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Toronto Maple Leafs are surprisingly underperforming

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Divine said:
A few fans on here doesn't mean the market turned on him. People were upset with Nylander/Marner/Matthews contracts - does that mean the market turned on the Leafs?

People were 100% upset at Drai, go look at the thread. Just because he lived up to the contract doesn't change the fact it was an overpayment at the time.

You're arguing the market turned on a player.. but his jersey still sells. How does that make sense to anyone but you?
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Any hockey market is always going to have its fair share or die-hards that know the ins and outs of the team and casuals that just want to look swag and hit some home games to grab some drinks every now and then. Casuals buying SOME (not even a lot) of Marner jerseys means nothing.

"A few fans" didn't turn on Marner. Every Leafs die-hard with the support of Sportsnet and TSN put Marner and his Dad through the ringer DAILY when the contract stuff was going on. This is a fact, no matter what Jersey sales argument you are trying to use.
 
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TheNumber4 said:
Any hockey market is always going to have its fair share or die-hards that know the ins and outs of the team and casuals that just want to look swag and hit some home games to grab some drinks every now and then. Casuals buying SOME (not even a lot) of Marner jerseys means nothing.

"A few fans" didn't turn on Marner. Every Leafs die-hard with the support of Sportsnet and TSN put Marner and his Dad through the ringer DAILY when the contract stuff was going on. This is a fact, no matter what Jersey sales argument you are trying to use.
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So you're arguing that Marner jerseys are only bought by casuals? Casuals don't want to buy other jerseys? Not the captains jersey? Rielly?

You have this weird debate style where you dispute actual evidence and validate your opinion with no evidence. Find me evidence that not a lot of Marner jerseys are sold. Until then, I'm going to assume you're making stuff up as per usual (like your Ottawa was retaining 50% of Matt Murray's contract for Buffalo take yesterday that you ran away from when I asked for a source).
 
Dave Poulin didn’t hold back.

Talks about how Marner was only benched for a single shift after his turnovers. Saying he should have been benched for the rest of the game and potentially healthy scratched next game for how bad those turnovers were.

I haven’t seen the one below the goal line but apparently it was extremely lazy, and shinny’esque or back yard rink style.
 
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Divine said:
So you're arguing that Marner jerseys are only bought by casuals? Casuals don't want to buy other jerseys? Not the captains jersey? Rielly?

You have this weird argument style where you dispute actual evidence and validate your opinion with no evidence. Find me evidence that not a lot of Marner jerseys are sold. Until then, I'm going to assume you're making stuff up as per usual (like your Ottawa was retaining 50% of Matt Murray's contract take yesterday that you ran away from when I asked for a source).
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No. You're arguing about what Jersey Sales says about a Fanbase and how they feel about a Player. I'm saying that doesn't matter cause all we need to do is see what the Fanbase says about the player to know how they feel about the player, and what's said about Marner AND his Dad isn't pretty and wasn't pretty for nearly an entire year straight fresh before and after that contract was signed.

I didn't dispute "actual" evidence. I disputed shoddy evidence.

And I ain't validating an opinion. Marner being attacked by Leafs Fans and Media isn't an opinion that needs to be validated, it's a fact. But if you've really forgotten here's some evidence from just tonight: Poulin: Marner should've sat for rest of game after 'unacceptable' giveaway in third

I seem to remember you getting into it about Murray with an Oilers fan. I wasn't the main guy you were debating with. But regardless, Ottawa was retaining on Murray in that trade as per reports, no exact Percentage was leaked though.
 
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Next game:


Robertson - Matthews -Jarnkrok
Bunting - Tavares - Marner
Kerfoot - Holmberg - Malgin
Sandin - Kampf - Engvall

Rielly - Brodie
Giordano - Nylander
Kral - Holl

Samsonov
Kallgren
 
The Toronto Maple Leafs suck so bad right now. I'd say it's familiar territory, but they shouldn't be this bad.

They are a mess out on the ice.

I'd like to wake up to a Bloody Monday tomorrow as far as this hockey team goes......but I also don't really care anymore.

It has to start with Keefe because that's how it goes. You don't fire the whole team, you start with the coach and go from there.

So let's start there. And then obviously Dubas is on the clock. Anyone mentioning Shannahan, I don't think so. I like him and think he's very good at his job, yet I can't remember the last time I've even heard him address anything about the team but I also stopped following sports media quite a few years ago.

But yeah, Leafs SUCK!!!! Something is wrong.
 
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TheNumber4 said:
No. You're arguing about what Jersey Sales says about a Fanbase and how they feel about a Player. I'm saying that doesn't matter cause all we need to do is see what the Fanbase says about the player to know how they feel about the player, and what's said about Marner AND his Dad isn't pretty and wasn't pretty for nearly an entire year straight free off before and after that contract was signed.

I didn't dispute "actual" evidence. I disputed shoddy evidence.

And I ain't validating an opinion. Marner being attacked by Leafs Fans and Media isn't an opinion that needs to be validated, it's a fact. But if you've really forgotten here's some evidence from just tonight: Poulin: Marner should've sat for rest of game after 'unacceptable' giveaway in third

I seem to remember you getting into it about Murray with an Oilers fan. I wasn't the main guy you were debating with. But regardless, Ottawa was retaining on Murray in that trade as per reports, no exact Percentage was leaked though.
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Yeah, but you provide no evidence. Saying Marner should be benched for a giveaway is turning on him? I'd consider that accountability. Marner was benched for a giveaway, the article is saying he wasn't benched long enough.

I'd take 'shoddy evidence' over zero evidence any day.
 
Divine said:
Yeah, but you provide no evidence. Saying Marner should be benched for a giveaway in turning on him? I'd consider that accountability.

I'd take 'shoddy evidence' over zero evidence any day.
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Just one small example of the Media and Fans constant sewering of Marner that points to him not having a good time as a Leaf. Or do you think he's having a great time? Cause he seems to be crying at the end of every season? And he seems to be getting scapegoated every 1st round exit.

In any case, let's agree to disagree, I don't think a Leafs homer can have an objective view over what's happening in Leafs land.

SmoggyTwinkles said:
How long does a Tortorella last in Toronto?

I think Marner needs to be moved along. He has become unlikable and brings a swagger that is just childish. His head has gotten too swollen.
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CASE. AND. POINT.
 
TheNumber4 said:
Just one small example of the Media and Fans constant sewering of Marner that points to him not having a good time as a Leaf. Or do you think he's having a great time? Cause he seems to be crying at the end of every season? And he seems to be getting scapegoated every 1st round exit.

In any case, let's agree to disagree, I don't think a Leafs homer can have an objective view over what's happening in Leafs land.
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"we are grown men"

Whines like a child to the ref, not helping there.

Figure skating out there on the ice.

You want him and his cap hit? It also sounds like he is very involved in the behind the scenes. He shouldn't be.
 
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SmoggyTwinkles said:
"we are grown men"

Whines like a child to the ref, not helping there.

Figure skating out there on the ice.

You want him and his cap hit? It also sounds like he is very involved in the behind the scenes. He shouldn't be.
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If only you guys didn't put "shambles in his brain".



But yeh no... I don't think I'd want that Cap and Player over here.
 
TheNumber4 said:
Just one small example of the Media and Fans constant sewering of Marner that points to him not having a good time as a Leaf. Or do you think he's having a great time? Cause he seems to be crying at the end of every season? And he seems to be getting scapegoated every 1st round exit.

In any case, let's agree to disagree, I don't think a Leafs homer can have an objective view over what's happening in Leafs land.


CASE. AND. POINT.
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There's a large contingent of Leafs fans that want to gut the team and start over.

I think you start with the coach, take a look at the "leadership" and if there is drama there, and/or guys who are not leaders (officially) having influence on the roster etc.

Same as any work place when things aren't going as planned. Maybe the manager sucks. Maybe there's a group of influential players making things shitty for the rest of them etc etc.

But now we're talking about stuff that we don't even know about.

Something needs to happen in Leafs land, it's gotta be Keefe because I'm sure he's aware of what's going on behind the scenes, and if he isn't, well that just as big a problem, because you can't go firing the whole team.

Same thing in every sport when things aren't going well.
 
SmoggyTwinkles said:
There's a large contingent of Leafs fans that want to gut the team and start over.

I think you start with the coach, take a look at the "leadership" and if there is drama there, and/or guys who are not leaders (officially) having influence on the roster etc.

Same as any work place when things aren't going as planned. Maybe the manager sucks. Maybe there's a group of influential players making things shitty for the rest of them etc etc.

But now we're talking about stuff that we don't even know about.

Something needs to happen in Leafs land, it's gotta be Keefe because I'm sure he's aware of what's going on behind the scenes, and if he isn't, well that just as big a problem, because you can't go firing the whole team.

Same thing in every sport when things aren't going well.
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Rarely do teams know EXACTLY what's going on when things are going bad, it's a lot of speculation cause things like human relationships happen behind closed doors to the media.

But with how common coaching changes are used as jolt and refresher for a team it seems logical to try that as a starting point and see what happens. So I agree.
 
TheNumber4 said:
If only you guys didn't put "shambles in his brain".



But yeh no... I don't think I'd want that Cap and Player over here.
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Another thing about Marner, he's never going to be better than he has already shown. He is what he is right now, making a shit ton. He's up against that and knows it deep down.

Leafs should move him. And he and his parents are way too involved.

And they base their play around him too much. I'm an expert insider btw (jokes)

Fire Keefe, look into moving Marner. That's all.
 
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Leafs are starting to remind me of the Chia-era Oilers. Can’t score outside of one line, inconsistent defense, goaltending that could fall apart at any moment.
 
Cloned said:
Leafs are starting to remind me of the Chia-era Oilers. Can’t score outside of one line, inconsistent defense, goaltending that could fall apart at any moment.
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What do you mean fall apart at any moment? That has already happened.

There is something rotten going on with the Leafs, and I honestly believe they will bounce back, but they have to do something that resonates as soon as possible.
 
SmoggyTwinkles said:
How long does a Tortorella last in Toronto?

I think Marner needs to be moved along. He has become unlikable and brings a swagger that is just childish. His head has gotten too swollen.
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Maybe trotz doesn’t last long, but atleast he could cut M&M’s ego’s in half to prep the next coach lol
 
TheNumber4 said:
I dunno.... but it seems Marner is resentful about Leafs fans and Leafs media putting them there.
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If the Leafs are gonna try something even a little different, Marner has to go and Keefe has to go.

That's a major shakeup, but maybe the right kind of shakeup.

centipede2233 said:
Maybe trotz doesn’t last long, but atleast he could cut M&M’s ego’s in half to prep the next coach lol
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I think I got confused and was thinking Tortz was being suggested. My bad haha. Imagine John Tortorella in Toronto.......oh damn that would be fun for a bit.
 
SmoggyTwinkles said:
If the Leafs are gonna try something even a little different, Marner has to go and Keefe has to go.

That's a major shakeup, but maybe the right kind of shakeup.
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How are the Leafs trading Marner in-season? Contenders don't have the cap space to fit him in and pretenders probably don't want to take on almost $11 million if they're still in the rebuilding stage.

That seems more like something you'd do in the summer when navigating the salary cap is easier.
 
TheNumber4 said:
Rarely do teams know EXACTLY what's going on when things are going bad, it's a lot of speculation cause things like human relationships happen behind closed doors to the media.

But with how common coaching changes are used as jolt and refresher for a team it seems logical to try that as a starting point and see what happens. So I agree.
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If you've ever worked in even a slightly dysfunctional work environment, you know that it's bad management and yet all the low level workers know what the problems are, but the manager won't address it and usually doubles down on whatever isn't working in the first place.

OH dear. Well, my favourite hockey team sucks again. Kinda don't care anymore. Should have stopped caring a long time ago, and yet I will uggggghhhhh.....keep being a fan......

Hey it was fun watching Matthews score goals last year!

Sidney the Kidney said:
How are the Leafs trading Marner in-season? Contenders don't have the cap space to fit him in and pretenders probably don't want to take on almost $11 million if they're still in the rebuilding stage.

That seems more like something you'd do in the summer when navigating the salary cap is easier.
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So Marner is not a "franchise" player?
 
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