GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - Training camp approaches

[hockeywiz542]

 

[ULF_55]

LOL the failed logic here is the assumption that spending cash is NOT asset. The Leafs are a playoff team and cap space is the form of circulation to make it happen. For instance, if we were rebuilding the logic is different as cap is usually abundant and assets are sparce. In this case, cap is an asset and we freed up Barrie for Brodie. Economics 101 - opportunity cost of signing Barrie impedes Brodie move.

The best combination was selected.

Additionally you don't recover Cap space for suspended players.

 

[nuck]

LOL the failed logic here is the assumption that spending cash is NOT asset. The Leafs are a playoff team and cap space is the form of circulation to make it happen. For instance, if we were rebuilding the logic is different as cap is usually abundant and assets are sparce. In this case, cap is an asset and we freed up Barrie for Brodie. Economics 101 - opportunity cost of signing Barrie impedes Brodie move.

The best combination was selected.

I'm not quite following your logic. Barrie was not worth re-signing because he didn't do the job. That doesn't make it a good move to acquire him in the first place. It was a bad trade. It could have been a pretty good trade if they had flipped him for an asset before the season or even at the deadline but they kept him until he did nothing in the playoffs and walked. He should have been freed up without playing a game for the Leafs. Saying Barrie somehow begat Brodie is misleading. He wasn't swapped for TJ any more than he would have been swapped for Pietrangelo if the Leafs had made that signing instead. In the absence of Brodie being available Barrie still wasn't returning any more than Ceci was. It was a failed experiment and they would have just ended up with Tanev or someone else. Trading a valuable asset for a player who you replace with a UFA right away is basically flushing the original asset for nothing. Re-signing players like Ceci and Barrie who don't make the club better isn't holding value or winning a trade, its just doubling down on a mistake and hoping for a different result. There was no indication Dubas had any intention of going down that road. He tried something, didn't work out how he wanted so he moved on.

If they had dealt Kadri for magic beans in 19-20 they would still have Brodie in 20-21 independently of Barrie, Kadri, or the beans. Your statement only makes sense if Barrie was a pretty good player who they were intending to bring back but a clear upgrade became available. If so, we disagree on that. They did end up with a better combination than either of the two offered but only because Calgary went with Tanev over Brodie. The two acquisitions a year apart are unconnected except that there was a space in the lineup where TB had once been. Perhaps some deals are done "in conjunction" but this wouldn't be one of them. Just a coincidence they were able to sign a player they earlier tried to trade for.

 

[nuck]

Additionally you don't recover Cap space for suspended players.

To be clear Ulf I was fine with Kadri being dealt based on his lack of control in important games and I'm frankly stunned that he did it again for the Avs. Even though I didn't think they needed either of the players they got, the value was pretty fair and there was obviously a chance Barrie shoots the lights out.

 

[Havoc]

Kadri just got suspended 8 games in his last playoff appearance. I think that ends putting much weight into that trade. Being unreliable is a factor in being flipped in the first place and he just confirmed that Leafs management was right. This is facts, not my opinion.

Barrie was one of the most sought after offensive d-men on the market at the time and on top of that we got Kerfoot. Barrie was a flop show but at least we have a GM willing to make moves to fix our defence. No other GM before him gave two shits about fixing the D. Brodie, Muzzin , Barrie (pre flop)...these are names you want your GM to gamble on. 2/3 not bad.

 

[supermann_98]

its been really hard to control myself to not go and troll the F outta the montreal fans on their board. THIS IS TOO HARD!

Please remember our team choking to theirs before you decide that’s the route you wanna take, they have the high ground still at this point.

saying that tho this is a hilarious troll by Carolina and their Twitter feed, with the Uno reverse card, the French language introduction, the $20 signing bonus … it’s absolutely classic

 

[ULF_55]

I'm not quite following your logic. Barrie was not worth re-signing because he didn't do the job. That doesn't make it a good move to acquire him in the first place. It was a bad trade. It could have been a pretty good trade if they had flipped him for an asset before the season or even at the deadline but they kept him until he did nothing in the playoffs and walked. He should have been freed up without playing a game for the Leafs. Saying Barrie somehow begat Brodie is misleading. He wasn't swapped for TJ any more than he would have been swapped for Pietrangelo if the Leafs had made that signing instead. In the absence of Brodie being available Barrie still wasn't returning any more than Ceci was. It was a failed experiment and they would have just ended up with Tanev or someone else. Trading a valuable asset for a player who you replace with a UFA right away is basically flushing the original asset for nothing. Re-signing players like Ceci and Barrie who don't make the club better isn't holding value or winning a trade, its just doubling down on a mistake and hoping for a different result. There was no indication Dubas had any intention of going down that road. He tried something, didn't work out how he wanted so he moved on.

If they had dealt Kadri for magic beans in 19-20 they would still have Brodie in 20-21 independently of Barrie, Kadri, or the beans. Your statement only makes sense if Barrie was a pretty good player who they were intending to bring back but a clear upgrade became available. If so, we disagree on that. They did end up with a better combination than either of the two offered but only because Calgary went with Tanev over Brodie. The two acquisitions a year apart are unconnected except that there was a space in the lineup where TB had once been. Perhaps some deals are done "in conjunction" but this wouldn't be one of them. Just a coincidence they were able to sign a player they earlier tried to trade for.

Not sure I'd want that wingnut back in a Leafs uniform.

He's one of the dumbest players in the league.

 

[Stephen]

I'm not quite following your logic. Barrie was not worth re-signing because he didn't do the job. That doesn't make it a good move to acquire him in the first place. It was a bad trade. It could have been a pretty good trade if they had flipped him for an asset before the season or even at the deadline but they kept him until he did nothing in the playoffs and walked. He should have been freed up without playing a game for the Leafs. Saying Barrie somehow begat Brodie is misleading. He wasn't swapped for TJ any more than he would have been swapped for Pietrangelo if the Leafs had made that signing instead. In the absence of Brodie being available Barrie still wasn't returning any more than Ceci was. It was a failed experiment and they would have just ended up with Tanev or someone else. Trading a valuable asset for a player who you replace with a UFA right away is basically flushing the original asset for nothing. Re-signing players like Ceci and Barrie who don't make the club better isn't holding value or winning a trade, its just doubling down on a mistake and hoping for a different result. There was no indication Dubas had any intention of going down that road. He tried something, didn't work out how he wanted so he moved on.

If they had dealt Kadri for magic beans in 19-20 they would still have Brodie in 20-21 independently of Barrie, Kadri, or the beans. Your statement only makes sense if Barrie was a pretty good player who they were intending to bring back but a clear upgrade became available. If so, we disagree on that. They did end up with a better combination than either of the two offered but only because Calgary went with Tanev over Brodie. The two acquisitions a year apart are unconnected except that there was a space in the lineup where TB had once been. Perhaps some deals are done "in conjunction" but this wouldn't be one of them. Just a coincidence they were able to sign a player they earlier tried to trade for.

The fact that the Leafs originally targeted a Kadri for Brodie trade and ended up with their man at a $500,000 cap difference with a one year Barrie interlude makes the whole chain of asset management/circulation within a flat cap somewhat interconnected, but it obviously isn't a 1-1 relationship with Kerfoot's money involved.

That said, the whole exercise does illustrate the importance of cap space itself in a cap system that isn't growing. You can lose any hockey deal but if you can clear the decks of money and go out and make a good UFA signing with the money saved, the asset in is just as important as what you got back in trade.

I didn't like Kadri for Barrie but Brodie smooths things over a lot.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Took me a long time to get over the Kessel for 2 firsts and a second or Kordic for Courtnall. Not happy with the Kadri or Foligno trades but they pail in comparison to those two deals. Although we lost the trades they don't bother me that much.

Why would you be unhappy with the Kadri-kerfoot trade?
We got the younger cheaper player who’s more effective when it matters and has more term on his deal. the fact we got a top 4D rental out of it as well was a great move by management. Sometimes things don’t work out, and we were quickly able to pivot from Barrie to Brodie seamlessly

 

[ToneDog]

Why would you be unhappy with the Kadri-kerfoot trade?
We got the younger cheaper player who’s more effective when it matters and has more term on his deal. the fact we got a top 4D rental out of it as well was a great move by management. Sometimes things don’t work out, and we were quickly able to pivot from Barrie to Brodie seamlessly

You traded one of your biggest trade chips who supposedly bled blue and white for a soft #3C and one year of Barrie. To make matters worse Barrie was a complete failure and not the type of dman we needed. Luckily he walked and we signed Brodie. I'd gladly undo that deal if we could and then sign Brodie

 

[ToneDog]

The fact that the Leafs originally targeted a Kadri for Brodie trade and ended up with their man at a $500,000 cap difference with a one year Barrie interlude makes the whole chain of asset management/circulation within a flat cap somewhat interconnected, but it obviously isn't a 1-1 relationship with Kerfoot's money involved.

That said, the whole exercise does illustrate the importance of cap space itself in a cap system that isn't growing. You can lose any hockey deal but if you can clear the decks of money and go out and make a good UFA signing with the money saved, the asset in is just as important as what you got back in trade.

I didn't like Kadri for Barrie but Brodie smooths things over a lot.

Cap space is king. Canes were able to troll the Habs because the had cap space. Even so, Brodie smooths things over but imagine Kadri and Brodie over Kerfoot and Brodie. Just put Kadri on the wing with Tavares and Marner.

 

[nuck]

The fact that the Leafs originally targeted a Kadri for Brodie trade and ended up with their man at a $500,000 cap difference with a one year Barrie interlude makes the whole chain of asset management/circulation within a flat cap somewhat interconnected, but it obviously isn't a 1-1 relationship with Kerfoot's money involved.

That said, the whole exercise does illustrate the importance of cap space itself in a cap system that isn't growing. You can lose any hockey deal but if you can clear the decks of money and go out and make a good UFA signing with the money saved, the asset in is just as important as what you got back in trade.

I didn't like Kadri for Barrie but Brodie smooths things over a lot.

The return for Kadri wasn't too bad when you consider the retention. Imagine what they might have received for a $2.75M Barrie on the trade market that summer? And they required two for one, for a D plus a center plus the money retained. What does Dubas get back in a Kadri for straight up best value deal? Its too bad they didn't know that summer what they had in Holl and had just a little more cap space.

 

[Stephen]

The return for Kadri wasn't too bad when you consider the retention. Imagine what they might have received for a $2.75M Barrie on the trade market that summer? And they required two for one, for a D plus a center plus the money retained. What does Dubas get back in a Kadri for straight up best value deal? Its too bad they didn't know that summer what they had in Holl and had just a little more cap space.

That scenario could have played out better if Kadri was traded for a futures package, let’s say something like Pacioretty for Suzuki type return with minimal cap burden and then the Leafs went out and signed Brodie that same offseason. That would have been your perfect pivot. As it happened, it was a little awkward and didn’t put them into serious contention, but they did shift forward depth and money to defensive strength in the end at a similar age and cap hit. So no real complains there.

 

[LeafSteel]

Cap space is king. Canes were able to troll the Habs because the had cap space. Even so, Brodie smooths things over but imagine Kadri and Brodie over Kerfoot and Brodie. Just put Kadri on the wing with Tavares and Marner.

This man gets it....

Barrie was never going to succeed here. Wrong type of player, didn't fit what we needed, at the cost of one of our best trade chips in Kadri.

Headcase? Sure, but a very good, engaged player when his head was screwed on right, on a great contract with term, at a very important C slot who could easily play top 6 across the league.

We ended up with the better player in Brodie, but Kadri would fit a lot better with our current team as constructed, and I wouldn't have had to spend a season yelling at the stupid $#it Barrie would do during his 1 season too long tenure in Toronto.

Always hated that guy, and always will and I distinctly remember banging my head when we traded for him....

 

[tmlms13]

its been really hard to control myself to not go and troll the F outta the montreal fans on their board. THIS IS TOO HARD!

Instead of trolling them for the offer sheet thing point out that the 5 draft picks after KK were

#4 Brady Tkachuk
#5 Barrett Hayton
#6 Filip Zadina
#7 Quinn Hughes
#8 Adam Boqvist

 

[Dekes For Days]

You traded one of your biggest trade chips who supposedly bled blue and white for a soft #3C and one year of Barrie.

Toronto needed a cheap top-4 defenseman, and somebody to replace Kadri if he was traded. Barrie was considered a quality player at the time, and he was coming off a good season and playoffs. They got him for 50% retained. They also received a younger, cheaper 3rd line center with more term. I think you're exaggerating the value of a 50 point center coming off a down year and 2 consecutive playoff suspensions, if you think the deal was bad.

Cap space is king. Canes were able to troll the Habs because the had cap space.

Carolina was able to troll the Habs (and potentially themselves) because they let an elite defenseman walk for nothing, for the record.

 

[ToneDog]

Toronto needed a cheap top-4 defenseman, and somebody to replace Kadri if he was traded. Barrie was considered a quality player at the time, and he was coming off a good season and playoffs. They got him for 50% retained. They also received a younger, cheaper 3rd line center with more term. I think you're exaggerating the value of a 50 point center coming off a down year and 2 consecutive playoff suspensions, if you think the deal was bad.

Carolina was able to troll the Habs (and potentially themselves) because they let an elite defenseman walk for nothing, for the record.

I get the reasoning behind the Kadri trade but at the end of the day is was a swing and a miss if you look at it objectively.

Who cares how you acquire the cap space? We let our #1 LWer go for nothing and I do see any cap space to pay Rielly let alone troll the Habs. Either way I was not taking a shot at the Leafs when I said cap space is king, and you probably agree.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I get the reasoning behind the Kadri trade but at the end of the day is was a swing and a miss if you look at it objectively.

Not really any reason to see it as a miss. The difference between Kadri and Kerfoot is exaggerated because something something raw points, ignoring that Kadri gets tons of PP time on a stacked unit, while Kerfoot's special teams utilization is more centered around the PK. We fulfilled our objective for the trade, and if we're going to use hindsight, Kadri getting suspended in the playoffs again pretty much single-handedly justified the trade.

Who cares how you acquire the cap space?

That's pretty important. Carolina didn't just "have" cap space lying around. They had some extra cap space because they let their elite defenseman walk, and then they wasted that cap space on a personal vendetta, potentially screwing over their own team. The whole thing is hilarious, but Dubas would be ripped to pieces if he did this.

We let our #1 LWer go for nothing

Hyman is not a first liner, and he's not close to the player Hamilton is. But yes, players walking in UFA is pretty normal.

 

[justashadowof]

Delicious tit for tat by Carolina. Shame they couldn't do it with more of a sure thing talent.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Delicious tit for tat by Carolina. Shame they couldn't do it with more of a sure thing talent.

Icing on the cake would be Montreal matching and then Carolina takes a run at Suzuki next year.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Icing on the cake would be Montreal matching and then Carolina takes a run at Suzuki next year.

Honestly I think they might be playing a bit of chess on this one.

Montreal as it stands as $12 mill in cap space projected for next year. If Montreal matches, that puts their cap situation in further limbo. They'll have to qualify Kotkaniemi, trade him, or lose him for free. Qualifying him will be pricey.

In the meantime the Canes can sit in the weeds as they sort that out and if he's qualified, the Canes can jump in with a big offer sheet at a reasonable amount. If they don't, they can offer sheet Suzuki for more.

 

[All Mod Cons]

The Kadri deal always faces funny scrutiny with little context by some posters.. Brodie + Jankowski was the rumored deal for Kadri (he rejected trade to CGY). We ended up getting Barrie + Kerfoot then let Barrie walk and signed Brodie. It looks like we ended up getting the best possible mix of Brodie + Kerfoot in the end.

Foligno was a deadline deal.. people need to stop the tears.

People are still torn up about a 2nd for Boyle and Plekanec.

This will take some time.

 

[Mugzy97]

You traded one of your biggest trade chips who supposedly bled blue and white for a soft #3C and one year of Barrie. To make matters worse Barrie was a complete failure and not the type of dman we needed. Luckily he walked and we signed Brodie. I'd gladly undo that deal if we could and then sign Brodie

I remember questioning the Kadri trade at the time, but since then he completely fell off. He’s not the player he used to be. We got rid of him at the perfect time.

 

[CupcakeSprinkles]

People are still torn up about a 2nd for Boyle and Plekanec.

This will take some time.

True same crowd complaining about Hutton for a 5th..

 

[ULF_55]

I get the reasoning behind the Kadri trade but at the end of the day is was a swing and a miss if you look at it objectively.

Who cares how you acquire the cap space? We let our #1 LWer go for nothing and I do see any cap space to pay Rielly let alone troll the Habs. Either way I was not taking a shot at the Leafs when I said cap space is king, and you probably agree.

I disagree it was a swing and miss ... it was a single.

Folignol was a swing and miss.

Tavares injury didn't help, it took away any opportunity for Folignol to play as a healthy player in the 2nd. round of a pretend NHL post season.