Confirmed with Link: [TOR/PIT] RW Kapanen, D Lindgren, LW Aberg for '20 1st(15th), LW Rodrigues, C Hallander, D Warsofsky

[Gabriel426]

The thing about having a plan, is if you think its a good plan, you stick with it. Obviously, you need to do a proper analysis, and you need to have people with the knowledge and expertise doing the analysis and preparing the plan.

But, assuming you have covered those steps (above), then you stick to the plan. Rebuilds are very rarely accomplished in just a year or two. The history of the NHL and most other professional (team) sports leagues with a draft and a salary cap teaches us (and management) this.

Anything else but sticking to the plan is simply called a mistake imho. And, now we can see why and must live with the consequences. Cleverness is good, but patience is better.

But the plan was and still is to win the Cup.
I don’t think that changed. The timeline did.

 

[Big Muddy]

But the plan was and still is to win the Cup.
I don’t think that changed. The timeline did.

Sentence #1 - Agreed & obvious.
Sentence #2 - Depends on the plan (i.e., patient rebuild), which was the point of my post.

 

[Gallagbi]

No he didn't.

This is what he said:


I don't even understand how you could come up with your quote unless you're purposefully trying to lie.

That's pretty dishonest of him if that's the quote he's referencing

 

[3headeddragon]

Some of my speculation is based directly from Dubas comments after the trade.

Kyle Dubas addressed the media after completing a trade that sent Kasperi Kapanen and Jesper Lindgren to the Pittsburgh Penguins in exchange for the 15th overall draft selection in 2020, Evan Rodrigues, and prospect Filip Hallander.

Dubas: I would say that we are open to keeping the pick, but I think in the spot that we are in with our team right now, we are also open, probably, to moving it if the right deal came along for someone that could help us now.

Q: How long were these discussions in the works? How happy are you to get a first-round pick back in the deal?

Dubas: Our preparations internally have sort of begun since the pandemic started. As the new CBA began to have some solid formation and we knew that the cap was going to be flat, we were looking at our roster and determining where we were going to have to gain the most flexibility possible, or where we could draw from to gain that flexibility.

Once our season ended, we sort of take the temperature of the teams around the league and see where they are at. That was the course it took over the last number of weeks here since we have been out.

We are excited about the first-round pick and Filip Hallander and Evan Rodrigues and David Warsofsky as well. We are happy with it. That said, Kappy is an extremely good NHL player. I don’t think it should be lost that he is going off of our roster. He will be in a great fit in Pittsburgh for them. Our hope is that this works out great for all the teams — for us, for Pittsburgh

Q: With this move, are you still looking for help on defense and more cap flexibility? This is kind of seen as the precursor to some other stuff you might do this summer.

Dubas: Certainly, I don’t think this is going to be it for us as we go along. The key is that we need to gain some flexibility or greater flexibility than what we have. We have got our own business to take care of with Dermott and Mikheyev as restricted free agents. This will give us some space beyond them to sort of address all of the other needs that we feel that we have. Without the flexibility or the space to do so freely, we would be really restricted in what we can do, and this opens it up a little bit for us.

Full report https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2020/08/25/kyle-dubas-on-kasperi-kapanen-trade/

I agree the pick more than likely gets moved, as I said in my response. On the draft floor.

Every team prepared for adjustments when covid 19, no one knew when or if the season would resume. This is known as a standard answer in pro sports.

None what you said addresses the fact that you assumed desperation in this move on the part of Dubas. A GM offers me a first rounder and decent prospect out of the gate for a player making 3.2 mil, hasn't been able to develop chemistry with either of our top two centers, I take it. The first is better currency.

The Leafs have 2 better wingers above him who have been able to develop chemistry.

Maybe I'm being silly maximizing ROI.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

At that time we had Kapanen and no 2020 1st round pick.. Now we have a 1st round pick and no Kapanen already traded. So I'm 1/2 right as Kappy in gone !!

When the dust settles and Kapanan and/or AJ and our 1st in 2020 or 2021 are no longer here when the season starts I'll be witnessing my self fulfilling prophecy coming true.

I'll allow you to remove a small deduction from my clairvoyant skills prediction, if I happen to get the year of the 1st round pick wrong.

PS. However seeing 2020 is a stronger draft year I'd prefer if it were the 2021 1st rounded that was dealt just between you and I.

Just say what you really think ha

 

[Bomber0104]

Does it matter? It could be for mcdavid and you'd find a way to be negative about it .

Nice.

 

[Gabriel426]

Sentence #1 - Agreed & obvious.
Sentence #2 - Depends on the plan (i.e., patient rebuild), which was the point of my post.

That’s the thing though, timeline changes due to development of players. I think we expected AM,MM and Willie to be good but didn’t expect Brown, Hyman, then Kap and AJ to be productive right away. Which in a way it spoiled us about all Marlies Grads, as we expect them to be productive right off the bat without any adjustments to the NHL. I think signing JT signifies the rebuild
is over but at the time of the signing, the rebuild should be over due to the team
finishing with 105pts in the regular season.

 

[Mess]

I agree the pick more than likely gets moved, as I said in my response. On the draft floor.

Every team prepared for adjustments when covid 19, no one knew when or if the season would resume. This is known as a standard answer in pro sports.

None what you said addresses the fact that you assumed desperation in this move on the part of Dubas. A GM offers me a first rounder and decent prospect out of the gate for a player making 3.2 mil, hasn't been able to develop chemistry with either of our top two centers, I take it. The first is better currency.

The Leafs have 2 better wingers above him who have been able to develop chemistry.

Maybe I'm being silly maximizing ROI.

One of the insiders Friedman or someone like that was reporting Dubas was offering Kapanen around the league for a 1st and a prospect and it seems Pitts was the team willing to meet his asking price. It was also mentioned that Dubas has been actively shopping/listening to offers on AJ and Kerfoot etc as he is looking to reshape the roster.

So it seems Dubas is being extremely proactive burning up the phone lines and considering the timing of now during the playoffs with some teams not even in trading mode but rather Cup winning mode, there certainly seems to be some urgency in getting things done. The one making the calls as opposed to sitting back and waiting for the phone to ring is the GM showing more desire to make changes.

Rutherford was probably sitting on the dock of the bay fishing and drinking beer relaxing when his phone was ringing.

I believe of the 3 forwards that Kappy had the most trade value and the best contract so ROI would be the highest.

 

[daner]

I’m not here to bash Kap, I think he has lots of talent, but dude cmon, you get benched for sleeping in or late for practice then shown during a national broadcast in the press box on your phone several times while your mates are playing. Not a good look.

 

[Buds17]

Sentence #1 - Agreed & obvious.
Sentence #2 - Depends on the plan (i.e., patient rebuild), which was the point of my post.

We can certainly debate what defines a 'patient rebuild'. There are/were a number of former first round picks on the team though.

 

[Big Muddy]

That’s the thing though, timeline changes due to development of players. I think we expected AM,MM and Willie to be good but didn’t expect Brown, Hyman, then Kap and AJ to be productive right away. Which in a way it spoiled us about all Marlies Grads, as we expect them to be productive right off the bat without any adjustments to the NHL. I think signing JT signifies the rebuild
is over but at the time of the signing, the rebuild should be over due to the team
finishing with 105pts in the regular season.

Disagree, but don't want to keep beating this point to a pulp either.

 

[Big Muddy]

We can certainly debate what defines a 'patient rebuild'. There are/were a number of former first round picks on the team though.

Absolutely. We had eight top eight overall picks over a 8 year period iirc.

However, I would have liked more good prospect defenders in our pipeline and would have preferred to stay the course (keep patient and draft) until we had them in abundance i.e., better safe than sorry, safety in numbers, etc.

When I think of the Leafs organization, I tend not to think of them as a patient, build through the draft type strategy team. I was enthused during the early rebuild stage, but then we got away from it pretty quickly. JMHO, but it appears to be unfolding that way again from my vantage point. I recognize this opinion will not be popular.

 

[3headeddragon]

One of the insiders Friedman or someone like that was reporting Dubas was offering Kapanen around the league for a 1st and a prospect and it seems Pitts was the team willing to meet his asking price. It was also mentioned that Dubas has been actively shopping/listening to offers on AJ and Kerfoot etc as he is looking to reshape the roster.

So it seems Dubas is being extremely proactive burning up the phone lines and considering the timing of now during the playoffs with some teams not even in trading mode but rather Cup winning mode, there certainly seems to be some urgency in getting things done. The one making the calls as opposed to sitting back and waiting for the phone to ring is the GM showing more desire to make changes.

Rutherford was probably sitting on the dock of the bay fishing and drinking beer relaxing when his phone was ringing.

I believe of the 3 forwards that Kappy had the most trade value and the best contract so ROI would be the highest.

If someone calls me I low ball it, I definitely don't offer the moon. This deal screams desperation but from Rutherford not Dubas.

My issue with your response is the creative narrative of desperation misplaced.

I agree the Leafs are going to make changes in the bottom six by trading those that we can. I believe there will be a surplus of those players available because of the flat cap. (Hopefully there are teams going the trade route for forwards)

With the cap savings they can take advantage of a couple teams and aquire unspectacular but defensively sound defenseman. We may get lucky and get one of these FA.

 

[Mess]

If someone calls me I low ball it, I definitely don't offer the moon. This deal screams desperation but from Rutherford not Dubas.

My issue with your response is the creative narrative of desperation misplaced.

I agree the Leafs are going to make changes in the bottom six by trading those that we can. I believe there will be a surplus of those players available because of the flat cap. (Hopefully there are teams going the trade route for forwards)

With the cap savings they can take advantage of a couple teams and aquire unspectacular but defensively sound defenseman. We may get lucky and get one of these FA.

Rutherford has Crosby and Malkin that clock is ticking on Cup competitiveness. So the timeline to compete now is greater in Pittsburgh as a result based on age of core. He often trades his 1st rounder to build for the now. The time that draft pick in 3-4 is ready to make an impact the compete window is passed. So this deal is in the best interest of his team more so than the GM necessarily.

However while Leafs have the younger core and more time, that isn't true for the GM who needs results now or it will become someone else's issue. Some people I suppose don't believe Dubas is in a make or break year, and I'm not one of them. So needing results now is what lends my belief that desperation and urgency for success is the motivation guiding Dubas decisions this offseason.

 

[Buds17]

Absolutely. We had eight top eight overall picks over a 8 year period iirc.

However, I would have liked more good prospect defenders in our pipeline and would have preferred to stay the course (keep patient and draft) until we had them in abundance i.e., better safe than sorry, safety in numbers, etc.

When I think of the Leafs organization, I tend not to think of them as a patient, build through the draft type strategy team. I was enthused during the early rebuild stage, but then we got away from it pretty quickly. JMHO, but it appears to be unfolding that way again from my vantage point. I recognize this opinion will not be popular.

No doubt this team is built more around forwards. Perhaps the bet being made is that it is easier to move excess offence for defence rather than vice versa? Maybe that process furthers with the trading away of one of the aforementioned former 1st rounders in Kapanen and will be continued through the acquisition of a blueliner via UFA or trade? The bigger contracts on the books represent a window for the team. We'll see where things go from there. (if the team wins in that time frame and/or the players re-sign)

 

[kb]

Just to be clear. I see Zero desperation. Whats desperate about trading from a position of strength,adding a mid first round pick in a decent draft, obtaining a third line center potential prospect in Hallander,adding a veteran offensive defenseman for the Marlies and $3,200,000 cap space.
Robertson left a impression he can possible replace Kappy’ goals and energy on a entry level contract. I think neither Rutherford or Dubas are desperate. Restructuring is a pretty fluid thing for all teams with the special nuances of each rosters makeup.Pittsburgh has just a hair over $9 million cap space and we have a hair under $8 million cap space. Plus it’s the first moves of the off season and they got what they needed plus the jump on everyone. Looks smart to me,not desperate.

The Leafs aren't even close to being in the worst cap situation. St. Louis, Arizona, and Tampa all say hi. It was almost like some kind of agenda is being pushed. I wonder what that could be?

 

[Big Muddy]

No doubt this team is built more around forwards. Perhaps the bet being made is that it is easier to move excess offence for defence rather than vice versa? Maybe that process furthers with the trading away of one of the aforementioned former 1st rounders in Kapanen and will be continued through the acquisition of a blueliner via UFA or trade? The bigger contracts on the books represent a window for the team. We'll see where things go from there. (if the team wins in that time frame and/or the players re-sign)

Re: bolded

I really hope you are right. My gut tells me its the other way around though - excess defenders are easier to convert to good forwards.

But, I am a fan and could be wrong.

 

[Buds17]

Re: bolded

I really hope you are right. My gut tells me its the other way around though - excess defenders are easier to convert to good forwards.

But, I am a fan and could be wrong.

That makes two of us.

A case could probably be made for either approach in helping to bring along a team.

 

[Big Muddy]

Rutherford like Dubas is working from a plan and a perceived short term losing of a deal won’t phase him if he feels it will help him execute his plan.

He bet his job on the core, there should be no denial that he’s not far from the gallows pole if this season results in failure.

I like what he did with the Kapanen trade from an asset management standpoint, (we could get a solid player for the future with 15) but at present, the team isn’t better because of it or even addressed all the issues we’ve discussed. There is still a lot of work to go.

Yep - agreed.

I think Shanny's seat has be be getting a little warm as well, although he could maybe shield himself by firing Dubas if next year is underwhelming. I think things are closing in on Shanny though.

 

[Kiwi]

The Leafs aren't even close to being in the worst cap situation. St. Louis, Arizona, and Tampa all say hi. It was almost like some kind of agenda is being pushed. I wonder what that could be?

Chuck Vancouver into that lot as well, those teams not wanting to spend to the cap (like Pittsburg) are probably feeling a little uncomfortable as well I'd imagine

 

[Big Muddy]

That makes two of us.

A case could probably be made for either approach in helping to bring along a team.

The one thing I've learned over the years is that a team needs 8 good/decent defenders in its system to be successful. Injuries occur often enough and depth is required when that occurs. There's many teams that seem to struggle with this.

 

[3headeddragon]

Rutherford has Crosby and Malkin that clock is ticking on Cup competitiveness. So the timeline to compete now is greater in Pittsburgh as a result based on age of core. He often trades his 1st rounder to build for the now. The time that draft pick in 3-4 is ready to make an impact the compete window is passed. So this deal is in the best interest of his team more so than the GM necessarily.

However while Leafs have the younger core and more time, that isn't true for the GM who needs results now or it will become someone else's issue. Some people I suppose don't believe Dubas is in a make or break year, and I'm not one of them. So needing results now is what lends my belief that desperation and urgency for success is the motivation guiding Dubas decisions this offseason.

You still don't shoot 50 cal at 22 target. He had time before the start of the season to maneuver, he panicked. Dubas just got a deal beyond his wildest dreams.

You can't twist this to reflect badly on him. It's a great deal.

 

[kb]

You still don't shoot 50 cal at 22 target. He had time before the start of the season to maneuver, he panicked. Dubas just got a deal beyond his wildest dreams.

You can't twist this to reflect badly on him. It's a great deal.

Let him be, he's already outed himself with scads of lies and incorrect takes. It's actually comical.

 

[Mess]

You still don't shoot 50 cal at 22 target. He had time before the start of the season to maneuver, he panicked. Dubas just got a deal beyond his wildest dreams.

You can't twist this to reflect badly on him. It's a great deal.

I've never claimed it was a bad trade nor criticized him for making it.

In fact this helps offset the really bad trade he made by dumping Marleau and so recovering the 1st helps soften that.

However I think this is the precursor to more trades to come and I'm not hopeful that draft pick survives if the right trade comes along to strengthen the current team.

Dubas needs results now and dealing away Kapanen for futures and weakening the current team does not improve the team on the ice for next year.

 

[3headeddragon]

Let him be, he's already outed himself with scads of lies and incorrect takes. It's actually comical.

There are a lot on here like that. To many on here that make a statement and can't realize each move must be evaluated individually.

It's self damaging to hate blindly.