Toronto Maple Leafs: Who Would Replace Kyle Dubas?

[acrobaticgoalie]

He has bled picks which will cost us in the near future. Eventually we will be looking up at teams drafting in the top 10. It will be much sooner if 34 leaves.

We are in better shape than other contenders prospect pool wise despite trading first rounders. We have gotten incredible value out of our later picks.

 

[Wiseguys]

I dont think another GM will make much of a difference, they cant break up the core 4 , they have to stick with them to have any chance at a championship, and go with them until the Taveras contract is up, at that point if they haven't won, then with the extra cap space they can pursue another GM. Currently there isn't much wiggle room cap wise that will make a difference for a new Gm.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Premature threadulation?

What scares me is Trotz said he wants to be GM, sports has along history of Coaches becoming GMs and absolutely f-ing up a franchise. If barry wants to come here and be a Coach cool, if he wants to be the GM, hard pass.

Is Hunter an option?

I hope he's not

 

[ToneDog]

We are in better shape than other contenders prospect pool wise despite trading first rounders. We have gotten incredible value out of our later picks.

Perhaps on paper. In 5 Dubas drafts, Sandin and Holmberg are on the current roster and a couple of players have had a cup of coffee (Durzi was traded). In 4 Hunter/Lou drafts we have 16, 34, 37, 88 and 47 on the roster (Dermott and Grundstrom were traded). Quality over quantity.

I dont think another GM will make much of a difference, they cant break up the core 4 , they have to stick with them to have any chance at a championship, and go with them until the Taveras contract is up, at that point if they haven't won, then with the extra cap space they can pursue another GM. Currently there isn't much wiggle room cap wise that will make a difference for a new Gm.

Why not ?? Especially if 34 or 88 force you to.

 

[ACC1224]

Premature threadulation?

What scares me is Trotz said he wants to be GM, sports has along history of Coaches becoming GMs and absolutely f-ing up a franchise. If barry wants to come here and be a Coach cool, if he wants to be the GM, hard pass.

Is Hunter an option?

No I wouldn’t think so.

How do we feel about allowing Shanahan to hire the next GM (if it comes to that) when he’s the man who thought Lou Lam, Hunter and Dubas were a good hires?

 

[Hellcat]

No I wouldn’t think so.

How do we feel about allowing Shanahan to hire the next GM (if it comes to that) when he’s the man who thought Lou Lam, Hunter and Dubas were a good hires?

I think it starts at the top, Shanny sets the tone, not sure Shanny is the guy TBH. With Willie, Austin, Marner all due for new contracts in the next few years, bringing in a new regime change makes sense. The new guy can be the captain of his own success or failure, he's not pigeon holed because the last guy signed 4 people to half his cap.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Perhaps on paper. In 5 Dubas drafts, Sandin and Holmberg are on the current roster and a couple of players have had a cup of coffee (Durzi was traded). In 4 Hunter/Lou drafts we have 16, 34, 37, 88 and 47 on the roster (Dermott and Grundstrom were traded). Quality over quantity.


Why not ?? Especially if 34 or 88 force you to.

You are comparing later picks to top 10 picks which is disingenuous. Do you see other contenders picking in the top 10? A real comparison would be between picks that were made from 2nd round on and its no contest that the picks under the current regime is tracking way better than under the previous.

 

[Gallagbi]

Fair, Jarnkrok is best described as “just ok”. My post was more comparing our recent moves to Boston’s. Under Dubas the team’s we have to compete against are acquiring better players and signing them to better contracts. I’m also not a huge fan of paying that price for Foligno just to lose in the first round and For him to sign with Boston.

I certainty wouldnt have kept him for 3.8M

 

[Dekes For Days]

Perhaps on paper. In 5 Dubas drafts, Sandin and Holmberg are on the current roster and a couple of players have had a cup of coffee (Durzi was traded). In 4 Hunter/Lou drafts we have 16, 34, 37, 88 and 47 on the roster (Dermott and Grundstrom were traded). Quality over quantity.

Neither Hunter or Lou were here for the 2014 draft.
It's also hilariously misleading to include lottery picks from a rebuilding era, and try to compare it to later picks in a competitive era.
Also, it takes time for development. One group is 5-8 years since being drafted, and the other group is 0-4 years since being drafted.
We've got 3 NHLers from 2018 already, 1 from 2019 who would probably be on the team if he wasn't injured, 1 from 2020 who would probably be on the team if he didn't get brain cancer, and 1 from 2021 that will likely join the team by the end of the year, with many more excelling in the AHL and various leagues.

 

[ToneDog]

You are comparing later picks to top 10 picks which is disingenuous. Do you see other contenders picking in the top 10? A real comparison would be between picks that were made from 2nd round on and its no contest that the picks under the current regime is tracking way better than under the previous.

Agreed but Dubas has traded some of his high picks (Muzzin, Soup, Foligno, Rittich, Gio) or using them to dump mistakes (Marleau, Ritchie, Mrazek). Tampa has but they have something to show for them. I am not really concerned if other teams screw up worse.

 

[All Mod Cons]

We are in better shape than other contenders prospect pool wise despite trading first rounders. We have gotten incredible value out of our later picks.

Have we though? I'm not saying we haven't, but I don't know if we have.

Everytime a Marlie gets into the first team, none of them seem to constantly offer much. Spurts here and there for sure. It seems like we have a lot of guys that can sort of play a soft style in the bottom six.

Then we sign half a dozen UFAs to do the same thing.

 

[Byron Bitz]

I certainty wouldnt have kept him for 3.8M

he’s been good for Boston this year, I’d rather pay Foligno 3.8 than Kerfoot 3.5

 

[Larcos_Unal]

When Dubas & Shanny took the reins the #1 priority was creating a safe environment for the players. In that regard they not only succeeded, but they ended up going overboard and overdoing it. There's no repercussion, there's not accountability throughout the lineup unless you're a plug on line 4 making league min.

I cannot wait to see that series vs Tampa and let's let the players' performance dictate whether Dubas put his eggs in the wrong basket.

The next regime (whoever that is) should appreciate that the crest on the front comes first. There should be a balance in the lineup between balls & skill, pretty much every team in the NHL has this except us. There needs to be not only pushback, but initiation of physicality so you can do to opposing stars what teams like Boston do to our stars...take them out of the game.

 

[Malachi Crunch]

Look, if Dubas makes some moves and does damage in the playoffs....keep him. I'm not rigid....I will support him.

But for people to want to keep him if we get bounced in the playoffs again? Wow. Come on!!! No other organization in the entire league (let along in the entire sports world) would keep a GM with that track record. None. Zero. Zilch.

Is it a difficulty dealing with change? Fear of the unknown? Do people love what Dubas (superficially) stands for? What is this weird attachment with him? So baffling. I liked Lou, but if he shit the bed 7 times in a row, I absolutely would want to see his old ass gone from the team. People need to stop worshipping human beings.

 

[ToneDog]

Neither Hunter or Lou were here for the 2014 draft.
It's also hilariously misleading to include lottery picks from a rebuilding era, and try to compare it to later picks in a competitive era.
Also, it takes time for development. One group is 5-8 years since being drafted, and the other group is 0-4 years since being drafted.
We've got 3 NHLers from 2018 already, 1 from 2019 who would probably be on the team if he wasn't injured, 1 from 2020 who would probably be on the team if he didn't get brain cancer, and 1 from 2021 that will likely join the team by the end of the year, with many more excelling in the AHL and various leagues.

So who's fault is it that Dubas has not drafted high ?? He has had 5 firsts and dumped Kappy for a 6th. He has Sandin and Amirov to show for them.

 

[ToneDog]

When Dubas & Shanny took the reins the #1 priority was creating a safe environment for the players. In that regard they not only succeeded, but they ended up going overboard and overdoing it. There's no repercussion, there's not accountability throughout the lineup unless you're a plug on line 4 making league min.

I cannot wait to see that series vs Tampa and let's let the players' performance dictate whether Dubas put his eggs in the wrong basket.

The next regime (whoever that is) should appreciate that the crest on the front comes first. There should be a balance in the lineup between balls & skill, pretty much every team in the NHL has this except us. There needs to be not only pushback, but initiation of physicality so you can do to opposing stars what teams like Boston do to our stars...take them out of the game.

And how long will that take ? If they fail again, he will have wasted 5 years of 16,34,88 and 91.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So who's fault is it that Dubas has not drafted high ??

I guess you could say it's Dubas' fault we haven't drafted in the lottery over the past 5 drafts, since he dared to turn us into a top-tier, perennial contender instead of the pile of burning garbage we'd need to be to draft that low. Doesn't make your comparison any less misleading.

 

[ShaneFalco]

This thread turning into a really great study of the bizarre, twisted psyche of a devoted Kyle Dubas lover.

Very interesting seeing real Leafs + hockey fans interacting and going against that world-view.

Many have stayed away because if you're not cheerleading you're miserable

 

[koyvoo]

Picks low enough to land Foligno

 

[ToneDog]

There are a lot of moves to be critical of Jarnkork isn't one of them.

It is funny that Kypreos said we have 6 Engvalls in our bottom 6. No team with 6 Engvalls is winning anything. LOL.

I guess you could say it's Dubas' fault we haven't drafted in the lottery over the past 5 drafts, since he dared to turn us into a top-tier, perennial contender instead of the pile of burning garbage we'd need to be to draft that low. Doesn't make your comparison any less misleading.

Forget lottery picks. What does he have to show for the 6 first round picks he has had since he took over ? I'll tell you, 4 first round exits and Sandin.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Forget lottery picks.

But lottery picks are exactly what you used to misrepresent our pre-2018 drafting relative to our drafting since.
Now you're trying to change the discussion.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Agreed but Dubas has traded some of his high picks (Muzzin, Soup, Foligno, Rittich, Gio) or using them to dump mistakes (Marleau, Ritchie, Mrazek). Tampa has but they have something to show for them. I am not really concerned if other teams screw up worse.

I never liked trading high picks for rentals but I wouldn't exactly group Muzzin, Soup and Gio into a category as wasting picks. Those were solid trades that filled needs well. It's not about other teams screwing up worse. My point is that this is what contenders do for playoff runs, they become buyers to fill needs and add depth and that we are no different. But also that despite trading high picks, we have been drafting better than other contenders and still have a deep pool. By comparison Tampa, Boston and Colorado have nothing left in their pools.

You are right that they at least have results to show for it though.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Many have stayed away because if you're not cheerleading you're miserable

Plenty of non-cheerleader types post regularly.

 

[ToneDog]

But lottery picks are exactly what you used to misrepresent our pre-2018 drafting relative to our drafting since.

Yup that is why I said quality over quantity and agreed it was not a good comparison. Now we are talking about what Dubas has done with "his" first round picks because that is where most of the quality from drafts comes from. I mean you can't bitch because he has not drafted high when he is the reason he has only drafted twice in the first round and has virtually nothing to show for those picks.

 

[Peasy]

So who's fault is it that Dubas has not drafted high ?? He has had 5 firsts and dumped Kappy for a 6th. He has Sandin and Amirov to show for them.

Some of it has been his fault, but its disingenuous to act like there hasnt been some shitty circumstances.

Marleau wasn't his fault, he never signed that contract. Everyone knew when that contract was signed the Leafs would somehow have to dump him in the final year (SJS weren't even willing to give him 3 years...).

Amirov got brain cancer, not much you can do about that.

He traded a 1st for muzzin which was a solid trade and really needed at the time because again, Lou's best attempt at fixing the D was giving Zaitsev a 7 year deal.

Trading for Foligno was pure desperation because of the illusion that the North division would be a cake walk.

Obviously having to trade back 10 spots to dump Mrazek is solely on him, but I think they made that move because they could still get a player they value at a similar level back in the draft. And really in terms of value per pick, there wasnt much loss (late 1st, early 2nd is practically the same chance of drafting a successful NHLer).

Hes done more than fine for where they have drafted.

And really, theres only 1 player from those 1sts that hes moved that has been a regular NHLer (Jarvis) and again, you might not agree but imo it was not his fault at all that they had to shed that pick to get rid of Marleau. He is not the one that signed the contract.