Toronto has scored 11PPGs since Marner injury

[ACC1224]

The penalty kill was awesome last night including Marner on the PK……where he belongs

This thread is discussing the #1 PP.

 

[Racer88]

At the end of the day do you realize how silly it sounds to be arguing about which unit is better? Does it really matter at the end of the day? As long as the team wins and one of the units is scoring to keep the metric up does it honestly matter?

if the first unit never scored again on the PP but we won a cup because we had a ton of secondary scoring, would it matter? They are all one team

I 100% agree that at the end of the day the win is everything and I totally enjoyed the win. I was simply responding to a posters lame attempt to point out that Willy make a mistake on the PP in an attempt to deflect away from the fact that Marner had a bad night on the PP.
On the PK I love Marner there. He is our Best PK’er

 

[Gary Nylund]

hes not overpaid and in the next 2-3 years some other bozo GM is going to pay someone who’s not as good as him more than the 10.93 he’s getting and the contract won’t even be an issue anymore. Same thing happened with Nylander. It’s how contracts work, you don’t get paid for potential, you get paid for what you do in that moment in time and at that moment in time he outproduced Matthews the last two years of his ELC, he got 90+ points (something no leaf since Mats Sundin has done) and was the leafs leading scorer, it wasn’t an unreasonable ask. Just because other players took less than what they deserve doesn’t mean Mitch had to.

Of course he's overpaid. Nylander got a fair price and we're lucky that in his case, the best case scenario seems to be unfolding which is that he reaches his maximum potential and outperforms his contract. Because Marner got overpaid, the best case scenario is that he reaches his maximum potential and earns his pay but there is zero chance that he outperforms that contract. Any contract where the best case scenario is break even and there is no upside is a mistake, period.

What some other bozo GM does in the future doesn't change the simple fact that Marner was overpaid. Dubas had some leverage, he didn't use it and the result was that Marner got paid as if he was a UFA instead of a RFA. I like Dubas, everyone makes mistakes but pretending that the Marner contract wasn't a mistake is ridiculous, it was an obvious mistake from the moment it was signed and it is by far, the most obvious mistake that Dubas has made.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Did y'all just spend an entire Sunday afternoon micro-analyzing last night's powerplay opportunities?

 

[Racer88]

This thread is discussing the #1 PP.

My mistake. I thought you were referring to last nights game.
By in large the PP wasn’t great last night. The 1st unit was no where near as crisp or dynamic as there were while MM was injured.
The 2nd PP unit was high energy and managed to pot one

 

[ACC1224]

My mistake. I thought you were referring to last nights game.
By in large the PP wasn’t great last night. The 1st unit was no where near as crisp or dynamic as there were while MM was injured.
The 2nd PP unit was high energy and managed to pot one

Right so as a unit they were all poor. I don’t believe anyone feels Marner played well on the PP, none of them did.

 

[francis246]

Of course he's overpaid. Nylander got a fair price and we're lucky that in his case, the best case scenario seems to be unfolding which is that he reaches his maximum potential and outperforms his contract. Because Marner got overpaid, the best case scenario is that he reaches his maximum potential and earns his pay but there is zero chance that he outperforms that contract. Any contract where the best case scenario is break even and there is no upside is a mistake, period.

What some other bozo GM does in the future doesn't change the simple fact that Marner was overpaid. Dubas had some leverage, he didn't use it and the result was that Marner got paid as if he was a UFA instead of a RFA. I like Dubas, everyone makes mistakes but pretending that the Marner contract wasn't a mistake is ridiculous, it was an obvious mistake from the moment it was signed and it is by far, the most obvious mistake that Dubas has made.

i would have liked to see him bridged but honestly Dubas was screwed from the start. Could you imagine what Matthews and Marner’s post bridged deals would be? Probably higher if we were using pacing or converting their shorten seasons to over 82 game paces. like many people like to do. Like I’ve mentioned before no one in any league gets paid for the future or playoffs, you normally get paid for regular season performance. So I don’t really think it was a mistake, it was a gamble by Dubas give them the money now as opposed to bridging and getting fcked later. Only time will tell, I do think they are capable of having a deep cup run and the contracts really aren’t going to be an issue

 

[Racer88]

Right so as a unit they were all poor. I don’t believe anyone feels Marner played well on the PP, none of them did.

Notsince67 sure does. According to him Marner can do no wrong

 

[Throw More Waffles]

you don’t actually believe this do you? I think the fans 100% make a bigger deal about contracts and come up with narratives about contracts. I don’t think the players, coaches or GM’s give a flying shit once the contract has been signed. They don’t need to justify the contract it’s not going anywhere, I think they have Mitch there because they believe he’s effective there and a good offensive player. Not because he’s making 11 million.

The 3 most important aspects of an NHL gm are team success, contracts, drafting (probably in that order) . That's how they are evaluated. Specifically. The team hasn't won a playoff round... so that's a strike. So the next most important comparison would be how good the player contracts are. Dubas is 1 more 1st round loss away from likely being fired. When ownership looks at the causes of the losing culture, they will 100% damn well look at our players contracts in relation to direct comparables.

Dubas is fighting for his job. Marner performing less well than far more cheaper comparables (Aho, Rantanen) is another strike against Dubas. He needs his overpaid players to perform much better than their far cheaper direct comparables. The end. His job is on the line. So Marner will be on pp1. There is literally nothing that will change things.

 

[francis246]

Coaches probably don’t care about the price tag on the player but absolutely GM’s do. Some GM’s live or die based on the types of contracts they sign. Contract can easily define the type of team you can build.

It’s not true, otherwise there would be a shit ton of overpayed players being force fed top minutes and extra PP time but that doesn’t happen in pro sports. They just bury you or eventually find a way to move you. Name 3 players in the NHL where that narrative is true. Again another made up maple leafs fan hysteria

 

[francis246]

The 3 most important aspects of an NHL gm are team success, contracts, drafting (probably in that order) . That's how they are evaluated. Specifically. The team hasn't won a playoff round... so that's a strike. So the next most important comparison would be how good the player contracts are. Dubas is 1 more 1st round loss away from likely being fired. When ownership looks at the causes of the losing culture, they will 100% damn well look at our players contracts in relation to direct comparables.

Dubas is fighting for his job. Marner performing less well than far more cheaper comparables (Aho, Rantanen) is another strike against Dubas. He needs his overpaid players to perform much better than their far cheaper direct comparables. The end. His job is on the line. So Marner will be on pp1. There is literally nothing that will change things.

I’m not a Dubas lover but even I’m not that naive to actually believe he’s going anywhere. I don’t believe Dubas’ job is really in jeopardy. I think Ownership believes in him, Shanahan believes in him. Being a Canadian GM is one of the safest jobs in all of the NHL.

 

[Racer88]

It’s not true, otherwise there would be a shit ton of overpayed players being force fed top minutes and extra PP time but that doesn’t happen in pro sports. They just bury you or eventually find a way to move you. Name 3 players in the NHL where that narrative is true. Again another made up maple leafs fan hysteria

You certainly are entitled to your opinion however that doesn’t mean you are right 100% of the time just like I’m not right 100% of the time..
I absolutely think it happens short term to try to get the value out of a player however eventually you are correct they will bury or try to move that player. It just takes longer the higher the price

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I’m not a Dubas lover but even I’m not that naive to actually believe he’s going anywhere. I don’t believe Dubas’ job is really in jeopardy. I think Ownership believes in him, Shanahan believes in him. Being a Canadian GM is one of the safest jobs in all of the NHL.

I think mlse will be on the fence about firing Dubas if the leafs lose in the first round again. They will heavily debate it and it will be close. Some things that will be considered in the equation are the contracts he gave to the big 4.

I also think Dubas and Babcock were very divided on the usage of the big 4. And I believe Dubas's guy (Keefe) was brought in to see through Dubas's vision.

Marner will be on pp1 no matter what as long as Dubas is GM.

 

[francis246]

You certainly are entitled to your opinion however that doesn’t mean you are right 100% of the time just like I’m not right 100% of the time..
I absolutely think it happens short term to try to get the value out of a player however eventually you are correct they will bury or try to move that player. It just takes longer the higher the price

alright, if you can’t name any players outside of Marner it’s probably not happening in the way your suggesting it is

 

[francis246]

I think mlse will be on the fence about firing Dubas if the leafs lose in the first round again. They will heavily debate it and it will be close. Some things that will be considered in the equation are the contracts he gave to the big 4.

I also think Dubas and Babcock were very divided on the usage of the big 4. And I believe Dubas's guy (Keefe) was brought in to see through Dubas's vision.

Marner will be on pp1 no matter what as long as Dubas is GM.

i think Marner will be on PP1 no matter who the GM is because he’s a dynamic offensive player. I can see where you’re coming from though, so it’s not completely illogical to conceive a conversation such as “we are paying him 11 million, he better be on PP1” has been had more than once. I just think it has more to do with what they believe Marner can bring as a player as opposed to his contract but who knows that belief internally could have changed in recent times

 

[Racer88]

alright, if you can’t name any players outside of Marner it’s probably not happening in the way your suggesting it is

It would be next to impossible to find any measurable data on something like that however that doesn’t mean It doesn’t happen. Not everything in this world is nicely packaged in neat rows

 

[ShaneFalco]

hes not overpaid and in the next 2-3 years some other bozo GM is going to pay someone who’s not as good as him more than the 10.93 he’s getting and the contract won’t even be an issue anymore. Same thing happened with Nylander. It’s how contracts work, you don’t get paid for potential, you get paid for what you do in that moment in time and at that moment in time he outproduced Matthews the last two years of his ELC, he got 90+ points (something no leaf since Mats Sundin has done) and was the leafs leading scorer, it wasn’t an unreasonable ask. Just because other players took less than what they deserve doesn’t mean Mitch had to.

He made his bed so now he's more than open to being critiqued - like no pp goals in 100+ games which must be some kind of record and he's been a no show in the playoffs. You can count on a shot over the glass though

 

[ToneDog]

If Nick Ritchie or Mik were on the #1 PP and hadn't scored in.over 100 games fans woukd be all over them. Somehow 16 gets a free pass with some bc he's "not a goal scorer" at 11.mill.
Same people will say he's not overpaid

Marner not scoring a PP goal in almost 2 calendar years is not the problem. The problem is that our PP is limp when he (an Rielly) are on it together because both are not threats to score. I believe the Leafs scored PP goals in the 6 games he missed. He'll get some rope after returning from injury but if the PP with him back on it sputters for any length of time, the answer will be clear.

 

[francis246]

Nope. Should have held firm at 9, or maybe 9.5 for 7 years. The contract was ridiculous from the moment it was signed.



Try just "Paul" instead of "Paul Marner", I think I've gotten away with that one once or twice.

LOL didn’t Dubas say no to the 9x8 contract at first?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Marner not scoring a PP goal in almost 2 calendar years is not the problem. The problem is that our PP is limp when he (an Rielly) are on it together because both are not threats to score. I believe the Leafs scored PP goals in the 6 games he missed. He'll get some rope after returning from injury but if the PP with him back on it sputters for any length of time, the answer will be clear.

To some

 

[Racer88]

i think Marner will be on PP1 no matter who the GM is because he’s a dynamic offensive player. I can see where you’re coming from though, so it’s not completely illogical to conceive a conversation such as “we are paying him 11 million, he better be on PP1” has been had more than once. I just think it has more to do with what they believe Marner can bring as a player as opposed to his contract but who knows that belief internally could have changed in recent times

This is point that I have been trying to make

 

[Notsince67]

LOL didn’t Dubas say no to the 9x8 contract at first?

Wasnt even 9.
Given Columbus approached the Marners agent with feelers out for an offer sheet, Marner definitively left money on the table by not even entertaining the offer. For those who think differently, it was widely reported that they did approach and it was widely known that due to draft pick restrictions, the only offer could have been in excess of 10.5mm. Likely over 11. Kid gave the team a home town discount. Dubas was lucky not to get burned by more due to his stupidity.

 

[Canadian Finn]

Marner gave the team a hometown discount?

amazing.

This board is always entertaining.

 

[Maria Sharapova]

mentioned it before earlier in this thread, I dgaf bc Marner isn’t a scorer. His role is to create opportunities for the other guys to score. That’s been his job since day one it’s how he played in junior if you watched any of his games, he has never been a prolific goal scorer so to expect that from him now is on you. It’s why no one from the leafs organization bitches about it, because they don’t have that expectation, it’s only HF boards fans who do and thank God the organization doesn’t panic when we have the #2 PP in the league.

Marner isn’t a perfect player but people bitching about the power play last night need to get a grip

No doubt he’s a great playmaker but he’s in a prime shooting spot so this is a mistake if he doesn’t improve this facet of his game. It makes it so Matthews is relied on so heavily and an easy target for coverage because a non threatening point shot / shot from other side of the ice is non existent. If we didn’t have a player who thrives in that roll on the pp it would make sense to just hope he adapts cause Marner is very skilled but. Nylander is just sitting on his hands it’s not really fair.

 

[Gary Nylund]

LOL didn’t Dubas say no to the 9x8 contract at first?

I don't have any inside info but I think you might be referring to rumours about what went on a year before the actual signing. Regardless of what happened back then, the contract when signed was an overpayment.