Confirmed with Link: Toronto gets Campbell and Clifford for Moore, 2nd (cond) & 3rd (Part II)

[Rogie]

I posted Dubas' quote saying that he knows that role is needed, but the skill in the player is the difference.

Yes, I don't know where you post is, can't really find it, but, from the presser, my take was that, Dubas, while acknowledging hitting and physicality play a role, i just thought he is trying to stay clear of being labelled as endorsing 'fighting', I think he said something along the lines, we would never ask anyone to do that - kind of like that, sort of, so,

but, if you are thinking I am suggesting that I think Martin is AS skilled or close to as skilled as Clifford, then, yeah, i don't see much difference between the two. They have about the same amount of points in their nhl careers, and Martin is still scoring about the same pace as Clifford, so, I think Martin's a slower skater, but, he maybe plays his position well, up and down, knows his weaknesses, stays on top of the play, etc etc, so, he makes up for his slower skating, but, both are skilled 'ENOUGH' I think is what I think.

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

This is what we had, then gave up. Then traded for!



It's 2020. Fighting is no longer needed. Our powerplay will be our enforcer...

lol.

Blues have 4 fighting majors this year.
Pittsburgh has 6
Washington has 11
Anaheim has 21
Ottawa and NJD have 14 each.

Leafs have 3.

What conclusion are we drawing from this?

 

[Bluelines]

What is the Holl story?

Coach does not like his game, makes him a scratch for 70 games, next season Holl becomes a legit NHLer.

 

[saltming]

Yes, I don't know where you post is, can't really find it, but, from the presser, my take was that, Dubas, while acknowledging hitting and physicality play a role, i just thought he is trying to stay clear of being labelled as endorsing 'fighting', I think he said something along the lines, we would never ask anyone to do that - kind of like that, sort of, so,

but, if you are thinking I am suggesting that I think Martin is AS skilled or close to as skilled as Clifford, then, yeah, i don't see much difference between the two. They have about the same amount of points in their nhl careers, and Martin is still scoring about the same pace as Clifford, so, I think Martin's a slower skater, but, he maybe plays his position well, up and down, knows his weaknesses, stays on top of the play, etc etc, so, he makes up for his slower skating, but, both are skilled 'ENOUGH' I think is what I think.

Here is the quote and the link if you want

“He’ll make a big impact here right away, knowing his personality,” Dubas said Thursday. “If you have those elements to your game that you’re physical and competitive and you have a presence to you, you have to be able to play.
“He can play — and those guys aren’t in abundance anymore. I think that’s why when they’re available, the cost is pretty high.”
Maple Leafs' Dubas believes Clifford trade will make 'big impact' - Sportsnet.ca

Again I think the difference is in their possession numbers. Clifford is a lot better there than Martin and imo this translates into the way he plays the game vs the way martin plays the game. This is important because it will make one player look better while helping the team play the way it was designed.
That's what I believe is the difference in the players and why Dubas targeted Clifford

 

[Bluelines]

same stats as each other i think you can infer 'worth' from that no? Martin is overpaid and we decided he wasnt worth it (which he is not) Yeah to me that type of player is a $1M player, oh we are paying clifford $800K? ok then. Dubas et al may think $1.6 is fine or $2M who knows. Matt martin want in the team and was overpaid by lou so he was moved its pretty simple.

The person who pays me $1000 for one joke is clearly an idiot and im laughing all the way to the bank as i was able to fleece this person. Matt Martin probably laughing all the way to bank he was able to con old man lou.

What if that 1000 spent on one joke makes me so happy I relax at work and because of my relaxed mood I make great decisions and I make $20k in one day... it's relative, what is a lot of money to one person, is not to the next. Again money and the value of money is relative to the person spending it.

 

[Bluelines]

It's sad though this thread about one fourth liner has become a pissing contest over 2 fourth liners.... PEOPLE FOURTH LINERS... like what is the point?

 

[saltming]

Coach does not like his game, makes him a scratch for 70 games, next season Holl becomes a legit NHLer.

To be fair Holl was not quite there last year. He was good enough to play, but he is better this year.
I'm a Holl fan. I've argued in the prospect marlies thread that he could be a NHL player from before he was called up, but he was just ok in his positioning last year and would react to the plays (that's the biggest upgrade he's done), he reads the plays way better and preemptively gets in position.

 

[saltming]

It's sad though this thread about one fourth liner has become a pissing contest over 2 fourth liners.... PEOPLE FOURTH LINERS... like what is the point?

It is a good sign that your team is good when this is all we have to debate

 

[TMLeafer]

Mitch keeping his new bodyguard happy!

He has to. He makes more than all the other 3 combined

 

[Mess]

Cliffords hits are way down the last couple of years even as his point production crept up. Age? Maturity? Worse team around him makes him change his game to do more?

It will be interesting to see if the 14 hits per 60 guy is still there. I am not expecting a big impact from a 10:00 a night guy but Moore got more TOI per game this season than Clifford has ever gotten and produced nothing. Its hard not to think his offense will do as much as his ability to fight.

Guys like Clifford can change momentum in a game with a big hit, or raising the intensity level via their play, drawing teammates into the battle.

I don't really think his offense is what is being sought here. Its more about creating turnovers via separating players from the puck or causing them to make mistakes when hearing footsteps barreling down on them and trying to avoid contact.

He also might draw more PPs for the Leafs through retaliation penalties drawn via being physical and the opposition not liking it.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Kyle Clifford is the type of player who's impact can't be fully measured by analytical data. He's an old school, in your face, heart and soul player that brings so many intangible qualities to the team.

 

[Merrrlin]

He has to. He makes more than all the other 3 combined

It’s hilarious how often people shoehorn this into any leaf related discussion.

 

[Egghead1999]

...
It's 2020. Fighting is no longer needed. Our powerplay will be our enforcer...

lol.

The problem is that leafs need ref to call the pp first

 

[Leafsfan74]

$10M+ U.S a year. He better be paying!

 

[Walshy7]

To be fair Holl was not quite there last year. He was good enough to play, but he is better this year.
I'm a Holl fan. I've argued in the prospect marlies thread that he could be a NHL player from before he was called up, but he was just ok in his positioning last year and would react to the plays (that's the biggest upgrade he's done), he reads the plays way better and preemptively gets in position.

but what if that issue was a case of not getting regular games to string together. Is it a coincidence that this year, after getting flame after game in the lineup he showed his true worth? Babcock I believe was too quick to judge him and went with others over him despite terrible performance (marincin?)

 

[Lightsol]

It is a good sign that your team is good when this is all we have to debate

I mean, this place has had a CONSTANT 2 year screamfest debate about the damned backup goalie, so...

 

[saltming]

but what if that issue was a case of not getting regular games to string together. Is it a coincidence that this year, after getting flame after game in the lineup he showed his true worth? Babcock I believe was too quick to judge him and went with others over him despite terrible performance (marincin?)

To counter that Holl was getting consistent games to start this year. There was a rotation for maybe the first 10 games, with Holl getting most of them, and then he was a regular on the baseline.
Who was the coach then?
Babcock.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Can’t wait to see Clifford out there. If we could get another guy like him it would be great.

 

[saltming]

I mean, this place has had a CONSTANT 2 year screamfest debate about the damned backup goalie, so...

A bit more important than a 4th line player, but to be fair, there is always something to be complained about on here. If not chat boards would not exist.
My take is thatbits good that we have only the little things to squabble about.

 

[Walshy7]

To counter that Holl was getting consistent games to start this year. There was a rotation for maybe the first 10 games, with Holl getting most of them, and then he was a regular on the baseline.
Who was the coach then?
Babcock.

yeah right but we are talking about last year no? he decided to give him extended games in a row this year when he could have last year and possibly had this last year

 

[nuck]

Coach does not like his game, makes him a scratch for 70 games, next season Holl becomes a legit NHLer.

I think it was more like he dog paddled for 11 games so people soured on him. I don't remember any "free Holl threads" last season, IIRC people here were bashing him pretty good. Also Babs made him a regular this year so was he responsible for demoting him last year or promoting him this year? I think both those decisions were coach and GM. I would also go as far as to say Ceci getting heavy icetime early was at the direction of Dubas as that was his summer add who he could have let walk for the cap space if he chose. It makes sense he needed to know if the guy had real game once he got out of Ottawa. I will blame the Barrie issues on Babcock because the timing was too perfect but I think Holl just seized an opportunity this year that he failed to last season. He looked much better to start this season on a club that was otherwise much better last year.

 

[meefer]

"Shocking" that I am willing to wait and see before saying dubas is amazing or that he messed up again?

Remember the kadri trade? So many leaf fans immediately branded the trade a huge win for dubas. Couple months later and the trade isnt looking nearly as good.

I dont understand why you guys are more supportive of dubas than you are of the team. Its wild.

And a month or two after that 'couple of months later' comment and things have swayed a bit back to the center?

NK: 49 games played, 18 goals, 16 assists, 34 points.
TB: 54 games played, 5 goals, 26 assists, 31 points.
AK: 49/8/13/21
CR: 8/0/2/2

Perhaps not such a lopsided win for Colorado as some think?

 

[nuck]

yeah right but we are talking about last year no? he decided to give him extended games in a row this year when he could have last year and possibly had this last year

But he really wasn't very good last season and they won 8 of their first 11 last year so it looks like they chose the right group. Look at how the club started this season compared to how Holl did. Two different trajectories. Holl didn't just get extended games this year, he won a spot and started the season as a regular.

 

[saltming]

yeah right but we are talking about last year no? he decided to give him extended games in a row this year when he could have last year and possibly had this last year

But that's my point, Holl took a step this year and came out better than he was last year.
He was marincin level last year, but not as good a skater. This year he still can't skate as well as marincin but his reads are great so he has surpassed MM and rightly deserves to be playing regularly.
To me the debate was that he was unjustly sat last year and though I've always been rooting for him I can see why he was not an everyday player last year vs this year

 

[ShaneFalco]

Love it