Speculation: Trade Deadline Options

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Alec Martinez is making Roman Josi money, and Martinez signed after Josi got his $4M per year contract.

I'd rather have a Travis Hamonic at less than $4M who can play in his own zone. Vlasic is a superior defenseman over Martinez and he's only earning $250K more than him. Hjalmarsson makes only $100K more than Martinez.

These are dmen who are significantly better in their end of the ice and are within the same ballpark in salary. And they play more minutes and are more heavily relied upon.

I liken what's happening with Martinez to what happened with Girardi in NY. When he came along at first, he had tons of promise and developed into a dependable middle pairing dman who can produce. But as his responsibilities and minutes increased, he struggled against tougher competition, which is exactly what's happening with Martinez.

I think we're seeing a similar situation with David Savard in Columbus. They're about your average sized dmen who struggle with decision making while under heavy pressure. Martinez excelled when he had a partner who could give him an easy access. Greene was that perfect compliment and at one point was very good at getting the puck out of his own end of the ice.

Now you have two guys who struggle to do just that in Martinez and Muzzin, two dmen who panic under pressure, who scramble behind their goal line and are constantly caught out of position due to egregious turnovers caused on their part.

Add the fact that Martinez can't stay healthy and hasn't appeared in a full season and the fact that he's turning 30, then you might realize why moving him may not be such a bad idea.

Do you guys realize that this team already has about $60M in committed contracts next season? And that's without the RFA contracts due for Toffoli, Pearson, Shore, Andreoff, LaDue and Gravel. They're stuck with a slew of terrible contracts. Some players will have to be dealt in order for them to have some cap flexibility. Martinez has to be one of those players.
 
Yes really. Its not who's exposed, it's who you can protect. For the team protecting 3 dmen then AMart would have to be sufficiently better than their current number 3 to give up picks and prospects and also lose their current number 3 (since AMart has to be protected). What team out there would do that? Same logic for a team protecting 4. Most likely any team protecting 4 means their #4 will be much better than AMart anyway.

Kings will work a deal with Vegas long before the actual draft since it will be in everyone's best interest to do so.

Again, that's easy. AMart would easily be the top 3 defenseman or top 4 if they went the eight skater route on the following teams just off the top of my head: Dallas, Arizona, Red Wings, Vancouver, Leafs and others.
 
In previous years, AMart was an excellent 3rd pairing defensemen providing offense on the power play. This year, for no reason I can understand, he's been paired with Muzzin and it has been disastrous. Either move Muzzin up with Doughty or move Martinez down. The two together make an explosive mix on defense.

Marty is a good 2nd pairing guy, just not with Muzzin.

He needs to play with a shutdown RHD. He's playing the right side but not doing it very well. If the King's trade LaDue that will hurt big time. If he's gone there better be someone special coming back.
 
a common albeit tired trend with our friend Ziggy :laugh:

Yeah, because what he posted clearly proved how great Martinez is defensively. I think some of you are failing to understand the principles of playing defense. You guys must still be hungover with the 2012 and 2014 Cup wins. Keep thinking back on that while some of us are trying to be progressive and think ahead as to how this team can get out of an already messy situation.
 
Again, that's easy. AMart would easily be the top 3 defenseman or top 4 if they went the eight skater route on the following teams just off the top of my head: Dallas, Arizona, Red Wings, Vancouver, Leafs and others.

Re-building teams don't give up picks and prospects for a 30-year old marginal top 4 dman.
 
Re-building teams don't give up picks and prospects for a 30-year old marginal top 4 dman.

Dallas and Vancouver are not rebuilding yet. The Leafs have already gone through the rebuilding process and are looking to be a playoff team. Getting Martinez for a 1st round pick would be huge for them. The Red Wings are a question mark.
 
Dallas and Vancouver are not rebuilding yet. The Leafs have already gone through the rebuilding process and are looking to be a playoff team. Getting Martinez for a 1st round pick would be huge for them. The Red Wings are a question mark.

:laugh:
 
Dallas and Vancouver are not rebuilding yet. The Leafs have already gone through the rebuilding process and are looking to be a playoff team. Getting Martinez for a 1st round pick would be huge for them. The Red Wings are a question mark.

Martinez isn't worth a 1st round pick. Then again, in a crappy draft year, some team may throw that aside for a signed dman over a pure rental like Shattenkirk.
 
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...100&teamid=14&type=goals&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC

Martinez with a team worst 3.03 GA.

Martinez with the second to worst GF% behind only Muzzin.

Martinez with the second worst PDO right alongside his partner.

So why aren't you using current stats? Why do some of you insist on living in the past? You know, what Dean Lombardi has been doing since 2014.

Overpaid and underperforming. We can see why he'd be such a hot trade chip. Should be easy to dump him off to some unsuspecting GM that can't look up stats, or lives on past youtube clips.
 
Martinez isn't worth a 1st round pick. Then again, in a crappy draft year, some team may throw that aside for a signed dman over a pure rental like Shattenkirk.

After the expansion draft perhaps. But D sellers will outnumber buyers big time beforehand.
 
The Mayor John Hoven
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For those asking about Paul LaDue's absence at practice this morning, he is still up w/ LA Kings (not sent down), nor was he traded. #chill
___________________________________________________

but since the Mayor is often wrong....or better stated, the things he imparts do not happen...
 
Martinez isn't worth a 1st round pick. Then again, in a crappy draft year, some team may throw that aside for a signed dman over a pure rental like Shattenkirk.

It took Taylor Hall to get Larsson. Teams give up 1st rounders for rentals. Martinez is signed long term for reasonable cap hit. He will easily get 1st round draft pick+
 
The Mayor John Hoven
‏@mayorNHL

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For those asking about Paul LaDue's absence at practice this morning, he is still up w/ LA Kings (not sent down), nor was he traded. #chill
___________________________________________________

but since the Mayor is often wrong....or better stated, the things he imparts do not happen...

Rosen also confirmed it in the comments section of the LAKingsinsider blog. Looks like no trade.
 
It took Taylor Hall to get Larsson. Teams give up 1st rounders for rentals. Martinez is signed long term for reasonable cap hit. He will easily get 1st round draft pick+

You're not getting this. DL isn't trading him as a rental and the dynamics of D men trades will be totally different due to the expansion draft. And AMart is not Larsson.
 
Alec Martinez is making Roman Josi money, and Martinez signed after Josi got his $4M per year contract.

I'd rather have a Travis Hamonic at less than $4M who can play in his own zone. Vlasic is a superior defenseman over Martinez and he's only earning $250K more than him. Hjalmarsson makes only $100K more than Martinez.


These are dmen who are significantly better in their end of the ice and are within the same ballpark in salary. And they play more minutes and are more heavily relied upon.

I liken what's happening with Martinez to what happened with Girardi in NY. When he came along at first, he had tons of promise and developed into a dependable middle pairing dman who can produce. But as his responsibilities and minutes increased, he struggled against tougher competition, which is exactly what's happening with Martinez.

I think we're seeing a similar situation with David Savard in Columbus. They're about your average sized dmen who struggle with decision making while under heavy pressure. Martinez excelled when he had a partner who could give him an easy access. Greene was that perfect compliment and at one point was very good at getting the puck out of his own end of the ice.

Now you have two guys who struggle to do just that in Martinez and Muzzin, two dmen who panic under pressure, who scramble behind their goal line and are constantly caught out of position due to egregious turnovers caused on their part.

Add the fact that Martinez can't stay healthy and hasn't appeared in a full season and the fact that he's turning 30, then you might realize why moving him may not be such a bad idea.

Do you guys realize that this team already has about $60M in committed contracts next season? And that's without the RFA contracts due for Toffoli, Pearson, Shore, Andreoff, LaDue and Gravel. They're stuck with a slew of terrible contracts. Some players will have to be dealt in order for them to have some cap flexibility. Martinez has to be one of those players.

Of course you would, those guys are all signed to bargain contracts in a different time as mostly RFAs. Alec Martinez signed for 6 years 4 million a year at age 27, buying what, 5 UFA years?

Josi--Was signed before he became a total monster. 7 year, 4 million a year deal posting ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME STATLINE AS MARTINEZ THAT YEAR in every way except worse defensively. Signed his contract at age 23, RFA for most of it.

Hamonic--age 22, signed his contract for 7 years

Hjalmarsson--probably a good comparable in terms of signing and role in terms of slotting. He's just a defensive version. Wouldn't call him a two-way guy like Martinez. Marty head and shoulders better offensively.

Vlasic--on a massive discount, one of the biggest bargains in the league. But even then, signed his contract before his rep grew. Imagine what he would get as a UFA now? Easily 7+.

Yes, Martinez has weaknesses. But unless it's an RFA like Forbort, we'd be paying his replacement just as much. He's more than a fair market value. I'd have little problem flat out moving him for something, but to suggest he has to go because he's bad and overpaid is folly.
 
You're not getting this. DL isn't trading him as a rental and the dynamics of D men trades will be totally different due to the expansion draft. And AMart is not Larsson.

You're not getting it. AMart is a legit top 4 defenseman on a team that is deep on D from top to bottom. Teams like Dallas, Vancouver, Leafs, Toronto, Arizona, have one of the worst defensive pairings in the NHL. They would gladly give a 1st round pick to secure someone like AMart. Again, the expansion draft will not derail such a trade because they can afford to protect AMart. Not every team is going to be losing a great defenseman in the expansion draft.

With all of this said, I am not favor of trading AMart unless we get a top 6 in return. But I just find it funny how some are advocating for exposing AMart in the expansion draft out of this ridiculous notion that Martinez will not even fetch a draft pick.
 
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...100&teamid=14&type=goals&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC

Martinez with a team worst 3.03 GA.

Martinez with the second to worst GF% behind only Muzzin.

Martinez with the second worst PDO right alongside his partner.

So why aren't you using current stats? Why do some of you insist on living in the past? You know, what Dean Lombardi has been doing since 2014.

I used stats from the last two years to show you this year is the outlier rather than the last two. You said he's not a top 4 dman, I showed you he is, and that he's underperforming this year rather than terrible. No one said he's not struggling this year, you're inventing something to argue against. Don't ask for facts then call it living in the past. You're being unreasonable and borderline lunatic right now. But hey, at least you used evidence for once...even though you're ignoring the rest of it.
 
You're not getting it. AMart is a legit top 4 defenseman on a team that is deep on D from top to bottom. Teams like Dallas, Vancouver, Leafs, Toronto, Arizona, have one of the worst defensive pairings in the NHL. They would gladly give a 1st round pick to secure someone like AMart. Again, the expansion draft will not derail such a trade because they can afford to protect AMart. Not every team is going to be losing a great defenseman in the expansion draft.

With all of this said, I am not favor of trading AMart unless we get a top 6 in return. But I just find it funny how some are advocating for exposing AMart in the expansion draft out of this ridiculous notion that Martinez will not even fetch a draft pick.

No they won't. Sellers will outnumber buyers by a lot. Sellers will get low-balled. It sucks, but that's what will happen.
 
Sorry for not living in the past. I know a lot of you seem to be hung up on that. You guys are married to players and this silly idea that they are only going through some rough patches while your heads have been buried in the sand since 2014.

Our concerns have grown and become more vocal since that season. Then you have the passive types who brush it off thinking that this team is just as good as they were in the past, just clinging onto false hope while everyone else notices that something is very wrong with this team.

The only lunacy here is that a gullible bunch still persists that this team can still contend. As if your loyalty and fandom is measured by how positive you remain. I see this inane comments made by defensive posters like yourself who challenge one's credibility as a fan. How about you step back and try thinking as an investor. If an individual invests time and money for a product, there is an expectation for what standard should be delivered when you are paying for that product.

I'm sorry I don't have low standards like the ostriches you line up to blindly defend every poor performing athlete. Yet here we have some fan calling other fans unreasonable and borderline lunatic. I turn around and use the same stats you provided, yet you go ahead and spin it in another direction. What argument am I inventing when the cold hard numbers prove just how disastrous he has been? Like I said before, you're full of yourself.
 
Sorry for not living in the past. I know a lot of you seem to be hung up on that. You guys are married to players and this silly idea that they are only going through some rough patches while your heads have been buried in the sand since 2014.

Our concerns have grown and become more vocal since that season. Then you have the passive types who brush it off thinking that this team is just as good as they were in the past, just clinging onto false hope while everyone else notices that something is very wrong with this team.

The only lunacy here is that a gullible bunch still persists that this team can still contend. As if your loyalty and fandom is measured by how positive you remain. I see this inane comments made by defensive posters like yourself who challenge one's credibility as a fan. How about you step back and try thinking as an investor. If an individual invests time and money for a product, there is an expectation for what standard should be delivered when you are paying for that product.

I'm sorry I don't have low standards like the ostriches you line up to blindly defend every poor performing athlete. Yet here we have some fan calling other fans unreasonable and borderline lunatic. I turn around and use the same stats you provided, yet you go ahead and spin it in another direction. What argument am I inventing when the cold hard numbers prove just how disastrous he has been? Like I said before, you're full of yourself.

I guess my expectations are set up more from hundreds of games than by 50. If you want to think these last 50 games by Martinez are the 'real' Martinez (and Muzzin) versus what we've seen for literally years and years before, while admitting out of the other side of your mouth that they're bad together, that's up to you.

You asked what made him a top four defensemen, I provided evidence; you laughed that evidence off because it's not convenient to your narrative and doubled down on 'but this season.'

Edit: here, I'll even provide you some bonus coverage, since it's from this season and thus valid to you:

Martinez and Muzzin together:
614:11 TOI
2.25 GF60
3.71 GA60
37.7 GF%
59.59 CF60
50.51 CA60
54.1 CF%

Martinez away from Muzzin?
356:30 TOI
1.85 GF60
1.85 GA60 -- Best in the top 4
50.0 GF%
60.76 GF60
50.66 CA60
54.5 CF%

It's almost as if there's an explanation that's not "martinez is terrible, overpaid, and not a top-4 dman"

So, just like last time, "full of yourself" means can provide evidence from the eye test and context instead of ranting and raving unsupportable opinions and moving the goalposts, so I'll take it. Thanks ;)

No, being pessimistic doesn't make you a bad fan, nor does blind optimism make you a good fan. But ignorance...
 
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I guess my expectations are set up more from hundreds of games than by 50. If you want to think these last 50 games by Martinez are the 'real' Martinez (and Muzzin) versus what we've seen for literally years and years before, while admitting out of the other side of your mouth that they're bad together, that's up to you.

You asked what made him a top four defensemen, I provided evidence; you laughed that evidence off because it's not convenient to your narrative and doubled down on 'but this season.'

Martinez hasn't appeared in hundreds of games as a top 4 defenseman.

His average ice time prior to Voynov's departure was 15-16 minutes. He was sheltered. His ice time increased by 4 minutes after Voynov's departure. These aren't alternative facts. He missed a majority of the 2014-15 season and missed the last stretch of games and the playoffs (save for one playoff game appearance) in 2015-16.

I laughed at the silly stats because those numbers also show that Brayden McNabb is a top pairing defenseman. Go ahead, let's see you spin that as well.

Now it's 2016-17 and he has been one of the worst performers on the roster. Go ahead and sugarcoat and cling to the past all you want, his play this season can be described in one word: disastrous.

Here is something that fails to resonate with you: HE IS NOT VERY GOOD DEFENSIVELY. But go ahead, give me more numbers that doesn't prove any point about his defensive prowess.
 
Martinez hasn't appeared in hundreds of games as a top 4 defenseman.

His average ice time prior to Voynov's departure was 15-16 minutes. He was sheltered. His ice time increased by 4 minutes after Voynov's departure. These aren't alternative facts. He missed a majority of the 2014-15 season and missed the last stretch of games and the playoffs (save for one playoff game appearance) in 2015-16.

No, of course he wasn't, not trying to suggest otherwise--simply pointing out that his play has been the same on every situation he's been in, he's the skater-driver on the pairing and he's handled a number of situations and partners. I used 2014/15 to the end of 2016 because that's the time period he was given additional responsibility around the lineup. Those numbers show he has handled it very well compared to 2nd pairing d-men around the league and he's done it in all situations, with several partners, mostly while playing on his wrong side. Also he played 56 games in 2015, so calling it a majority is either intentionally dishonest or just misleading rhetoric; you can stop with that any time you want because that's exactly why I'm going after you so hard, you make statements you cannot support.

I laughed at the silly stats because those numbers also show that Brayden McNabb is a top pairing defenseman. Go ahead, let's see you spin that as well.

I already went over this in a previous post. It's easily explainable. Over those two years, McNabb played the overwhelming majority of his 2300 minutes with Drew Doughty. With Drew, his GF% is 61.7%. He also had the cushiest zone starts of any d-man that wasn't McBain. AWAY from DOughty those years, his GF% plummets to 53.7% overall. The next d-man he's played the most with is 400 minutes with Matt Greene and his gf% there is 46.2%

You saw the above splits with Martinez from this year alone. In previous years, he made every d-man he played with better.

Now it's 2016-17 and he has been one of the worst performers on the roster. Go ahead and sugarcoat and cling to the past all you want, his play this season can be described in one word: disastrous.

Again, no one is arguing otherwise. But see above.

Here is something that fails to resonate with you: HE IS NOT VERY GOOD DEFENSIVELY. But go ahead, give me more numbers that doesn't prove any point about his defensive prowess.

NEver claimed he was a defensive monster. Out of the top-4, he's pretty clearly the 'worst' defensively, but he's still very clearly above average, and is a monster play driver and good offensive defenseman that can drive a second pairing given a partner who isn't drunk driving himself. Keep in mind he's done all this while being just about the only regular d-man not spending huge minutes with Doughty at all.

Again, want me to compare to someone else around the league who you think is a GREAT #4?
 
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