GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 PART VI

[dubplatepressure]

It's almost like we have a guy named Justin Holl that does the same thing.

If they're arguably the same level of defensive effectiveness, I always take Mayfield because he hits and fights. Other than a couple of random fights for Holl, I cannot recall a single instance of him throwing a big hit.

 

[ACC1224]

It's almost like we have a guy named Justin Holl that does the same thing.

Almost isn't good enough

 

[GrizzLeaf]

I'm gonna go out on limb and say any defenseman on the Leafs or any we aquire will be shit on the moment they play second pairing minutes.

It's a tough gig. Those d-men will frequently get owned because they get all the tough assignments.

As a fan base we've been crapping all over Holl even when he plays well. Muzzin got plenty of hate at times. Hell, even Rielly took alot of flak back when he played second pairing minutes back in the day.

If you want to look at comparables, look at other team's second pair dmen, not top 2 on each team.

Holl/Muzzin are fine. They got owned once in a while by top players or even middling players. But it's the nature of how tough the grind is. They're playing the toughest minutes of anyone else on the team, each and every game.

Let's be realistic. They are both legit second pair dmen on any team. The Leafs are a legit top team, have won 6 in a row. That's not despite Holl, it's because he usually does what needs to be done.

They can be improved on but it will cost. I want to see a legit top defensive dman come in but not sure how Dubas will swing it.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

We have insurance already. Dermott is an experienced versatile quality bottom pair+ dman himself.

Rookies do play in the playoffs. They don't just get benched.

If Leafs have intentions of a playoff run this year then none of Lily, Dermy or Sandin should be playing .. we can't afford Sandin to lose us 2 more games due to foot speed problems and Dermy with his hesitations' and giveaways to lose us another game .. 3 games lost last year due to kids learning to piss straight .. then da cue da graw with Soup f*up in game 7 .. playoffs are for VETS especially on DEFENSE and TENDING where most games are won and lost .. we need 2 more vet defensive dmen and likely go with vet Mrazek for a run

 

[Voodoo Child]

I'm gonna go out on limb and say any defenseman on the Leafs or any we aquire will be shit on the moment they play second pairing minutes.

Holl/Muzzin are fine. They got owned once in a while by top players or even middling players. But it's the nature of how tough the grind is. They're playing the toughest minutes of anyone else on the team, each and every game.

I agree in spirit but I gotta counsel.

Muzzin is a good 4 - he was a 2 when the Leafs got him but he’s been injured, he’s lost a lot of his speed and he doesn’t blast it from the point anymore, just throws in babby soft wristers right into the crest or glove.

Holl can eat some big minutes when he needs to and he has been much better lately, but he’s not playing on the second pair full time if your team is healthy or good.

Dermott hasn’t been Lebda bad but every year I see him and I ask myself ‘where is the growth?’

Mo and Brodie is a great first pair, Muzzin and Holl is a hold until Sandin or Liljegren or both are ready to face harder minutes.

 

[zeke]

If Leafs have intentions of a playoff run this year then none of Lily, Dermy or Sandin should be playing .. we can't afford Sandin to lose us 2 more games due to foot speed problems and Dermy with his hesitations' and giveaways to lose us another game .. 3 games lost last year due to kids learning to piss straight .. then da cue da graw with Soup f*up in game 7 .. playoffs are for VETS especially on DEFENSE and TENDING where most games are won and lost .. we need 2 more vet defensive dmen and likely go with vet Mrazek for a run

They are some of the best young dmen in hockey and give us some of the best defensive depth in hockey.

Absolutely dominant bottom pair play, which is no surprise given both are clear top 4 talents.

Only in Toronto would anyone ever consider kids playing this well in depth roles to be a weakness.

 

[zeke]

If they're arguably the same level of defensive effectiveness, I always take Mayfield because he hits and fights. Other than a couple of random fights for Holl, I cannot recall a single instance of him throwing a big hit.

 

[dubplatepressure]

hah - nice. I stand corrected. Here's another one

Anyway, point is he really doesn't do this often.

 

[GrizzLeaf]

I agree in spirit but I gotta counsel.

Muzzin is a good 4 - he was a 2 when the Leafs got him but he’s been injured, he’s lost a lot of his speed and he doesn’t blast it from the point anymore, just throws in babby soft wristers right into the crest or glove.

Holl can eat some big minutes when he needs to and he has been much better lately, but he’s not playing on the second pair full time if your team is healthy or good.

Dermott hasn’t been Lebda bad but every year I see him and I ask myself ‘where is the growth?’

Mo and Brodie is a great first pair, Muzzin and Holl is a hold until Sandin or Liljegren or both are ready to face harder minutes.

I think the realistic view is to get a dman or two for bottom pairing. The Leafs need stability back there for a playoff run.

Ideally, a true shutdown second pair dman is the wish. But realistically, we'll probably see Dubas shore up the bottom pair

 

[CupcakeSprinkles]

If they're arguably the same level of defensive effectiveness, I always take Mayfield because he hits and fights. Other than a couple of random fights for Holl, I cannot recall a single instance of him throwing a big hit.

It’s not exactly an upgrade for the potential price paid (1st)

 

[dubplatepressure]

It’s not exactly an upgrade for the potential price paid (1st)

That's arguable in a rough playoff series. A Mayfield on the blue line could have a real impact IMO.

 

[Voodoo Child]

I think the realistic view is to get a dman or two for bottom pairing. The Leafs need stability back there for a playoff run.

Ideally, a true shutdown second pair dman is the wish. But realistically, we'll probably see Dubas shore up the bottom pair

Yeah, which is why I’m on the Chariot, Petry and Chychrun train, sort of.

But there’s no way in hell I want a 1st given up for Chariot or Petry - Chariot is the type of D the Leafs could use but there’s no reality where a physical #5 D is worth a 1st. Is Holl worth a 1st? No, he’s probably worth a middling 2nd, and would be worth much less if he shot left. Chariot is maybe 10-15% better than he is.

Petry also would be a longer term thing and Montreal needs to take money and retain. Thankfully he’s been bad this year, as if he’s the only one, and his value is low. Wash the Montreal stink off of him and he’s fine, I’ll give them Ritchie, 2023 4th and the C-level prospect of their choosing for Petry @ 4 and then move A few other guys to get Jackie his 6.

Chych is obviously the youngest, the best, and has the best deal even if he doesn’t really address a need (ship Muzzin in the summer?). It’d be nice to get him without parting with Sandin or Liljegren, I’d do Dermott, Ritchie, Niemela, Robertson and a package of picks for Chychrun with a small add.

 

[The Podium]

I feel like this team needs another Brodie more than another Muzzin. Someone who is safe and reliable defensively but can also skate and move the puck up ice

 

[MatthewNylander]

I feel like this team needs another Brodie more than another Muzzin. Someone who is safe and reliable defensively but can also skate and move the puck up ice

Chychrun fills that well imo

I really have my heart set on Olesiak ( likely not available ) but I think he would be the perfect fit on this team.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I am actually shocked how people are so critical of Spezz and Simmonds.

Everyone entitled to their own opinions, and I can totally respect someone would have a different opinion then mine. Maybe I am the blind one.

To me this is how I see them:

They just make a combined 1.65M and they provide much more than their stats would suggest. Leadership, toughness, and experience to name a few.

They never cost us games, and often times tip the scales in our favor when they are on. Even if that is less frequent than the games they are not.

We have a top heavy approach to our salary cap. This is unfortunately the side effect of having that type of cap construction. We benefit massively with he superstar talent at the top, and we roll the dice with budget players everywhere else. Those 2 have provided us much more than their salary's dictate, and again, most importantly they hardly ever cost us games. Which with the way our team is built, that is all we really need out of a 4th line.

As I posted yesterday, they have positive metrics when playing with one another 5v5, and they've had maybe 5-6 different wingers round out their line already this year.

Maybe it's just me comparing that 4th line duo with previous year's 4th lines and how irrelevant those lines were for us. It's obviously not a very high bar to exceed. But anytime your mainstay's on the 4th line have positive metrics I don't see any reason to be critical.

What exactly is a fair expectation of a 4th line? to me they have been largely great. They've had some rough stretches no doubt, but name me a 4th line in the NHL that doesn't?

 

[thusk]

Chychrun fills that well imo

I really have my heart set on Olesiak ( likely not available ) but I think he would be the perfect fit on this team.

Chychrun is closer of morgan rielly than brodie...

 

[ShaneFalco]

Have the Oilers now surpassed Buffalo in the dumpster-fire ratings?

 

[budzz]

I am actually shocked how people are so critical of Spezz and Simmonds.

Everyone entitled to their own opinions, and I can totally respect someone would have a different opinion then mine. Maybe I am the blind one.

To me this is how I see them:

They just make a combined 1.65M and they provide much more than their stats would suggest. Leadership, toughness, and experience to name a few.

They never cost us games, and often times tip the scales in our favor when they are on. Even if that is less frequent than the games they are not.

We have a top heavy approach to our salary cap. This is unfortunately the side effect of having that type of cap construction. We benefit massively with he superstar talent at the top, and we roll the dice with budget players everywhere else. Those 2 have provided us much more than their salary's dictate, and again, most importantly they hardly ever cost us games. Which with the way our team is built, that is all we really need out of a 4th line.

As I posted yesterday, they have positive metrics when playing with one another 5v5, and they've had maybe 5-6 different wingers round out their line already this year.

Maybe it's just me comparing that 4th line duo with previous year's 4th lines and how irrelevant those lines were for us. It's obviously not a very high bar to exceed. But anytime your mainstay's on the 4th line have positive metrics I don't see any reason to be critical.

What exactly is a fair expectation of a 4th line? to me they have been largely great. They've had some rough stretches no doubt, but name me a 4th line in the NHL that doesn't?

Agree with this totally. I have no problem with those 2 on the 4th line at all. The fact they were both prolific scorers back in the day doesn't hurt... they still have that DNA in them and can pop a few. They rarely drag us down when on the ice, and often have great shifts in the o zone.How many other teams can throw a 4th liner on the PP and he excels? Not too many. And how many other teams have a guy that wants to mess with Simmonds? Not many again. Actually just checked and surprised to see Spezza has 9 goals already this year. May be the best bargain in Hockey.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

They are some of the best young dmen in hockey and give us some of the best defensive depth in hockey.

Absolutely dominant bottom pair play, which is no surprise given both are clear top 4 talents.

Only in Toronto would anyone ever consider kids playing this well in depth roles to be a weakness.

Regular season hockey is fine no one cares about it .. but playoffs is different hockey and reffed different .. size and speed much more important

 

[1specter]

They are some of the best young dmen in hockey and give us some of the best defensive depth in hockey.

Absolutely dominant bottom pair play, which is no surprise given both are clear top 4 talents.

Only in Toronto would anyone ever consider kids playing this well in depth roles to be a weakness.

This team has not earned the benefit of the doubt, and there is value in guys like Bogosian and Schenn. If there wasn't, why the hell were they playing for Tampa over the last two years? Why did your boy Dubas seek out Bogosian and even tried to bring him back?

Plenty of kids look good in sheltered roles. We've seen this time and time again. Even Connor Carrick and Ozhiganov had great numbers in a bottom pairing role. How are they doing now?

Or Dermott who has posted 'elite' underlying numbers for numerous years but can't seem to find his way into a top 4 role, under two different coaches including the guy that developed him on the Marlies.

I love stats but they don't capture everything and the impact of context/usage is still a major weakness in them.

 

[zeke]

Regular season hockey is fine no one cares about it .. but playoffs is different hockey and reffed different .. size and speed much more important

Bogo allowed more goals per ice time in the playoffs last year than any other Leafs dman, even while getting the easiest matchups

 

[zeke]

This team has not earned the benefit of the doubt, and there is value in guys like Bogosian and Schenn. If there wasn't, why the hell were they playing for Tampa over the last two years? Why did your boy Dubas seek out Bogosian and even tried to bring him back?

Plenty of kids look good in sheltered roles. We've seen this time and time again. Even Connor Carrick and Ozhiganov had great numbers in a bottom pairing role. How are they doing now?

Or Dermott who has posted 'elite' underlying numbers for numerous years but can't seem to find his way into a top 4 role, under two different coaches including the guy that developed him on the Marlies.

I love stats but they don't capture everything and the impact of context/usage is still a major weakness in them.

Our team has been much better this year thanks to playing the kids over stiffs like Bogo.

 

[Ashdown2]

Bogo allowed more goals per ice time in the playoffs last year than any other Leafs dman, even while getting the easiest matchups

exactly ... give me a complete dman every single time. . ... not a usless 1 dim guy that can "clear the front of the net" and is a complete liability in every other aspect of the game.

 

[1specter]

Bogo allowed more goals per ice time in the playoffs last year than any other Leafs dman, even while getting the easiest matchups

Why do you switch to regular GA here but use xGF/xGA everywhere else? Oh, because it suits your narrative. Bogo was fourth in xGF % in the playoffs and had a better xGA/60 than Muzzin or Holl did.

Come on man, this is getting old. I don't know why you still choose to die on the hills you do when you've been dead wrong on some big things the last few years.

I don't hate you like some others do on this forum, in fact I agree with many things you post, but your lack of objectivity in Leafs discussion and agenda based usage of stats is concerning. I've noticed in particular that when the team trades players away you tend to shit on those traded players and paint a picture that we don't need them while pumping up whoever we replaced them with. It looks even worse since you used to pump up the guys that got traded. I'm sure there are some posts of you defending Bogosian or making him look good from last season floating around on here.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Have the Oilers now surpassed Buffalo in the dumpster-fire ratings?

one had eichel and the other had mcdavid...i think mcdavid wins so yes?