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Toronto Maple Leafs are surprisingly underperforming

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PunchImlach is Alive said:
If the Toronto fans don't shape up, they need to sell the team for parts before the deadline. The only way to get the stench out of the building.
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Matthews and Nylander would be traded on free agency day, not the deadline, as they'll be able to extend with their new teams and Leafs can get more value out of a sign-and-trade type of deal.

Tavares is staying, he won't waive his NMC.

Marner would either stay, or a team would give up a really good top 6 forward, probably a young one, as well as multiple high valued picks or prospects. Something like Marner and Kerfoot for Wheeler, Dubois, McGroarty, 1st, or maybe something around Kyrou in the offseason, I don't know. It's hard to say exactly why would pony up for Marner and what they would end up giving us.

Rielly I think would stay, even through a rebuild.

Robertson and Liljegren should probably also stay, they're young and developing. Trade Sandin.

Maybe we would keep Jarnkrok, at least, for now.

Everybody else on the NHL roster would be available to be sold off to the highest bidder.
 
SnipeShowJB11 said:
I always wonder why I never ever ever see Matthews and Marner split up. Is Keefe just lazy? He changes one guy on the 2nd line and that's about it.

Anaheim will be a good tonic for TO. Guaranteed win night.
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Keefe has no say. The inmates are running the prison. And Matthews/Marner want those gravy points to compete for trophies and ever increasing contracts.

The Oilers used to run McDrai as a line too a long time ago but it was never for all year, only emergency situations. McDrai will take whatever line combinations that’s good for the team as a whole, Mariners/Matthews won’t.
 
Mr Positive said:
Dubas seems like an objectively high quality GM. I swear it is true. It all goes to how you evaluate a GM. Imo, the quality of the gambles should matter more than the results, like poker. It seems to me like Dubas has made the right moves but the wrong cards have been popping up.

I can't think of a pivot point that truly put the Leafs down the wrong path. It's easy to say that the move was Tavares, and that this condemned them to being too forward heavy. However, for that criticism to have force don't you also have to point out the elite defenseman or goalie or whoever, that they could have picked instead? Or, is the wisdom that the Leafs would be better with that money spent on depth players?
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bruh...just because there weren't any name defensemen at the time doesn't mean they HAD to go for tavares. If they had have had some patience they could have had room for hyman, and been in on the pietrangelo sweepstakes later on. You've already got your 1-2 punch up front. Now you need a stud #1D, and some goaltending. What you definitely dont need at that point is another #1C at UFA prices.

Instead, to use your metaphor - this guy was handed the chip lead, committed more than half his stack chasing a pretty, shiny flush draw when he didn't need to - (ie; a shitty gamble) - and now he has whittled himself (and the prospect cupboard) down to a few BBs and had to bet his tournament life on injury prone Murray (ie; a shitty gamble) This guy is objectively terrible at poker.
 
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Mr Positive said:
Dubas seems like an objectively high quality GM. I swear it is true. It all goes to how you evaluate a GM. Imo, the quality of the gambles should matter more than the results, like poker. It seems to me like Dubas has made the right moves but the wrong cards have been popping up.

I can't think of a pivot point that truly put the Leafs down the wrong path. It's easy to say that the move was Tavares, and that this condemned them to being too forward heavy. However, for that criticism to have force don't you also have to point out the elite defenseman or goalie or whoever, that they could have picked instead? Or, is the wisdom that the Leafs would be better with that money spent on depth players?
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You think spending 11 million dollars on Tavares was smart?
 
ChadBigly said:
bruh...just because there weren't any name defensemen at the time doesn't mean they HAD to go for tavares. If they had have had some patience they could have had room for hyman, and been in on the pietrangelo sweepstakes later on. You've already got your 1-2 punch up front. Now you need a stud #1D, and some goaltending. What you definitely dont need at that point is another #1C at UFA prices. Instead, to use your metaphor - this guy was handed the chip lead, committed more than half his stack chasing a pretty, shiny flush draw when he didn't need to - (ie; a shitty gamble) - and now he has whittled himself (and the prospect cupboard) down to a few BBs and had to bet his tournament life on injury prone Murray (ie; a shitty gamble) This guy is objectively terrible at poker.
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Pietrangelo is basically the only main ufa D who was available. It was very unlikely he'd end up in Toronto with taxes and covid rules. At the very least, letting Tavares sign elsewhere on the hope an elite D would hit ufa and sign there is bad gambling. In this time he added Brodie and Muzzin. Keeping Hyman is a genuine loss that could have been prevented but he's a complementary winger (albeit a great one). As for goalies, there also wasn't a truly good one that was or would be available. Dubas has done a good job of cycling through very good bets at goalie. It makes to try things at that position.
MessierII said:
You think spending 11 million dollars on Tavares was smart?
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It may be true that signing any forward approaching 30 isn't smart. In that way, you're right but what team out there has been truly smart enough to avoid an elite player because of how the contract might age in the 2nd half of it?

Also if we are talking about smart bets at the time, that one was made with the assumption that the cap would rise at certain clip, but then covid happened.

I bet that Tavares had a huge positive effect on the Leafs as a veteran elite player. It's only now that they might wish it could disappear. Although he's good this year.
 
Mr Positive said:
Pietrangelo is basically the only main ufa D who was available. It was very unlikely he'd end up in Toronto with taxes and covid rules. At the very least, letting Tavares sign elsewhere on the hope an elite D would hit ufa and sign there is bad gambling. In this time he added Brodie and Muzzin. Keeping Hyman is a genuine loss that could have been prevented but he's a complementary winger (albeit a great one). As for goalies, there also wasn't a truly good one that was or would be available. Dubas has done a good job of cycling through very good bets at goalie. It makes to try things at that position.
It may be true that signing any forward approaching 30 isn't smart. In that way, you're right but what team out there has been truly smart enough to avoid an elite player because of how the contract might age in the 2nd half of it?

Also if we are talking about smart bets at the time, that one was made with the assumption that the cap would rise at certain clip, but then covid happened.

I bet that Tavares had a huge positive effect on the Leafs as a veteran elite player. It's only now that they might wish it could disappear. Although he's good this year.
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For one signing Tavares was ridiculous from a cap standpoint. He’s not a top 5 forward in the game but he’s paid like one. It also put them in a terrible negotiating situation with their big 3 young guys and all those contract negotiations went terribly. The only 10+ million dollar signings ever to not give max term are Marner and Matthews. They didn’t need another high end forward and they spent 11 million dollars on one.

Then he goes and trades for….wait for it….Tyson Barrie. Like the solution to the leafs woes was a pure offensive D. Loses kadri for a year and a bit of Barrie something they again had absolutely no need for what so ever.

This isn’t even mentioning the marleau debacle and what they had to pay to dump him. The absurd overpayment for nick foligno to put them over the top and the bad drafting.

Dubas has objectively been a terrible GM. No concept of what the team needs.
 
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Whether or not Tavares has played like an $11,000,000 player is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that they already had two other forwards making $11,000,000, and therefore another $11,000,000 forward wasn't a very smart way to construct a roster.
 
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MessierII said:
For one signing Tavares was ridiculous from a cap standpoint. He’s not a top 5 forward in the game but he’s paid like one. It also put them in a terrible negotiating situation with their big 3 young guys and all those contract negotiations went terribly. The only 10+ million dollar signings ever to not give max term are Marner and Matthews. They didn’t need another high end forward and they spent 11 million dollars on one.

Then he goes and trades for….wait for it….Tyson Barrie. Like the solution to the leafs woes was a pure offensive D. Loses kadri for a year and a bit of Barrie something they again had absolutely no need for what so ever.

This isn’t even mentioning the marleau debacle and what they had to pay to dump him. The absurd overpayment for nick foligno to put them over the top and the bad drafting.

Dubas has objectively been a terrible GM. No concept of what the team needs.
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The poor negotiation with those guys is a possible weakness there, but even there I'm skeptical. Fans are routinely assuming new signings are overpaid. Even there I doubt it would be a huge overpayment

As for the moves you mention after that, you're picking the worst of them. He's done what a lot of GMs who need to shake things up do. He's being aggressive. When it comes to these side moves he's done a lot of good ones too. Any GM who has a mandate to be aggressive will have flubs in there
 
Call the Leafs 5th string goalie up.

Kallgren lost to SJ, Anaheim & Arizona and didn't put .900 goaltending up against any of those offensively-challenged teams.

1.) Samsonov
2.) Murray - Injured
3.) Woll - Injured
4.) Kallgren - can't put up a .900 against bottom feeders
5.) ?
 
SnipeShowJB11 said:
I always wonder why I never ever ever see Matthews and Marner split up. Is Keefe just lazy? He changes one guy on the 2nd line and that's about it.

Anaheim will be a good tonic for TO. Guaranteed win night.
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Couldn’t beat this crappy team with a free penalty shot and an overturned goal lmao
 
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