HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #79

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Maukkis

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Mar 16, 2016
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Yeah Hoffman has little value - I'm surprised you pointed to him. Anderson has like 20x the value that Hoffman has.

I think the deal that makes some sense is an Anderson for PLD trade straight up or close to it.
But ultimately I doubt the deal happens. Hughes traded for Dach - he made his choice.
In my eyes, Anderson has negative value to the point where I can't be bothered to write up a proposal with him in it. His ability to drive play is pretty impressive, but 5.5 x 5 is far beyond what anyone should pay for 25-30 ES points in an 82-game season, which is all he has been good for in the last five years. If Hughes manages to get rid of that contract without including something excruciatingly painful in the deal, I'd suggest looking for a place for the statue. As for the Jets, I sincerely hope that his trade protection saves us in the event that Chevy does not see the obvious.

Again, this is not to be an ass towards HFHabs. With a much better contract, I would happily discuss Anderson.
 

Harry Kakalovich

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The "get him for free later" crowd is mostly filled with people who just don't like Dubois. If you really like a player, you try to find a way to get it done and if it does not work, you move on.

I like that girl, there's something about her, but she is gong to school in Winnipeg, and has a boyfriend right now she is apparently not ready/willing to marry. My friends are worried I may not be able to win her over now, and I may not be able to keep her afterwards because I still have two years of school left and am in life building phase. Other mutual friends are telling me she kind of likes me and is from Montreal.

Should I take the advice to wait until her current relationship ends (looks like two years IF NO ONE ELSE MAKES A MOVE) and at that point if the people who say she likes me and wants to move to Montreal are right, she'll come running!

If I took the advice to not reach out, it would logically be that I don't really think she could be part of my life when I finish building it.
Well, it is good etiquette not to sleep with other people's partners (unless some agreement is in place), no?
 

ReHabs

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A Jets fan here, who has more or less lost his entire trust in the Jets' front office. No ill will, no bad intentions, just a bunch of opinions that I have come up with about this Dubois debacle.

I reckon that if a Dubois to MTL is to happen, it happens this summer - or it does not happen at all. Reasons?

1) No matter what, Dubois will play next year. As a 24-year-old, holding out to strong arm the Jets does not get him closer to UFA. Holding out would waste him a lot of money, possible even more in the long term. Further, I'd assume that the Jets have to get comfortable with the risk of Dubois pulling of his previous stunts again with us, because to get value for him from anyone, he has to either be traded now or to play ball before UFA. Thus, both sides are motivated to get a decision made sooner rather than later.

2) The Jets are in a position where waiting around is not an option. Hellebuyck has two years left on his deal, and contrary to (what seems to be) the consensus around HFJets, the team will enter a full-blown freefall immediately after he departs for a competitive organisation in July 2024. If this is to be prevented, we need to have a coherent, concrete, and believable vision on offer to Hellebuyck and our other UFAs in 2023/24. Having Dubois around is unlikely to help, if it brings uncertainty and instability with it.

3) GM Hughes is and will be under immense pressure to fix one of your worst long-term problems: your cap structure. Between Anderson, Gallagher, Armia, and Dvorak, there is almost 19 million of long-term cap space wasted and severely hindering the rebuild. None of those four represent good value for the money spent, nor do they really fit in with your plans for the future. Add in the much more valuable Evans, Suzuki, and a rough estimation of Caufield's next deal, and you have around 32-35 million of cap allocated towards what still is a rather mediocre group of seven forwards. That is a f***ing lot. And since all of that cap will be in the books when Dubois becomes a UFA, what do you think are the chances of fitting his large UFA deal in there (which he will go for, given that it might be his only chance of getting one)? What do those chances look like after factoring in the potentially enormous paydays of Slafkovsky and Dach? Please note that none of this takes into considerations the back end of the Habs, which... well, is also less than ideal. I'm sure some of you have noticed the problem: you might well think that Dubois wants to come to MTL anyway (and you would be right), but in two years' time, you might not have the option of getting him for free.

Is this to say that you should overpay now to not lose an asset that you don't have? Absolutely not. But if the Habs start planning around Dubois two years before he comes there, a lot can go wrong in that time. It could result in passing on a really good UFA deal next year to preserve cap space for July 2024. It could mean a bridge deal to Caufield, when a long-term deal could be reached instead. It could mean an increasing pressure to make moves under the gun, because Dubois' plan to go to Montréal is already telegraphed to anyone who cares to pay attention. That is also why I predict that the Habs will pass on Dubois if an agreement is not reached this year: Hughes seems smart enough not to allocate his assets on the basis of a promise that someone will come to play for him in two years. You don't even know which level of Dubois you'll get, so it would be foolish to even attempt making your own plans work around him. I would be livid if Cheveldayoff did that, but then again, I'm livid that he still has a job with the Jets anyway.

4) Finally, I would imagine that both GMs would want to find some kind of peace regarding this situation. The reasons are vastly different, but the pressure from fans, ownership, and media will remain strong regardless.

OK, on to the details of the deal, which we have now established is going to happen. Assuming that the Jets are only dealing Dubois here, I think the following can be stated:

- the Habs are not dealing Suzuki, Caufield, Slafkovsky, their own 1sts, or Mesar. Should be obvious to all.
- all players with trade protection are blocking any deal to Winnipeg, meaning that Petry, Edmundson, Anderson, Gallagher, and Dadonov are not in the deal either. Also, the first four are absolute non-starters anyway.

Given what I said above, you need to dump long-term cap to alleviate your future cap issues, and we need to have a semi-competitive roster in place next year. Unfortunately, we have no need, place, room or anything of the like for defensemen on expensive contracts (we have plenty of our own, trust me). Thus, the acceptable cap "dumps" are Dvorak and Hoffman, both of which are very usable at the NHL level. Dvorak makes the most sense as a C, but I would be open to taking on Hoffman (as well) to facilitate a deal. Note that I don't consider Evans as an option here, because that cap hit hardly needs to be offloaded, and Armia's third year with diminishing on-ice results is a non-starter without a serious incentive coming with him (meaning Guhle). Then, futures need to be included to bridge the gap, which depend on whether Hoffman or Byron are included. The more of your cap changes hands, the better the prospect going with them. I have this in mind as a baseline:

Dubois for Dvorak, Byron, FLA 1st 2023 (unprotected), and a prospect not named Guhle/Slaf/Mesar.

As some of you have cleverly noted, the first rounder has to be unprotected, because the protection could end up putting your own 1st in '24 to play, which I'm sure you would find unpleasant as hell. I don't think the Jets can pull off Guhle (especially with how unimpressive your D corps looks for the present and for the future), but the other prospects should be attainable.

What if Dach is in the mix, which I personally find unlikely? I would imagine it can be done: perhaps like this?

Dubois for Dach, Hoffman, FLA 1st 2023 (unprotected), and a prospect not in your top 8?

Hoffman needs to be in the deal now to dump more dollars, since I find it unlikely that you would give up both Dvorak and Dach. Since Dach is likely worth more that Dvorak, the prospect in question should be quite a bit worse than in the first proposal.

Both deals are reasonable: the Habs are not giving up indispensable pieces from the pool of assets that will one day form their core, and the cap implications are at least relatively stable in the next two years. The Jets are not subjected to cap implications longer than what they would pay for Dubois, and get a package of future assets that they could get from any team looking for a top rental next year.
Well argued and reasoned. I'd make that first trade.
 

blarneylad

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Feb 1, 2009
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In my eyes, Anderson has negative value to the point where I can't be bothered to write up a proposal with him in it. His ability to drive play is pretty impressive, but 5.5 x 5 is far beyond what anyone should pay for 25-30 ES points in an 82-game season, which is all he has been good for in the last five years. If Hughes manages to get rid of that contract without including something excruciatingly painful in the deal, I'd suggest looking for a place for the statue. As for the Jets, I sincerely hope that his trade protection saves us in the event that Chevy does not see the obvious.

Again, this is not to be an ass towards HFHabs. With a much better contract, I would happily discuss Anderson.
Well, he did score 47 points less than 5 years ago, and 32 in 69 (not in 82) so although I see the point you are making, you are building it on exaggeration and manipulation of the truth.

Guy healthy, no problem replicating that near 30 goal 47 point campaign. His actual problem is his wreckless play which believe me can be a force to reckon with, but it seems to always end in an injury.
 

Harry Kakalovich

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In my eyes, Anderson has negative value to the point where I can't be bothered to write up a proposal with him in it. His ability to drive play is pretty impressive, but 5.5 x 5 is far beyond what anyone should pay for 25-30 ES points in an 82-game season, which is all he has been good for in the last five years. If Hughes manages to get rid of that contract without including something excruciatingly painful in the deal, I'd suggest looking for a place for the statue.
I guess you deserve Hoffman then. Haha.

Anderson is Hughes's hottest commodity. Lots of teams are calling for him. He's 6'4 skates amazing and scores 20 goals and plays good defense. He has his detractors (like Chiarot), but in the end guys like Anderson are valuable. And he signed that deal after a 1 goal season, so if he was UFA today he would get more.
 
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HomaridII

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Hillarious how people don't think a 60pt center is a #2 center. Pld is top 25 in his position last year in pts and goals. What exactly do you guys think a #2 center is??

If we get PLD and retain Dach the issue we will have is that the #2 and #3 centers would suck on faceoffs, not that PLD is not a proper #2.
 

BaseballCoach

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Dec 15, 2006
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Yeah? He picked 2nd overall and then 1st overall in back to back years, sounds like the Habs are right on track..
LOL, Rangers were 8th worst the lockdown year and lucked out in the lottery. They already had Panarin AND Zibanejad when this fell in their lap. Furthmore, Kakko is not key to their roster and they are competing now.
 

Maukkis

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Mar 16, 2016
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Well, he did score 47 points less than 5 years ago, and 32 in 69 (not in 82) so although I see the point you are making, you are building it on exaggeration and manipulation of the truth.

Guy healthy, no problem replicating that near 30 goal 47 point campaign. His actual problem is his wreckless play which believe me can be a force to reckon with, but it seems to always end in an injury.
I was talking about even strength points, not total points. His average over the last six seasons seems to be about 29.5 ES points per 82 games, so I would hardly call that manipulation of any kind - if anything, I think the manipulative argument here is to look at the season he spent with Panarin and consider that as a base case.
 
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jrom

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Mar 28, 2022
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We heard before the draft that Dvorak & Anderson seemed to be on the verge of being traded. Most seemed to think to Ottawa or NJ, but maybe it was to Winnipeg for Dubois.

Dvorak, Anderson & 13th OA. According to another Athletic report, it was Winnipeg that pulled out of the deal after they asked for someone Montreal was unwilling to trade. Guesses seem to be Guhle or Barron.

View attachment 569833

I read that WPG wants to reunite the Barron brothers (and I can understand us not wanting to move Barron).
 
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Harry Kakalovich

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In my eyes, Anderson has negative value to the point where I can't be bothered to write up a proposal with him in it. His ability to drive play is pretty impressive, but 5.5 x 5 is far beyond what anyone should pay for 25-30 ES points in an 82-game season, which is all he has been good for in the last five years. If Hughes manages to get rid of that contract without including something excruciatingly painful in the deal, I'd suggest looking for a place for the statue. As for the Jets, I sincerely hope that his trade protection saves us in the event that Chevy does not see the obvious.

Again, this is not to be an ass towards HFHabs. With a much better contract, I would happily discuss Anderson.
Do you think PLD's next contract will have negative value? It seems to be trending that way. What's he going to want?
 

bcv

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Sep 18, 2010
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LOL, Rangers were 8th worst the lockdown year and lucked out in the lottery. They already had Panarin AND Zibanejad when this fell in their lap. Furthmore, Kakko is not key to their roster and they are competing now.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

If you can’t see that they finished 8th worst and not the worst because they had Panarin and Ziba (without mentioning Fox that came along later to help them compete now) than I don’t know what to tell you.

No one is gonna fall in their lap this year.
 

417

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Feb 20, 2003
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In my eyes, Anderson has negative value to the point where I can't be bothered to write up a proposal with him in it. His ability to drive play is pretty impressive, but 5.5 x 5 is far beyond what anyone should pay for 25-30 ES points in an 82-game season, which is all he has been good for in the last five years. If Hughes manages to get rid of that contract without including something excruciatingly painful in the deal, I'd suggest looking for a place for the statue. As for the Jets, I sincerely hope that his trade protection saves us in the event that Chevy does not see the obvious.

Again, this is not to be an ass towards HFHabs. With a much better contract, I would happily discuss Anderson.
I promise this isn't how other NHL GMs view him.
 

Maukkis

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Mar 16, 2016
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I guess you deserve Hoffman then. Haha.

Anderson is Hughes's hottest commodity. Lots of teams are calling for him. He's 6'4 skates amazing and scores 20 goals and plays good defense. He has his detractors (like Chiarot), but in the end guys like Anderson are valuable. And he signed that deal after a 1 goal season, so if he was UFA today he would get more.
For what it's worth, Hoffman has put up about 28 ES points per 82 games in the last six seasons, compared to Anderson's 29.5. That comparison is pretty weak, because ignores TOI, linemates, advanced metrics and the like: the point, however, is that Hoffman's production is comparable to Anderson's, but his contract is remarkably better and less risky. I'm positive that you could easily get positive value for Hoffman, if he was to be dealt.

Also, comparing Anderson to Chiarot is an insult. I will never be able to understand the obsession over Chiarot, who has not shown any capability to be a top 4 defenseman in this league yet continues to be paid like one. A Jets fan would know.
 

Et le But

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Nov 28, 2010
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Dubois is interesting but frustrating as a player. So far in his career he's been well below average defensively - both a lack of effort and neutral zone skills have hurt him there. Offensively, he's a very good player, inconsistent but pretty complete, but not high end enough to justify being a 1C considering the other holes in his game.

I do wonder if he would be better off as a winger.

Either way, he's the kind of offensive talent we need more of, but he's definitely not someone I'd sacrifice Suzuki or even Caufield for. Suzuki is a better player in all zones.

One thing that would be nice is PLD definitely makes Anderson expendable, even if they are very different style players.
 

Archijerej

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Jan 17, 2005
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A Jets fan here, who has more or less lost his entire trust in the Jets' front office. No ill will, no bad intentions, just a bunch of opinions that I have come up with about this Dubois debacle.

I reckon that if a Dubois to MTL is to happen, it happens this summer - or it does not happen at all. Reasons?

1) No matter what, Dubois will play next year. As a 24-year-old, holding out to strong arm the Jets does not get him closer to UFA. Holding out would waste him a lot of money, possible even more in the long term. Further, I'd assume that the Jets have to get comfortable with the risk of Dubois pulling of his previous stunts again with us, because to get value for him from anyone, he has to either be traded now or to play ball before UFA. Thus, both sides are motivated to get a decision made sooner rather than later.

2) The Jets are in a position where waiting around is not an option. Hellebuyck has two years left on his deal, and contrary to (what seems to be) the consensus around HFJets, the team will enter a full-blown freefall immediately after he departs for a competitive organisation in July 2024. If this is to be prevented, we need to have a coherent, concrete, and believable vision on offer to Hellebuyck and our other UFAs in 2023/24. Having Dubois around is unlikely to help, if it brings uncertainty and instability with it.

3) GM Hughes is and will be under immense pressure to fix one of your worst long-term problems: your cap structure. Between Anderson, Gallagher, Armia, and Dvorak, there is almost 19 million of long-term cap space wasted and severely hindering the rebuild. None of those four represent good value for the money spent, nor do they really fit in with your plans for the future. Add in the much more valuable Evans, Suzuki, and a rough estimation of Caufield's next deal, and you have around 32-35 million of cap allocated towards what still is a rather mediocre group of seven forwards. That is a f***ing lot. And since all of that cap will be in the books when Dubois becomes a UFA, what do you think are the chances of fitting his large UFA deal in there (which he will go for, given that it might be his only chance of getting one)? What do those chances look like after factoring in the potentially enormous paydays of Slafkovsky and Dach? Please note that none of this takes into considerations the back end of the Habs, which... well, is also less than ideal. I'm sure some of you have noticed the problem: you might well think that Dubois wants to come to MTL anyway (and you would be right), but in two years' time, you might not have the option of getting him for free.

Is this to say that you should overpay now to not lose an asset that you don't have? Absolutely not. But if the Habs start planning around Dubois two years before he comes there, a lot can go wrong in that time. It could result in passing on a really good UFA deal next year to preserve cap space for July 2024. It could mean a bridge deal to Caufield, when a long-term deal could be reached instead. It could mean an increasing pressure to make moves under the gun, because Dubois' plan to go to Montréal is already telegraphed to anyone who cares to pay attention. That is also why I predict that the Habs will pass on Dubois if an agreement is not reached this year: Hughes seems smart enough not to allocate his assets on the basis of a promise that someone will come to play for him in two years. You don't even know which level of Dubois you'll get, so it would be foolish to even attempt making your own plans work around him. I would be livid if Cheveldayoff did that, but then again, I'm livid that he still has a job with the Jets anyway.

4) Finally, I would imagine that both GMs would want to find some kind of peace regarding this situation. The reasons are vastly different, but the pressure from fans, ownership, and media will remain strong regardless.

OK, on to the details of the deal, which we have now established is going to happen. Assuming that the Jets are only dealing Dubois here, I think the following can be stated:

- the Habs are not dealing Suzuki, Caufield, Slafkovsky, their own 1sts, or Mesar. Should be obvious to all.
- all players with trade protection are blocking any deal to Winnipeg, meaning that Petry, Edmundson, Anderson, Gallagher, and Dadonov are not in the deal either. Also, the first four are absolute non-starters anyway.

Given what I said above, you need to dump long-term cap to alleviate your future cap issues, and we need to have a semi-competitive roster in place next year. Unfortunately, we have no need, place, room or anything of the like for defensemen on expensive contracts (we have plenty of our own, trust me). Thus, the acceptable cap "dumps" are Dvorak and Hoffman, both of which are very usable at the NHL level. Dvorak makes the most sense as a C, but I would be open to taking on Hoffman (as well) to facilitate a deal. Note that I don't consider Evans as an option here, because that cap hit hardly needs to be offloaded, and Armia's third year with diminishing on-ice results is a non-starter without a serious incentive coming with him (meaning Guhle). Then, futures need to be included to bridge the gap, which depend on whether Hoffman or Byron are included. The more of your cap changes hands, the better the prospect going with them. I have this in mind as a baseline:

Dubois for Dvorak, Byron, FLA 1st 2023 (unprotected), and a prospect not named Guhle/Slaf/Mesar.

As some of you have cleverly noted, the first rounder has to be unprotected, because the protection could end up putting your own 1st in '24 to play, which I'm sure you would find unpleasant as hell. I don't think the Jets can pull off Guhle (especially with how unimpressive your D corps looks for the present and for the future), but the other prospects should be attainable.

What if Dach is in the mix, which I personally find unlikely? I would imagine it can be done: perhaps like this?

Dubois for Dach, Hoffman, FLA 1st 2023 (unprotected), and a prospect not in your top 8?

Hoffman needs to be in the deal now to dump more dollars, since I find it unlikely that you would give up both Dvorak and Dach. Since Dach is likely worth more that Dvorak, the prospect in question should be quite a bit worse than in the first proposal.

Both deals are reasonable: the Habs are not giving up indispensable pieces from the pool of assets that will one day form their core, and the cap implications are at least relatively stable in the next two years. The Jets are not subjected to cap implications longer than what they would pay for Dubois, and get a package of future assets that they could get from any team looking for a top rental next year.
This is an excellent post. There are minor points I would take issue with, but they are not worth mentioning here. The trade you proposed, based around Dach, is the one I would make instantly. It solidifies our center line long-term, doesn't cost us any of our young core players/prospects (aside from Dach, of course) and does not disrupt the rebuilding of our D. We get rid of Hoffman's cap hit on top of that.

Meanwhile, Jets receive a potential top 6 center to replace Dubois, as well as a solid sweetener in future assets to mitigate the risk and as a compensation for helping the Habs to shed a cap hit.

Nicely done!
 
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BaseballCoach

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Dec 15, 2006
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They’re not giving up Suzuki This really needs to stop
Put Caufield , slafs,, guhle and 23 and 24 first rounders on that list too
Everything and everyone else should be on play
The no-trade list has to include Hutson and Nesar unless it is to replace the 1st round pick from Florida. Unless a team assigns value to that player equal to his potential upside, I would not move either of them.
 

Harry Kakalovich

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For what it's worth, Hoffman has put up about 28 ES points per 82 games in the last six seasons, compared to Anderson's 29.5. That comparison is pretty weak, because ignores TOI, linemates, advanced metrics and the like: the point, however, is that Hoffman's production is comparable to Anderson's, but his contract is remarkably better and less risky. I'm positive that you could easily get positive value for Hoffman, if he was to be dealt.

Also, comparing Anderson to Chiarot is an insult. I will never be able to understand the obsession over Chiarot, who has not shown any capability to be a top 4 defenseman in this league yet continues to be paid like one. A Jets fan would know.
Oh that's great I'd love it if the Habs could trade Hoffman.
 

Barriwhite

Don’t be shocked by the tone of my voice
Nov 8, 2005
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This is an excellent post. There are minor points I would take issue with, but they are not worth mentioning here. The trade you proposed, based around Dach, is the one I would make instantly. It solidifies our center line long-term, doesn't cost us any of our young core players/prospects (aside from Dach, of course) and does not disrupt the rebuilding of our D. We get rid of Hoffman's cap hit on top of that.

Meanwhile, Jets receive a potential top 6 center to replace Dubois, as well as a solid sweetener in future assets to mitigate the risk and as a compensation for helping the Habs to shed a cap hit.

Nicely done!
I’d do the first proposal, Dubois for Dvorak, Byron, FLA 1st 2023 (unprotected), and a prospect not named Guhle/Slaf/Mesar.

And I actually would insert Mesar into that deal as the prospect. That should seal it.
 

Harry Kakalovich

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I would actually be more interested in acquiring Alexandre Texier from Columbus than PLD. I think he'll be a lot cheaper and I see a lot of upside in that player.
 

Maukkis

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Mar 16, 2016
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I promise this isn't how other NHL GMs view him.
I agree. That tells a lot about NHL GMs.

Do you think PLD's next contract will have negative value? It seems to be trending that way. What's he going to want?
His next RFA deal won't. Given what he can be - a safe bet for an all-rounded 2C - it would take something so dumb to bring him to negative value. We can't know what the future holds, though, so making predictions about his UFA deal is largely a waste of time.

For reference: I consider a player to have negative value when they are easily replaceable at a significantly lower cost. There might be Dubois replacements on offer, but certainly not at something like 5 AAV.
 
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