case scenario. It simply cannot happen.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm not sure if/how QO changes the situation, but again I'm repeating myself here, Dubois literally signed his contract a couple of days ago. The idea that he could sign 2 contracts effectively at the same time does not seem like it would allowed by the CBA (at least I've never seen a player sign effectively a 9 year contract like that). Since you keep insisting that is a thing, why don't you give some sources please instead of just snarky comments.

I didn't say Suzuki would reach 80 points, you are making stuff up now. I said that Suzuki has improved every year and could reach that if the improvement continues, where as Dubois has plateaud at that 60 point mark for a while now. Also I said that I don't think Suzuki was signed to this deal with the idea of him being a 60 point player, they are hoping for more. As getting 60 points out of 8M/yr is not exactly ideal. Not terrible, but not great either.

Are you still 99% confident? I'm not being any snarky than you are so drop that narrative. Do you have some sources that support your 99% confidence? If you are 99% confident, you have to have some sources or examples right? I have a fact... You can extend any player when their current contract is 1 year less of expiry. Matching qualifying offer changes it? I guess that's where your 99% confidence comes from?

I gave you my predictions for both Suzuki and Dubois. They are both 60-80 pts threats depending on how you surround them. You said Suzuki is worth more correct? You also said Dubois is a 60 pts center correct?

So let me get this straight. Because Suzuki has played less games and he signed his contract, his potential is 60+? While Dubois is one year older with more games played and has plateaued at 60 pts cause he don't have a 8 year deal yet?

What makes you think Suzuki has more to grow where Dubois has not? More games played and one year older is not a good reason. They are close bud and trying to create narratives where they are not close is reaching.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Or he and brisson are leveraging the habs and Hughes already told him he won’t bite
Dubois will be a pipe dream like all other players we wish to acquire

Could you clarify what “leveraging the Habs” means.

 

[themilosh]

Taxes is all about how much you spend for income. Most of any long term deal is locked up for the future. Are they really spending more than $500k per year after the house is purchased?

I want players that want to be in Montreal because they want to win. Not because they want to max out on their contract.

Dubois and Huberdeau can still be set for life after their next deals are signed. It will be 7 year term so are they content with $50M or are they after $60M+. It's a little different if it was $1M vs $10M.

If I'm Hughes and Gorton, the message remains the same. We want to pay you but we also want to be competitive. We need a balanced line that works for both sides or our interests fades away

only other aspect I can see that might be beneficial, if the House Asset (gaining in price) in particular markets.. also, property taxes tend do be much higher in the US, as the prop taxes are used for items that Canada already deducts in Income tax.. Im not sure the output, but I think Canadians come out ahead there.