Toronto has scored 11PPGs since Marner injury

[zeke]

Let's take a look at how accurate your eyes and claims actually are.

1. First off, it was 4.25 PPs. The last one got cut short when Tavares fumbled the puck and then took a penalty, and then the top unit didn't get any time for the one in the 3rd.

2. As for your claim that Mitch had "by far the most touches" and "Tavares and Nylander barely touched the puck", I went back and counted in-zone touches:

Matthews: 25
Marner: 15
Rielly: 13
Tavares: 11
Nylander: 10

As you can see, Matthews actually had by far the most touches, and none of the other 4 were that far off each other. I'm surprised you missed Nylander passing to nobody multiple times to lose in-zone possession, and Tavares fumbling the puck, colliding with Matthews, and taking a penalty.

3. As for your claim that Marner was the "only guy with space to shoot" and he "wouldn't shoot", I also went back and looked through for that. Matthews had the most shot attempts and shots that got through to the goalie. Marner also wasn't afraid to shoot. He made 4 shot attempts; 1 hit the net, 2 were blocked or deflected (because contrary to your claim, the opposition does not give him any significant space or lanes), and 1 missed the net.

Our two best chances actually came off Marner passes. One where the puck deflected off the tip of the goalie's stick, just past Tavares in the crease, who would have had a tap-in, and one where he passed to Matthews in the slot for a bang-bang slot shot and rebound shot.

4. As for your claim that he "messed up a couple zone entries", I couldn't find a single one. In fact, I counted 7 zone entries and all were successful. 3 by Matthews, 3 by Nylander, and 1 by Marner; often coming off initial passes from Marner or Rielly.

And once we were in the zone, let's take a look at why we lost the zone...

-Tavares lost face-off
-Tavares lost face-off and subsequent board battle
-Tavares lost the puck trying to deke
-Tavares fumbled the puck and then took a penalty
-Matthews missed his pass off a board battle
-Matthews pass intercepted for a 2 on 1 the other way
-Nylander bad pass to point
-Nylander bad pass to nobody
-Marner pass deflected, cleared as Matthews and Tavares collide with each other
-Marner missed shot

Conclusion: Your eyes aren't nearly as accurate as you think they are, and your claims singling out and blaming Marner for our top unit not scoring last night are ridiculous. They've been off for weeks, half the team is coming back from Covid and/or injuries, and they all looked rusty, so it's pretty silly to be drawing conclusions at all from like 4 minutes of PP time last night, but if we're going to point fingers, there's a lot to point at before we get to Marner.

you actually might be right that in strict touches Matthews got more, because matthews moves the puck so quickly. and i'm not surprised that you neglected to note that zone entry you blamed on tavares, it was Mitch that made the poor decision to pass the puck into a bottleneck at the blueline. I'm also not surprised that you take zero account of the time and space each player has while on the puck - something which is directly related to mitch's lack of shot danger.

But instead of useless arguments about this - here's an offer: get the videos of each PP in this game into a format where we can watch and break them down together with screen shots. And of course some of the more recent PPs when Mitch was out. And we'll see if we can spot the difference.

 

[Gabriel426]

Dekes Vs Zeke. That’s going to be PPV materials

 

[ULF_55]

Does anyone know the stat for Tavares' faceoff percentage to open up PPs? I feel like that is pretty low, I swear it seems like he'll lose maybe 3 out of every 4.

NHL Stats

marner was in the line-up last night.
PP scored last night.

 

[Gallagbi]

Does anyone know the stat for Tavares' faceoff percentage to open up PPs? I feel like that is pretty low, I swear it seems like he'll lose maybe 3 out of every 4.

Not the first faceoff specifically, but he's at 64.4% on the PP and 10th in faceoff PP% (I used a 30 faceoff min). Spezza is tops in the league there at 70.3% fwiw.

 

[Gallagbi]

Dekes Vs Zeke. That’s going to be PPV materials

Feels more like a book, or possibly a docuseries.

 

[Dekes For Days]

you actually might be right that in strict touches Matthews got more

Quite a bit more. And pretty evenly distributed among the rest.

i'm not surprised that you neglected to note that zone entry you blamed on tavares, it was Mitch that made the poor decision to pass the puck into a bottleneck at the blueline.

What play are you even talking about? That didn't happen. I didn't even blame a zone entry on Tavares, or discuss Tavares in relation to zone entries at all.

I can only assume you're talking about one of the two times Tavares lost the puck soon after an entry and it was cleared (one off trying to deke, and one off fumbling the puck and then taking a penalty), but even aside from your description of what happened being wrong, the puck was distributed to Tavares from Matthews both of those times, not from Marner...

I'm also not surprised that you take zero account of the time and space each player has while on the puck

I'm not surprised that when your argument based around touches was proven wrong, you just switch to something else, but I actually did note that Matthews got the most shots through, and the amount of time and space given to Marner was not particularly different than anybody else getting touches in the same areas. They still took away space and time and got in lanes to block his shots, like they would anybody else.

 

[zeke]

Quite a bit more. And pretty evenly distributed among the rest.

What play are you even talking about? That didn't happen. I didn't even blame a zone entry on Tavares, or discuss Tavares in relation to zone entries at all.

I can only assume you're talking about one of the two times Tavares lost the puck soon after an entry and it was cleared (one off trying to deke, and one off fumbling the puck and then taking a penalty), but even aside from your description of what happened being wrong, the puck was distributed to Tavares from Matthews both of those times, not from Marner...

I'm not surprised that when your argument based around touches was proven wrong, you just switch to something else, but I actually did note that Matthews got the most shots through, and the amount of time and space given to Marner was not particularly different than anybody else getting touches in the same areas. They still took away space and time and got in lanes to block his shots, like they would anybody else.

You can continue to say things others don't see.

Or we could do show and tell.

Up to you.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Should just trade Marner

 

[Gary Nylund]

Dekes Vs Zeke. That’s going to be PPV materials

Every now and then I peek at the forum on my phone on which I am not logged in - too difficult to post on my phone. I did so a few days ago and holy moley, it's as if these guys get paid by the number of keystrokes or something. Energizer Bunny, meet Energizer Bunny.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You can continue to say things others don't see.
Or we could do show and tell.
Up to you.

Ah yes, the ol' schtick of making inaccurate claims, and then when somebody fact checks you and does a pretty in-depth and easily verifiable breakdown showing the specific things you mentioned to be untrue, ignore it, change the argument, appeal to the opinions of a small, vocal group with pre-existing biases against Marner, and demand formatted clips of all of the PPs and an extensive screenshot breakdown to continue the discussion.

I'll just assume that because you didn't provide an explanation of which play you were talking about regarding Tavares, Marner, and the supposed entry, you realized you messed up in your recollection. Which should probably give you a second thought to the accuracy of the things you're seeing and remembering, and how you're being affected by internal biases.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

NHL Stats

marner was in the line-up last night.
PP scored last night.

Not the 1st unit though. He is a dog shit player.

 

[zeke]

Ah yes, the ol' schtick of making inaccurate claims, and then when somebody fact checks you and does a pretty in-depth and easily verifiable breakdown showing the specific things you mentioned to be untrue, ignore it, change the argument, appeal to the opinions of a small, vocal group with pre-existing biases against Marner, and demand formatted clips of all of the PPs and an extensive screenshot breakdown to continue the discussion.

I'll just assume that because you didn't provide an explanation of which play you were talking about regarding Tavares, Marner, and the supposed entry, you realized you messed up in your recollection. Which should probably give you a second thought to the accuracy of the things you're seeing and remembering, and how you're being affected by internal biases.

Your opinion is an opinion, not a fact check.

We can watch it together and try to come to some sort of agreement, in front of everyone.

I'm willing to put myself out on that limb. I'll spend that time together - but not on this useless tit for tat.

But it's up to you.

 

[francis246]

Some like to look at the bigger picture.

the big picture is we won. Plain and simple, who the f*** cares. We still have the 2nd best PP in the league clicking at about 30%. Keep complaining about nothing. Our PP is fine. If there is any change to be made it’s probably switch Nylander and Marner’s spot. But that’s about it.

 

[francis246]

Ah yes, the ol' schtick of making inaccurate claims, and then when somebody fact checks you and does a pretty in-depth and easily verifiable breakdown showing the specific things you mentioned to be untrue, ignore it, change the argument, appeal to the opinions of a small, vocal group with pre-existing biases against Marner, and demand formatted clips of all of the PPs and an extensive screenshot breakdown to continue the discussion.

I'll just assume that because you didn't provide an explanation of which play you were talking about regarding Tavares, Marner, and the supposed entry, you realized you messed up in your recollection. Which should probably give you a second thought to the accuracy of the things you're seeing and remembering, and how you're being affected by internal biases.

bingo!

 

[francis246]

Not the 1st unit though. He is a dog shit player.

can’t wait for Marner to hold that cup with the leafs one day. Some people won’t even be able to enjoy it. He’s a dog shit player yet he’s out produced Matthews since entering the league LMAO.

 

[zeke]

the big picture is we won. Plain and simple, who the f*** cares. We still have the 2nd best PP in the league clicking at about 30%. Keep complaining about nothing. Our PP is fine. If there is any change to be made it’s probably switch Nylander and Marner’s spot. But that’s about it.

Why do I care?

Simple.

Last year:

PP 1st 28gms: 13.55gf/60, #1
PP 2nd 28gms: 2.55gf/60, #30
PP Playoffs: 4.55gf/60, #14 of 16

 

[RunItBackAgain]

yet he’s out produced Matthews since entering the league LMAO.

Thats just wrong. LMAO

Matthews has more points and goals and less games played

 

[Antropovsky]

Let's take a look at how accurate your eyes and claims actually are.

1. First off, it was 4.25 PPs. The last one got cut short when Tavares fumbled the puck and then took a penalty, and then the top unit didn't get any time for the one in the 3rd.

2. As for your claim that Mitch had "by far the most touches" and "Tavares and Nylander barely touched the puck", I went back and counted in-zone touches:

Matthews: 25
Marner: 15
Rielly: 13
Tavares: 11
Nylander: 10

As you can see, Matthews actually had by far the most touches, and none of the other 4 were that far off each other. I'm surprised you missed Nylander passing to nobody multiple times to lose in-zone possession, and Tavares fumbling the puck, colliding with Matthews, and taking a penalty.

3. As for your claim that Marner was the "only guy with space to shoot" and he "wouldn't shoot", I also went back and looked through for that. Matthews had the most shot attempts and shots that got through to the goalie. Marner also wasn't afraid to shoot. He made 4 shot attempts; 1 hit the net, 2 were blocked or deflected (because contrary to your claim, the opposition does not give him any significant space or lanes), and 1 missed the net.

Our two best chances actually came off Marner passes. One where the puck deflected off the tip of the goalie's stick, just past Tavares in the crease, who would have had a tap-in, and one where he passed to Matthews in the slot for a bang-bang slot shot and rebound shot.

4. As for your claim that he "messed up a couple zone entries", I couldn't find a single one. In fact, I counted 7 zone entries and all were successful. 3 by Matthews, 3 by Nylander, and 1 by Marner; often coming off initial passes from Marner or Rielly.

And once we were in the zone, let's take a look at why we lost the zone...

-Tavares lost face-off
-Tavares lost face-off and subsequent board battle
-Tavares lost the puck trying to deke
-Tavares fumbled the puck and then took a penalty
-Matthews missed his pass off a board battle
-Matthews pass intercepted for a 2 on 1 the other way
-Nylander bad pass to point
-Nylander bad pass to nobody
-Marner pass deflected, cleared as Matthews and Tavares collide with each other
-Marner missed shot

Conclusion: Your eyes aren't nearly as accurate as you think they are, and your claims singling out and blaming Marner for our top unit not scoring last night are ridiculous. They've been off for weeks, half the team is coming back from Covid and/or injuries, and they all looked rusty, so it's pretty silly to be drawing conclusions at all from like 4 minutes of PP time last night, but if we're going to point fingers, there's a lot to point at before we get to Marner.

2:53 mark, is this the one shot Marner got on goal on the pp? It's a perfectly executed play by the leafs, the puck is passed to Matthew's, he draws multiple Sens to him, Matthew's returns the pass to Rielly who instantly sends the puck the opposite side to Marner. Instead of catching the goalie and the sens players moving he holds the puck and coasts in, letting sens players get into blocking position and let's the goalie get to his knees and cover the little net left available. Marner finally takes a low percentage shot trying trying pick top corner short side - the puck is saved and covered. Marner assumes his (what should be patented) hanging head disappointment body language.

@Dekes For Days you said when you rewatched the video Marner never was given any significant space or lanes. You don't think the play at 2:54 was alot of space or a lane?

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Marner has also never outpaced Matthew’s last season numbers which was 104 points in a full season.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Your opinion is an opinion, not a fact check.

What I provided was a fact check, showing that your claims that you never supported in the first place were factually untrue. You're welcome to support your claims or double-check those facts, if you have any disagreement, but all you have brought so far is a faulty recollection of a play that I had literally just described for you, in order to blame Marner for something he wasn't even involved in.

 

[francis246]

Thats just wrong. LMAO

Matthews has more points and goals and less games played

I stand corrected, Matthews has recently taken over 384 points to Marner's 379 points. For a while there Marner was out producing him in points

 

[francis246]

Why do I care?

Simple.

Last year:

PP 1st 28gms: 13.55gf/60, #1
PP 2nd 28gms: 2.55gf/60, #30
PP Playoffs: 4.55gf/60, #14 of 16

again those numbers have nothing to do with Marner as the root cause, last I checked there are 5 players on the unit. The numbers you posted don't say Marner's name. It's all of them, It's kind of crazy to me that Matthews gets no hate when he did dick all last playoffs as well.

 

[zeke]

What I provided was a fact check, showing that your claims that you never supported in the first place were factually untrue. You're welcome to support your claims or double-check those facts, if you have any disagreement, but all you have brought so far is a faulty recollection of a play that I had literally just described for you, in order to blame Marner for something he wasn't even involved in.

Your opinion is not a fact check.

I can keep repeating what I saw, and you can keep repeating what you saw.

Or we can watch it together and come to some agreement.

Up to you.

 

[Antropovsky]

Your opinion is not a fact check.

I can keep repeating what I saw, and you can keep repeating what you saw.

Or we can watch it together and come to some agreement.

Up to you.

Seems reasonable to me as an outsider.. I'd appreciate it broken down myself.

 

[zeke]

again those numbers have nothing to do with Marner, last I checked there are 5 players on the unit. The numbers you posted don't say Marner's name.

The numbers say only that this group started off just as hot on the PP last year, and then became absolutely horrendous the rest of the way and helped crash us out of the playoffs.

So the fact that we have been good again through 30gms this year is not enough for some of us to be happy with the PP. We think there's a predictability to the PP that could easily pop up and bite us again, especially against the elite teams we'll be facing in the playoffs.