Confirmed with Link: [TOR/PIT] RW Kapanen, D Lindgren, LW Aberg for '20 1st(15th), LW Rodrigues, C Hallander, D Warsofsky

[Big Muddy]

Just think they arrived at least one year too early.
.

The thing about having a plan, is if you think its a good plan, you stick with it. Obviously, you need to do a proper analysis, and you need to have people with the knowledge and expertise doing the analysis and preparing the plan.

But, assuming you have covered those steps (above), then you stick to the plan. Rebuilds are very rarely accomplished in just a year or two. The history of the NHL and most other professional (team) sports leagues with a draft and a salary cap teaches us (and management) this.

Anything else but sticking to the plan is simply called a mistake imho. And, now we can see why and must live with the consequences. Cleverness is good, but patience is better.

 

[Big Muddy]

I just had a harrowing thought. What if Kapanen's money is going to re-signing Barrie?

Or Ceci? When Dubas spoke of Ceci, he seemed to support him and talk of him rather positively.

I know it seems like a weird thought, but its a thought.

 

[Big Muddy]

We'd be swimming with assets right now all the way back to when we held on to Grabovski, Kulemin and MacArthur rather than trading them.

We could have gotten returns for JVR, Bozak and Gardiner as well but the team was in a different position at that point. In hindsight they should have done it but at the time, it was a very difficult choice.

Not for a winning organization.

Are you saying we are a "winning organization"? Not sure what your saying (your point).

 

[Mess]

Are you sure it wasn't Rutherford operating in desperation and Dubas going holy shit this deal is to good pass up.

A lot of assumptions and speculations on what someone you don't know is thinking or feeling.

I agree the pick gets traded though, my prediction is on the draft floor.

Some of my speculation is based directly from Dubas comments after the trade.

Kyle Dubas addressed the media after completing a trade that sent Kasperi Kapanen and Jesper Lindgren to the Pittsburgh Penguins in exchange for the 15th overall draft selection in 2020, Evan Rodrigues, and prospect Filip Hallander.

Dubas: I would say that we are open to keeping the pick, but I think in the spot that we are in with our team right now, we are also open, probably, to moving it if the right deal came along for someone that could help us now.

Q: How long were these discussions in the works? How happy are you to get a first-round pick back in the deal?

Dubas: Our preparations internally have sort of begun since the pandemic started. As the new CBA began to have some solid formation and we knew that the cap was going to be flat, we were looking at our roster and determining where we were going to have to gain the most flexibility possible, or where we could draw from to gain that flexibility.

Once our season ended, we sort of take the temperature of the teams around the league and see where they are at. That was the course it took over the last number of weeks here since we have been out.

We are excited about the first-round pick and Filip Hallander and Evan Rodrigues and David Warsofsky as well. We are happy with it. That said, Kappy is an extremely good NHL player. I don’t think it should be lost that he is going off of our roster. He will be in a great fit in Pittsburgh for them. Our hope is that this works out great for all the teams — for us, for Pittsburgh

Q: With this move, are you still looking for help on defense and more cap flexibility? This is kind of seen as the precursor to some other stuff you might do this summer.

Dubas: Certainly, I don’t think this is going to be it for us as we go along. The key is that we need to gain some flexibility or greater flexibility than what we have. We have got our own business to take care of with Dermott and Mikheyev as restricted free agents. This will give us some space beyond them to sort of address all of the other needs that we feel that we have. Without the flexibility or the space to do so freely, we would be really restricted in what we can do, and this opens it up a little bit for us.

Full report https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2020/08/25/kyle-dubas-on-kasperi-kapanen-trade/

 

[Big Muddy]

I think if one was asked to pick the under/over that this pick will be dealt for help for next year the odds would be on the over. IMO

I agree with some of the rumours circulating that Leafs would be willing to shop AJ/Kerfoot + 1st (2020 or 2021) + prospect for top 4 Dman.

Dubas understands the gravity of his situation, and its a reason why during the playoffs, he is already busy making moves like this one getting out in front of other GMs for next year, while strong teams are still deciding who is winning this year's Cup. Call it urgency or call it desperation, but this move based on timing alone stresses the importance and is just a precursor of more to come to reshape next years team that needs to show positive results.

An odd thought that occurred to me is that Dubas was doing some damage control on the PR front to. Not that fans would be the concern for Dubas, but senior management and those above him that he answers to.

 

[ACC1224]

Think this is one of those Opportunities to use Okay Boomer. Not that I'm a fan of it. Lol

Why would you think that?

 

[Morbo]

If anything based on this deal, the desperation came from Rutherfod, and Dubas took advantage.

It's pretty obvious that's the case. Rutherford was the only one willing to cough up a 1st + for what is a pretty mediocre middle sixer(save for speed). And not #26 or whatever, either. An actually decent 1st rounder.

 

[ACC1224]

People are kidding themselves if they don’t think Dubas is in survivor mode. Another year out of the playoffs and he’s done that may not even matter if they don’t win a round when they get back in.

 

[ACC1224]

It's pretty obvious that's the case. Rutherford was the only one willing to cough up a 1st + for what is a pretty mediocre middle sixer(save for speed). And not #26 or whatever, either. An actually decent 1st rounder.

Rutherford like Dubas is working from a plan and a perceived short term losing of a deal won’t phase him if he feels it will help him execute his plan.

 

[Trapper]

People are kidding themselves if they don’t think Dubas is in survivor mode. Another year out of the playoffs and he’s done that may not even matter if they don’t win a round when they get back in.

He bet his job on the core, there should be no denial that he’s not far from the gallows pole if this season results in failure.

I like what he did with the Kapanen trade from an asset management standpoint, (we could get a solid player for the future with 15) but at present, the team isn’t better because of it or even addressed all the issues we’ve discussed. There is still a lot of work to go.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

If anything based on this deal, the desperation came from Rutherfod, and Dubas took advantage.

I think it was a really close deal in terms of circumstances of both teams. Personally my thought is as G.M Dubas has to figure out the identity of his team. Then he says exactly that however long ago all wrapped up in a bunch of mumbo jumbo about consistency etc.
The identity is for him to figure out by the players he provides. See where i am going with this!
His identity that he seems to have been struggling with is right there in front of him and he created it with the top 4 forwards taking up all the cap. Absolutely a skill and offense identity that he designed and aspires to maintain.
He should be asking himself and evaluating today, i mean right now which one he has to move because it’s not a winning formula for playoffs.
Marner? He makes to much to move.
Tavares? Captain and airtight contract and player with lots left.
Matthews? Franchise center,leader,best player and Mvp.
Nylander? Great year,great player and good guy. He is also the player that defines the identity of the team the most if moved or if not moved.
If Dubas maintains his intention to not trade Nylander then he should have no problem explaining that the teams identity is a skill team with deficiencies on defense due to lack of cap space to afford the types of players needed to play a more diverse combination of both elements of defense and offense.
So he can say we are a offensive team a bit weak defensively that believe we will out score teams to win and our forwards need to be much more responsible defensively to offset the environment i have created with our defense and my team building strategy.ha
He has to move off this just slightly by moving one of the top 4 i believe. It’s not a i was wrong move but a i want to try another way move because it hasn’t worked to win playoff rounds for us.
Nylander is the identity of the team this off season for me. Lets see if Dubas really is always changing in his approach and learning as he insists he is.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I agree I would also be moving out Leafs overpaid and under-productive 3rd line to recapture cap space, but more importantly swap out those non physical skating players and replace them with more hard working blue collar players at less cost and then use the cap space to improve the team around them. That is with the qualifier that you still want to stick with 1/2 cap on just 4 forwards. You could deal Marner/Nylander for cap space and/or highend Dman also and reallocate and move cap money but this seems to be against Dubas strategy.

I see this trade as Dubas couldn't trade Kapanen straight up for a top 4 Dman say Brett Pesce (level) that he liked and so he will attempt to do it in a 2 step trade..

1 ) Step 1: Trade Kapanen for picks and prospects and then
2) Step 2: Use those assets in addition to roster players and new cap space to build up and trade for that top 4 dman ie AJ + 1st + futures for top 4 dman say Colton Parayko.
3) If Step #2 is not available then continue to deal the middle away AJ/Kerfoot for futures and cap space and pursue UFA like Pietrangelo. (However there is no guarantees with UFAs).

In a cap world then high draft picks and cheap ELC contracts are vital to long-term sustainable success as your feeder system to surround your stars on big $$ cap contracts, so recapturing the lost pick via Marleau and basically moving back 2 spots from #13 to #15 is a move in the right direction for the future and I like. However when you consider the GM needs results in the present the motivation is more likely to mortgage the future for the present and we have seen Dubas is not afraid to deal high picks to fuel the current team.

I liked that post mess. Nice thinking and clearly explained. ( unlike most of my posts ha) It’s four years of not progressing by the first round so i hope there is determination by management that this needs work in strategy of team building.

 

[Mess]

He bet his job on the core, there should be no denial that he’s not far from the gallows pole if this season results in failure.

I like what he did with the Kapanen trade from an asset management standpoint, (we could get a solid player for the future with 15) but at present, the team isn’t better because of it or even addressed all the issues we’ve discussed. There is still a lot of work to go.

I posted some of Dubas PC comments above in the thread and highlighted key desperation words in red.

He used the words "probably dealing the pick for help right now". How the loss of Kappy weakens his current team off the roster, but the KEY was to " gain some flexibility or greater flexibility than what we have". "Certainly more moves are coming".

These are the words clearly of a GM that understands the pressure he is under to deliver, and the need for helping his current team in the present achieve that.

He seems to be wasting little time getting moving on improving, knowing the clock is ticking on him sticking, almost as if his job depended on it.

 

[Metroid]

Saved Mess' quote from another thread.


"Now watch he will take AJ/Kapanen (desperate once again for cap space) + Leafs 1st in 2021 and deal that for a top 4 Dman, that he desperately needs with Barrie and Ceci both leaving and a gap to fill on the Dcore particularly the right side.

So when the dust settles it will really be the cost of 2 X 1sts (this years and next years) + AJ/Kapanen invested for a top 4 dman is my prediction as to my expectations what is coming next. IMO ..

** Remember you heard it here first *** "


He Delt Kap and got a 15th overal plus a good prospect.
He may take that 15 and turn it into a D man. But so far it's not the 2021 picks. We still have that.

 

[Gallagbi]

I posted some of Dubas PC comments above in the thread and highlighted key desperation words in red.

He used the words "probably dealing the pick for help right now". How the loss of Kappy weakens his current team off the roster, but the KEY was to " gain some flexibility or greater flexibility than what we have". "Certainly more moves are coming".

These are the words clearly of a GM that understands the pressure he is under to deliver, and the need for helping his current team in the present achieve that.

He seems to be wasting little time getting moving on improving, knowing the clock is ticking on him sticking, almost as if his job depended on it.

Where's the "probably dealing" quote from? That's a lot different than the "open to moving it if the right deal came along for us"

 

[TheDoldrums]

I posted some of Dubas PC comments above in the thread and highlighted key desperation words in red.

He used the words "probably dealing the pick for help right now".

No he didn't.

This is what he said:

“I would say that we're open to keeping the pick, but I think with the spot that we're at with our team right now we're also open probably to moving it if the right deal came along for someone that could help us now"

I don't even understand how you could come up with your quote unless you're purposefully trying to lie.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

People are kidding themselves if they don’t think Dubas is in survivor mode. Another year out of the playoffs and he’s done that may not even matter if they don’t win a round when they get back in.

I was hoping it was regroup mode. I don’t think i would be comfortable thinking the G.M of my team is desperate. You can all have fun promoting that narrative. I’m thinking i will just watch and see how it comes together.

 

[Mess]

Saved Mess' quote from another thread.


"Now watch he will take AJ/Kapanen (desperate once again for cap space) + Leafs 1st in 2021 and deal that for a top 4 Dman, that he desperately needs with Barrie and Ceci both leaving and a gap to fill on the Dcore particularly the right side.

So when the dust settles it will really be the cost of 2 X 1sts (this years and next years) + AJ/Kapanen invested for a top 4 dman is my prediction as to my expectations what is coming next. IMO ..

** Remember you heard it here first *** "


He Delt Kap and got a 15th overal plus a good prospect.
He may take that 15 and turn it into a D man. But so far it's not the 2021 picks. We still have that.

What prize do I win if a future move now deals AJ/Kerfoot + 1st (2020 or 2021) for help for the current team, most likely a defensman?

Can't trade Kapanen as that part already happened as predicted, but he can trade the asset from that trade to end up at the same destination only taking the long road around.

Still early days.

 

[Metroid]

View attachment 364566

What prize do I win if a future move now deals AJ/Kerfoot + 1st (2020 or 2021) for help for the current team?

Can't trade Kapanen as that part already happened as predicted, but he can trade the asset from that trade to end up at the same destination only taking the long road around.

Still early days.

You said 2021 1st rounder with kap or aj.
Aj could be traded without using 2021 1st pick. We shall see.

 

[Bomber0104]

You said 2021 1st rounder with kap or aj.
Aj could be traded without using 2021 1st pick. We shall see.

For what though?

Kapanen was the clear-cut most valuable of the vanilla crew and he got a mid-1st.

Johnsson gets a 2nd or comparable roster player or prospect?

 

[moon111]

Or Ceci? When Dubas spoke of Ceci, he seemed to support him and talk of him rather positively.

I know it seems like a weird thought, but its a thought.

But why not? On a team struggling with defense, Ceci lead the team. Defensively-wise, he was simply the best. Physically? No. Offensively? Definitely not. With four offensive players and plenty of ice-time, we were going to see Ceci put into situations to look bad constantly. Personally if I were Ceci, wouldn't want to resign with the Leafs, as he's young enough to be looking at two more contracts in his career. The Leafs style of play, the position they put him in, will just bring him down. He needs to play on a team that chokes the life out of you.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I posted some of Dubas PC comments above in the thread and highlighted key desperation words in red.

He used the words "probably dealing the pick for help right now". How the loss of Kappy weakens his current team off the roster, but the KEY was to " gain some flexibility or greater flexibility than what we have". "Certainly more moves are coming".

These are the words clearly of a GM that understands the pressure he is under to deliver, and the need for helping his current team in the present achieve that.

He seems to be wasting little time getting moving on improving, knowing the clock is ticking on him sticking, almost as if his job depended on it.

Just to be clear. I see Zero desperation. Whats desperate about trading from a position of strength,adding a mid first round pick in a decent draft, obtaining a third line center potential prospect in Hallander,adding a veteran offensive defenseman for the Marlies and $3,200,000 cap space.
Robertson left a impression he can possible replace Kappy’ goals and energy on a entry level contract. I think neither Rutherford or Dubas are desperate. Restructuring is a pretty fluid thing for all teams with the special nuances of each rosters makeup.Pittsburgh has just a hair over $9 million cap space and we have a hair under $8 million cap space. Plus it’s the first moves of the off season and they got what they needed plus the jump on everyone. Looks smart to me,not desperate.

 

[Metroid]

For what though?

Kapanen was the clear-cut most valuable of the vanilla crew and he got a mid-1st.

Johnsson gets a 2nd or comparable roster player or prospect?

Does it matter? It could be for mcdavid and you'd find a way to be negative about it .

 

[Mess]

You said 2021 1st rounder with kap or aj.
Aj could be traded without using 2021 1st pick. We shall see.

At that time we had Kapanen and no 2020 1st round pick.. Now we have a 1st round pick and no Kapanen already traded. So I'm 1/2 right as Kappy in gone !!

When the dust settles and Kapanan and/or AJ and our 1st in 2020 or 2021 are no longer here when the season starts I'll be witnessing my self fulfilling prophecy coming true.

I'll allow you to remove a small deduction from my clairvoyant skills prediction, if I happen to get the year of the 1st round pick wrong.

PS. However seeing 2020 is a stronger draft year I'd prefer if it were the 2021 1st rounded that was dealt just between you and I.

 

[Big Muddy]

But why not? On a team struggling with defense, Ceci lead the team. Defensively-wise, he was simply the best. Physically? No. Offensively? Definitely not. With four offensive players and plenty of ice-time, we were going to see Ceci put into situations to look bad constantly. Personally if I were Ceci, wouldn't want to resign with the Leafs, as he's young enough to be looking at two more contracts in his career. The Leafs style of play, the position they put him in, will just bring him down. He needs to play on a team that chokes the life out of you.

What I've always found interesting is that defenders that play a pretty reasonable defensive game and that get a lot of tough minutes are often mercilessly criticized by fans.

Yet, almost every coach/GM seems to have one of these guys on their team and utilize them a lot, including using them in tough situations.

Maybe the coaches know a little more than fans?