Speculation: Trade and Free Agency Talk - 2022-23 Edition - Postseason Success can't be a Myth!

[Minnewildsota]

Can you imagine the outrage if the wild elected to pass on landing Parise and Suter at that time? We all knew the contracts were going to be painful in the end but you kind of had to take that chance. We had some solid vets, a great group of young guys and they seemed like they might be enough to give us a chance, in the end it didn't work out but any GM turning them down at the time would have been crazy.

I don’t think anybody disagrees here. We knew the cost when we signed them. Would do it again if put in that situation again. But we knew it would cost us down the line. It was always worth the chance.

Most fans were acceptable of the contracts and didn't think they were horrendous. They knew the consequences. It's revisionist to say that people should be pissed at Fletcher and the contracts were horrendous. Terrible? Kind of but most people were fine with them.

I think he means that any anger directed towards Guerin for not being able, willing, whatever you want to classify it as, signing Fiala should be directed towards Fletcher and the gamble (rightfully so) he took with those signings.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

How is that revisionist history? Those contracts were always going to screw things up near the end. Fiala just became the victim in time.

I think the general opinion was "probably rough at the end (especially for Parise) but still probably worth it for the first 8 years", not knowing that the end was going to line up with with prime of the best player we've ever had.

 

[Digitalbooya]

It could have been done but you had to make sacrifices in other places, instead we elected for some ok depth. Would have been so much smarter to sign him to a decent long term deal last year when we all wanted them to, all water under the bridge now.

Show me a way to have Fiala at $6.5M without further blowing up the defense

 

[Digitalbooya]

Can you imagine the outrage if the wild elected to pass on landing Parise and Suter at that time? We all knew the contracts were going to be painful in the end but you kind of had to take that chance. We had some solid vets, a great group of young guys and they seemed like they might be enough to give us a chance, in the end it didn't work out but any GM turning them down at the time would have been crazy.

Well, guess what? The outrage still came and we lost a much better and younger player.

 

[Ban Hammered]

The point is that Guerin needs to show some growth as a first time GM. His drafting so far has been pretty good and I am glad that he has continued to overturned the staff and moved on beyond the old core, but his nepotism is getting old.

To you. A lot of us don't have the "issues" you are coming up with.
All GM's have favorites and faults. Fluery's contract is not terrible, especially when he can retire after year one if he wants and it doesn't hurt us. If Talbot and his agent have an issue with it, that's on them, not Guerin. Also, blanket claiming Talbot is better is a stretch for me. Talbot may have played better after Fluery got here, but that could also change very easily this upcoming season if Talbot is still here.
Should Talbot have played in the playoffs? Sure. Would it have helped? Probably not IMO. And if he or his wife are going to be pissy about it now, that just shows an lack of professionalism on his part.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Here is some revisionist history:

If we don't sign Parise/Suter we probably have top 10 picks in

2013:
MacKinnon
Barkov
Drouin
Jones
Lindholm
Monahan
Nurse
Ristolainen
Horvat
Nichushkin

2014:
Ekblad
Reinhart
Draisaitl
Bennett
Dal Colle
Virtanen
Fleury
Nylander
Ehlers
Ritchie

2015:
McDavid
Eichel
Strome
Marner
Hanifin
Zacha
Provorov
Werenski
Meier
Rantanen

This team could look infinitely different if we didn't jump the gun on the rebuild.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Show me a way to have Fiala at $6.5M without further blowing up the defense

Zuccarello (6) - Hartman (1.7) - Kaprizov (9) = 16.7 million
Fiala (6.5 million) - Gaudreau (1.2) - Boldy (880K) = 8.58 million
Duhaime (750) - Eriksson-Ek (5.25) - Foligno (3.1) = 9.1 million
Dewar (800K) - Jost (2) - ??? = 2.8

37.18 million

Spurgeon (7.575) - Middleton (2.450) = 10.01
Brodin (6) - Dumba (6) = 12
Merill (1.2) - Kulikov (2.25) = 3.45

25.46 million

Talbot (3.5)
???

3.5 million

66.14 million with 12.743 in cap buyouts - 78.883

roughly 2.1 million to sign backup, a 7th defenseman and two depth forwards. And then who knows, maybe trade Kulikov and that opens up another 2.25 million for 4.35 million in cap space.

This team could look infinitely different if we didn't jump the gun on the rebuild.

Well, if we are looking at revisionist history, just imagine if Fletcher was hired without the directive to make the playoffs and could sell.

But the biggest issue wasn't the draft, it was the development. Granlund actually turns into a top 10 player, Coyle and Neiderreiter turn into top 6 power forwards.

 

[Minnewildsota]

Zuccarello (6) - Hartman (1.7) - Kaprizov (9) = 16.7 million
Fiala (6.5 million) - Gaudreau (1.2) - Boldy (880K) = 8.58 million
Duhaime (750) - Eriksson-Ek (5.25) - Foligno (3.1) = 9.1 million
Dewar (800K) - Jost (2) - ??? = 2.8

37.18 million

Spurgeon (7.575) - Middleton (2.450) = 10.01
Brodin (6) - Dumba (6) = 12
Merill (1.2) - Kulikov (2.25) = 3.45

25.46 million

Talbot (3.5)
???

3.5 million

66.14 million with 12.743 in cap buyouts - 78.883

roughly 2.1 million to sign backup, a 7th defenseman and two depth forwards. And then who knows, maybe trade Kulikov and that opens up another 2.25 million for 4.35 million in cap space.



Well, if we are looking at revisionist history, just imagine if Fletcher was hired without the directive to make the playoffs and could sell.

But the biggest issue wasn't the draft, it was the development. Granlund actually turns into a top 10 player, Coyle and Neiderreiter turn into top 6 power forwards.

Well that makes sense. You have 2 million to sign four players, when the league minimum is 750k.

So you take Kulikov to create more cap, but then have another hole to fill.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Zuccarello (6) - Hartman (1.7) - Kaprizov (9) = 16.7 million
Fiala (6.5 million) - Gaudreau (1.2) - Boldy (880K) = 8.58 million
Duhaime (750) - Eriksson-Ek (5.25) - Foligno (3.1) = 9.1 million
Dewar (800K) - Jost (2) - ??? = 2.8

37.18 million

Spurgeon (7.575) - Middleton (2.450) = 10.01
Brodin (6) - Dumba (6) = 12
Merill (1.2) - Kulikov (2.25) = 3.45

25.46 million

Talbot (3.5)
???

3.5 million

66.14 million with 12.743 in cap buyouts - 78.883

roughly 2.1 million to sign backup, a 7th defenseman and two depth forwards. And then who knows, maybe trade Kulikov and that opens up another 2.25 million for 4.35 million in cap space.

that backup goalie is going to be really bad or cost 3m+. if you go the cheapest route and get a goalie on a 750k ELC deal thats still 3.6m for 4 positions. its gonna get ugly. then the following year is going to be even more ugly with Boldy needing a raise not to mention any other UFA we have that i didnt look up yet.

as much as we debated fiala vs dumba. during these dead cap years both will have to go unless dumba takes a huge paycut or we find a way to trade zucc with very little cap coming back. without doing either of those we would then be blowing up the roster quite a bit and retooling for a good 2-3 years most likely.

I was all for trading dumba over fiala and running a team of all ELCs (mostly) to fill in the void but its just not something a GM will do. Fiala needed to have a very off year for us to be able to sign him comfortably and that didnt happen, sadly.

 

[Ban Hammered]

Zuccarello (6) - Hartman (1.7) - Kaprizov (9) = 16.7 million
Fiala (6.5 million) - Gaudreau (1.2) - Boldy (880K) = 8.58 million
Duhaime (750) - Eriksson-Ek (5.25) - Foligno (3.1) = 9.1 million
Dewar (800K) - Jost (2) - ??? = 2.8

37.18 million

Spurgeon (7.575) - Middleton (2.450) = 10.01
Brodin (6) - Dumba (6) = 12
Merill (1.2) - Kulikov (2.25) = 3.45

25.46 million

Talbot (3.5)
???

3.5 million

66.14 million with 12.743 in cap buyouts - 78.883

roughly 2.1 million to sign backup, a 7th defenseman and two depth forwards. And then who knows, maybe trade Kulikov and that opens up another 2.25 million for 4.35 million in cap space.



Well, if we are looking at revisionist history, just imagine if Fletcher was hired without the directive to make the playoffs and could sell.

But the biggest issue wasn't the draft, it was the development. Granlund actually turns into a top 10 player, Coyle and Neiderreiter turn into top 6 power forwards.

League minimum is 750K. Your roster can't happen.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

League minimum is 750K. Your roster can't happen.

I think Addison in for Kulikov gets you there, but that roster does have a distinct lack of Rossi to it.

 

[Ban Hammered]

I think Addison in for Kulikov gets you there, but that roster does have a distinct lack of Rossi to it.

And that still leaves a very bad backup goalie or Wallstadt as a rookie being thrown to the wolves.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

If there truly was an open mind to keeping Fiala around long-term, the move would've been to give Addison more run in the NHL, even as a 3rd pair/PP guy, just to give you a better idea this summer if he could be able to elevate in the lineup and "replace" Dumba this season. But they didn't, which was pretty telling.

And that still leaves a very bad backup goalie or Wallstadt as a rookie being thrown to the wolves.

Like we've said before, there was going to be hole blown into the roster, it was just a matter of where you were comfortable with it. Unsurprisingly, I am/was a lot more comfortable with it being in the backup goalie + depth defense spots than the play-driving PPG winger spot.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Zuccarello (6) - Hartman (1.7) - Kaprizov (9) = 16.7 million
Fiala (6.5 million) - Gaudreau (1.2) - Boldy (880K) = 8.58 million
Duhaime (750) - Eriksson-Ek (5.25) - Foligno (3.1) = 9.1 million
Dewar (800K) - Jost (2) - ??? = 2.8

37.18 million

Spurgeon (7.575) - Middleton (2.450) = 10.01
Brodin (6) - Dumba (6) = 12
Merill (1.2) - Kulikov (2.25) = 3.45

25.46 million

Talbot (3.5)
???

3.5 million

66.14 million with 12.743 in cap buyouts - 78.883

roughly 2.1 million to sign backup, a 7th defenseman and two depth forwards. And then who knows, maybe trade Kulikov and that opens up another 2.25 million for 4.35 million in cap space.

It always mildly amuses me when I ask for a roster with Fiala and the person then picks and chooses the contracts they want and STILL have virtually no way of being cap compliant with a 23 man roster.

Not only that, then skip forward a year when Gaudreau/Dumba/Kulikov are gone. Boldy basically takes Dumba's cap hit, Duhaime takes Gaudreau's cap hit. Jost needs to be re-signed. Rossi is officially called up. Wallstedt is the backup. Dead cap increases by $2M. At that point you've got what, $10M in cap for 8 roster spots? These spots include top 4 RHD, 3rd pair RD, 7th D, starting goaltender, 4C, 4LW, and 13th forward at minimum. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

 

[Digitalbooya]

If there truly was an open mind to keeping Fiala around long-term, the move would've been to give Addison more run in the NHL, even as a 3rd pair/PP guy, just to give you a better idea this summer if he could be able to elevate in the lineup and "replace" Dumba this season. But they didn't, which was pretty telling.



Like we've said before, there was going to be hole blown into the roster, it was just a matter of where you were comfortable with it. Unsurprisingly, I am/was a lot more comfortable with it being in the backup goalie + depth defense spots than the play-driving PPG winger spot.

Then you are in the same spot next offseason when Boldy wants $6M+ to re-sign and Dumba is already gone. If you trade Zuccarello, who are you replacing him with on the wing opposite of Kaprizov?

 

[Ban Hammered]

If there truly was an open mind to keeping Fiala around long-term, the move would've been to give Addison more run in the NHL, even as a 3rd pair/PP guy, just to give you a better idea this summer if he could be able to elevate in the lineup and "replace" Dumba this season. But they didn't, which was pretty telling.



Like we've said before, there was going to be hole blown into the roster, it was just a matter of where you were comfortable with it. Unsurprisingly, I am/was a lot more comfortable with it being in the backup goalie + depth defense spots than the play-driving PPG winger spot.

But it's also not just about this upcoming year, there's the two after that as well. Fiala wasn't taking 6.5 here, and with what he did get, there was no way we could keep him. There would be holes at way more than just backup goalie had we tried. It's just not feasible.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

It always mildly amuses me when I ask for a roster with Fiala and the person then picks and chooses the contracts they want and STILL have virtually no way of being cap compliant with a 23 man roster.

Not only that, then skip forward a year when Gaudreau/Dumba/Kulikov are gone. Boldy basically takes Dumba's cap hit, Duhaime takes Gaudreau's cap hit. Jost needs to be re-signed. Rossi is officially called up. Wallstedt is the backup. Dead cap increases by $2M. At that point you've got what, $10M in cap for 8 roster spots? These spots include top 4 RHD, 3rd pair RD, 7th D, starting goaltender, 4C, 4LW, and 13th forward at minimum. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

It's always been:
Goligoski last summer
Dumba this summer
Zuccarello next summer

The pros and cons can be debated, especially in the Dumba and Zuccarello spots, but the pathway has been pretty clear the whole time if they would've chosen it.

 

[north21]

Show me a way to have Fiala at $6.5M without further blowing up the defense

Ship out or not sign a goalie and save 2.5, you maybe don't trade for Jost and save 2 letting sturm walk, don't sign goliogisk or trade kulikov and you are pretty much there. Nothing really earth shattering and we keep our top 4.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

But it's also not just about this upcoming year, there's the two after that as well. Fiala wasn't taking 6.5 here, and with what he did get, there was no way we could keep him. There would be holes at way more than just backup goalie had we tried. It's just not feasible.

2022-23 Season
Kaprizov - Hartman - Zuccarello
Boldy - Rossi - Fiala (7.875)
Greenway - JEE - Foligno
Duhaime - Jost - Dewar
13th F (750k)
Parise buyout

Brodin - Spurgeon
Middleton - Addison
Kulikov - Merrill
7th D (750k)
Suter buyout

Fleury
Backup/1B goalie (?)

1.8M in space for the backup goalie spot.

2023-24 Season
Kaprizov - Rossi - X
Boldy (?) - Hartman - Fiala
GREEF
Duhaime (?) - 4C (?) - Dewar
13th F (750k)
Parise buyout

Brodin - Spurgeon
Middleton - Addison (?)
RoR/Hunt (925k) - Merrill
7th D (750k)
Suter buyout

Fleury
Wallstedt (925k)

~12.2M in cap space for Boldy, Addison bridge, two 4th line forwards, and yes, trying to find a replacement for Zuccarello (admittedly maybe not easy to do).

I continue to disagree with "no way". It's simply a choice that they made.

Then you are in the same spot next offseason when Boldy wants $6M+ to re-sign and Dumba is already gone. If you trade Zuccarello, who are you replacing him with on the wing opposite of Kaprizov?

It's the same issue we could very well have a season from then anyway. Something that would definitely have to be resolved.

 

[Ban Hammered]

First one might be possible, but with Greenway and Merrill not expected to be ready for the start of the season, they get replaced with who?
Also, 1.8 for a goalie may be feasible, but then there's almost nothing for callups because injuries will happen.

 

[north21]

But it's also not just about this upcoming year, there's the two after that as well. Fiala wasn't taking 6.5 here, and with what he did get, there was no way we could keep him. There would be holes at way more than just backup goalie had we tried. It's just not feasible.

6.5 by 6, 7 or 8 years might have been possible prior to his big year.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

First one might be possible, but with Greenway and Merrill not expected to be ready for the start of the season, they get replaced with who?
Also, 1.8 for a goalie may be feasible, but then there's almost nothing for callups because injuries will happen.

Last I heard, it was questionable by the start of camp. Haven't heard anything about regular season games.

I think Beckman and Mermis would probably be the first callups, but that doesn't really have anything to do with Fiala, because it's the same with him gone. Same with the goalies.

And I have Boldy, Rossi and Addison in there at their full bonus cap hits. There's probably an extra $750k or $1M in there if you plan on them not reaching them all.

 

[Ban Hammered]

6.5 by 6, 7 or 8 years might have been possible prior to his big year.

Sure, speculation may have made it possible. I personally don't think so.

 

[Digitalbooya]

But it's also not just about this upcoming year, there's the two after that as well. Fiala wasn't taking 6.5 here, and with what he did get, there was no way we could keep him. There would be holes at way more than just backup goalie had we tried. It's just not feasible.

I actually think we got out of the Fiala situation in a pretty okay spot. Next offseason give Boldy $5.5-6M with term. Trade Dumba at the TDL or let him walk. Replace him with whoever has the best training camp between Faber/Addison and the other gets the 3rd pair role.

Kaprizov(9)-Hartman(1.7)-Zuccarello(6)
Boldy(6)-Rossi(.863)-Jost(2.5)
Greenway(3)-Eriksson Ek(5.25)-Foligno(3.1)
Duhaime(1.5)-XXXX-Dewar(.800)

Brodin(6)-Faber(.925)
Middleton(2.45)-Spurgeon(7.575)
Merrill(1.2)-Addison(1.5)
Goligoski(2)

MAF(3.5)
Wallstedt(.925)

That is $65.788M + $14.74M (dead cap) = $80.528M

Roster spot needed: 4C, 13th forward, extra
Cap space ~ $3M (ish)

 

[NHL1674]

Last I heard, it was questionable by the start of camp. Haven't heard anything about regular season games.

I think Beckman and Mermis would probably be the first callups, but that doesn't really have anything to do with Fiala, because it's the same with him gone. Same with the goalies.

And I have Boldy, Rossi and Addison in there at their full bonus cap hits. There's probably an extra $750k or $1M in there if you plan on them not reaching them all.

I assumed he meant the regular season.