Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

[Dekes For Days]

And in 2017 he starting showing why Anaheim choose to move him, by 2018 we knew he wasn’t the answer. They didn’t fix it and now they’re playing a fingers crossed game.

Anaheim chose to move him because they had Gibson, who they considered their goalie of the future, and Andersen was an RFA looking for a considerable contract. We didn't know he wasn't the answer by 2017 or 2018, and the only "fix" you've suggested is trading for someone that wasn't available. Most of the league is crossing their fingers that their goaltending plays well.

 

[Stephen]

Not just in a video game but a common sense move almost any GM would have made IMO.

Do you choose a journeyman goalie going into his late thirties or the guy who put up these numbers in the A the previous 3 seasons a shot:

14-4-3 .928
21-9-0 .922
31-9-2 .936 + Calder Cup

I think going a combined 66-22-5 with a save% close to .930 and a championship earns you a shot.

He got an extended 20-game tryout (going 8-9-1 with a .902) and didn't work out. He was a bit of a headcase and couldn't adjust to the NHL. These things happen. He earned his shot though. In hindsight, you make the other move of course but I don't think it made a huge difference in the long run anyways.

You hit the nail on the head when you said “common sense.” I agree that it was a common sense approach. I supported Sparks over McBackup. In the end it wasn’t even a big deal. But this is a good example of why we need more professional insight and not common sense at the goalie department. Give us the edge on decision making that not most fans would sleepwalk into.

 

[Gabriel426]

Sparks over McBackup was a logical asset management move that anyone would make in a video game but it missed the actual developmental/goalie department insight that could say "yeah this guy can play the way he does at the AHL level but it will get exposed at the NHL level."

We are arguing in hindsight.
Don’t get me wrong, I thought it was a bad decision at that time bc McBackup was really solid, but Sparks is younger and played really well in the AHL.
Just need to chalk down as another miscalculation by Dubas.

 

[Stephen]

It wasn’t even that logical, replace a known quantity as backup that had proved it, with an if that had no pedigree. Even if Sparks succeeded, he never became a starter, so he effectively tops out as McBackup best case, worst case, well we all saw it. Dubas fell in love with his AHL team and wanted to reward his guys, failing to see the potential pitfalls and also creating drama where none existed.

It makes sense in a general approach like you would choose Sandin over Holl, or likely keep Robertson over a Simmonds or something like that. But you need your goalie experts to be able to weigh in and just tell you Sparks has X, Y, Z issues and here are some alternative options.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It makes sense in a general approach like you would choose Sandin over Holl, or likely keep Robertson over a Simmonds or something like that. But you need your goalie experts to be able to weigh in and just tell you Sparks has X, Y, Z issues and here are some alternative options.

I'm not sure why you think any "goalie expert" would suggest anything other than what we did in that situation. Sparks had performed really well and earned his shot at backup. Goalie coaches don't just magically know the future, and just because you have a good goalie coach, it doesn't mean every goalie decision is going to turn out well.

 

[Zybalto]

You hit the nail on the head when you said “common sense.” I agree that it was a common sense approach. I supported Sparks over McBackup. In the end it wasn’t even a big deal. But this is a good example of why we need more professional insight and not common sense at the goalie department. Give us the edge on decision making that not most fans would sleepwalk into.

I think the Leafs were aware of the struggles Sparks had his first time up and thought he looked pretty "seasoned" to get a shot. It just happened to be his ceiling I guess.

Sometimes you can hit paydirt by accident here too. Binnington (similar numbers to Sparks in the A for a season) only got his shot because the Blues were a desperate last place club who were still struggling after a coaching change and Binnington then goes 24-5-1 (.927) to get them to the show and wins the cup in a miracle season....and then was never able to find the magic again even putting up Sparksesque numbers last season making 6 million till 2027.

I'm not gonna say "Voodoo" 'cause you dont like it but predicting goalies is tough....

 

[Nineteen67]

Anaheim chose to move him because they had Gibson, who they considered their goalie of the future, and Andersen was an RFA looking for a considerable contract. We didn't know he wasn't the answer by 2017 or 2018, and the only "fix" you've suggested is trading for someone that wasn't available. Most of the league is crossing their fingers that their goaltending plays well.

I knew.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I knew.

You didn't. You (supposedly) thought, based on insufficient information.

 

[Nineteen67]

You didn't. You (supposedly) thought, based on insufficient information.

I get that you don’t understand it, but don’t let it irk you.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I get that you don’t understand it, but don’t let it irk you.

I understand perfectly.

 

[Mess]

Yeah the position is critical enough that you want blue chip solutions instead of long bets every couple of years. Campbell was an extremely long reclamation bet that even paid off and even that wasn’t enough. I’m going to hold off on the regime change topic for now and hope we have a real solution between Murray and Samsonov. But man, these bets should be saved for positions like scoring wingers and second and third pairing defensemen where screw ups aren’t going to torpedo your season.

Sadly however we have already seen this experiment play out at the OHL and fail.

Soo Greyhound GM Dubas, hired Soo Greyhound Keefe to coach Matt Murray in the Soo, and when Murray struggled Dubas hired goalie coach Jon Elkin, who knew Matt Murray as a kid through his goalie schools to turn his game around. When all that failed in the Soo, Dubas went out and made a major trade for Jack Campbell to upgrade his goaltending.

Jack Campbell went on to become a 1st round pick in his draft class #11 overall and Matt Murray was a late 3rd rounder going #83rd overall. So scouts already determined higher potential at draft time.

Now flash forward to the present where ex-Soo GM Dubas in now Leafs GM, who hires ex-Soo coach Keefe to coach the Leafs and hires ex-Soo goalie coach Jon Elkin to become Leafs director of goalie development, The gang is all back together, as the Leafs are now run by the Soo Greyhounds old boys club. Only thing missing from the story is the goalies.

So Dubas first logically turns to ex-Soo Greyhound Jack Campbell (acquired in Feb 2020) and Ottawa acquires Matt Murray a few months later in Oct 2020, just like in junior picking J.C over M.M as an upgrade in net.

The Jack Campbell experiment failed at the NHL level to deliver, just like it did at the OHL level. So now in desperation Dubas takes on a salary contract dump of ex Soo Greyhound Matt Murray to replace ex-Soo Greyhound Jack Campbell, but notice the order is reversed. Jack Campbell was >> Matt Murray but now its expected Matt Murray is >> Jack Campbell.. However while Jack Campbell was playing in the All-Star game last year, Matt Murray was clearing NHL waivers and playing in the AHL, which tells us where both careers stand where Campbell is getting a big raise and others are picking up salary to dump Murray.

Leafs are taking on this experiment ONLY because Dubas, Keefe, and Elkin knew Murray in the Soo and now expected to turn Murray's career around again. "Except been there done that" and Leafs management team is going back to their OHL roots in desperation one last time !!! For a fortune 500 company like the Leafs that prides themself as a flag ship team of the NHL it all comes down to this and taking on so much risk, its kind of embarassing how this is all unfolding.

But 2 past Stanley Cup rings is the reason to attempt this reclamation !!!! .. Ask Ottawa how that turned out ...

Murray’s last of a few injury-marred seasons with the Penguins, in 2019-20, he’d put up an .899 save percentage and was deemed expendable. Which is to say: This move to Toronto isn’t Murray’s first experience as a reclamation project. After the Penguins gave up on him in 2020, the Senators were convinced enough that his two Stanley Cup rings made him a worthy investment. However 2 more injury plagues season later in Ottawa his combined SV% was .899 and 3.32 GAA, which makes his play over the course of past 3 years combined among the worst among all starters with only Martin Jones and Joonas Korpisalo performing worse statistically.

PS.. In all his years in the Soo Dubas won only 1 single playoff round, so that is a great formula to try and replicate at the NHL level.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Sadly however we have already seen this experiment play out at the OHL and fail.

What happened in a different league 11 years ago has zero relevance.

However while Jack Campbell was playing in the All-Star game last year, Matt Murray was clearing NHL waivers and playing in the AHL, which tells us where both career stand

Actually, while Campbell was playing in the All Star game, based on an early-season sample before he fell off a cliff, Murray was in the NHL performing quite well.

Leafs are taking on this experiment ONLY because Dubas, Keefe, and Elkin knew Murray in the Soo

That's not true at all.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I get that you don’t understand it, but don’t let it irk you.

If he doesn't understand, you don't. Haha

 

[Nineteen67]

If he doesn't understand, you don't. Haha

He didn’t even watch, so ….

 

[All Mod Cons]

He didn’t even watch, so ….

Oh I know. Take what Dekes says with a grain of salt.

 

[Stephen]

Sadly however we have already seen this experiment play out at the OHL and fail.

Soo Greyhound GM Dubas, hired Soo Greyhound Keefe to coach Matt Murray in the Soo, and when Murray struggled Dubas hired goalie coach Jon Elkin, who knew Matt Murray as a kid through his goalie schools to turn his game around. When all that failed in the Soo, Dubas went out and made a major trade for Jack Campbell to upgrade his goaltending.

Jack Campbell went on to become a 1st round pick in his draft class #11 overall and Matt Murray was a late 3rd rounder going #83rd overall. So scouts already determined higher potential at draft time.

Now flash forward to the present where ex-Soo GM Dubas in now Leafs GM, who hires ex-Soo coach Keefe to coach the Leafs and hires ex-Soo goalie coach Jon Elkin to become Leafs director of goalie development, The gang is all back together, as the Leafs are now run by the Soo Greyhounds old boys club. Only thing missing from the story is the goalies.

So Dubas first logically turns to ex-Soo Greyhound Jack Campbell (acquired in Feb 2020) and Ottawa acquires Matt Murray a few months later in Oct 2020, just like in junior picking J.C over M.M as an upgrade in net.

The Jack Campbell experiment failed at the NHL level to deliver, just like it did at the OHL level. So now in desperation Dubas takes on a salary contract dump of ex Soo Greyhound Matt Murray to replace ex-Soo Greyhound Jack Campbell, but notice the order is reversed. Jack Campbell was >> Matt Murray but now its expected Matt Murray is >> Jack Campbell.. However while Jack Campbell was playing in the All-Star game last year, Matt Murray was clearing NHL waivers and playing in the AHL, which tells us where both careers stand where Campbell is getting a big raise and others are picking up salary to dump Murray.

Leafs are taking on this experiment ONLY because Dubas, Keefe, and Elkin knew Murray in the Soo and now expected to turn Murray's career around again. "Except been there done that" and Leafs management team is going back to their OHL roots in desperation one last time !!! For a fortune 500 company like the Leafs that prides themself as a flag ship team of the NHL it all comes down to this and taking on so much risk, its kind of embarassing how this is all unfolding.

But 2 past Stanley Cup rings is the reason to attempt this reclamation !!!! .. Ask Ottawa how that turned out ...



PS.. In all his years in the Soo Dubas won only 1 single playoff round, so that is a great formula to try and replicate at the NHL level.

I can’t say I’m 100% in agreement with the heavy reliance on Soo players but Murray to Campbell could plausibly be explained due to Campbell being a 1992 birthday and Murray being a 1994 birthday. So at the time adding the veteran support would have made sense. Since then Murray has had a far more successful NHL career on the whole - though Campbell’s career is currently in better shape than Murray’s.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He didn’t even watch, so ….

Don't speak on things you have no knowledge of. I watched every minute of it.

 

[DueDiligence]

Most of the league is crossing their fingers that their goaltending plays well.

But most teams (unlike the Leafs) are not crossing their fingers that their injury prone goalie also stays healthy!

 

[Stephen]

I'm not sure why you think any "goalie expert" would suggest anything other than what we did in that situation. Sparks had performed really well and earned his shot at backup. Goalie coaches don't just magically know the future, and just because you have a good goalie coach, it doesn't mean every goalie decision is going to turn out well.

If I’m a GM I would want a goalie expert to give me insight on whether our top prospect in net might have some fundamental issues that might limit his effectiveness, beyond the “common sense” the wider public would assume is the right approach. That way I can make smart, informed decisions with better intel. Does that make sense? Here’s how it might work:

Goalie Department: “Hey Dubie. I working with Sparks, I’ve noticed these issues X, Y, Z. Let’s keep him over McBackup but he might not be ready. If any of A, B, C become available you want to bring them in as an option.”

Dubas: “I’ll keep that in mind. Thanks.”

OR.

Goalie Expert. “Hey Dubie, we notice Sparks has issues reading scramble plays and his lateral mobility is lacking power. We are thinking about working on altering his stance so he can stay upright a little longer and have more to push off, but we also think we need a tweak on the zone coverage to suppress certain backdoor plays.”

Dubas: “I’m cc’ing Sheldon. Keep us posted.”

 

[Dekes For Days]

But most teams( unlike the Leafs) are not crossing their fingers that their injury prone goalie also stays healthy!

I'd say most of the league is crossing their fingers that their goalie stays healthy as well.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If I’m a GM I would want a goalie expert to give me insight on whether our top prospect in net might have some fundamental issues that might limit his effectiveness, beyond the “common sense” the wider public would assume is the right approach. That way I can make smart, informed decisions with better intel. Does that make sense?

You obviously want the best insight you can get, but there's nothing to really suggest that giving Sparks a chance there was because of bad insight. You don't know what discussions took place, and goalie coaches aren't there to be magical beings that know the future. Every goalie has strengths and weaknesses, and players adapt to the NHL differently. There was no justifiable reason to throw him away before giving him a chance.

 

[BigBlu]

Sorry, I must have missed it. Can someone tell me why the non-hockey (ie. Jays and Raptors) threads got locked?Thanks.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Another thread I'm just scrolling through not reading because of one poster. Too bad, I was interested in the subject and people's thoughts.

 

[ACC1224]

Sorry, I must have missed it. Can someone tell me why the non-hockey (ie. Jays and Raptors) threads got locked?Thanks.

There are links to the threads inside the locked thread although the Jays thread is usually near the top anyway.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Sadly however we have already seen this experiment play out at the OHL and fail.

Soo Greyhound GM Dubas, hired Soo Greyhound Keefe to coach Matt Murray in the Soo, and when Murray struggled Dubas hired goalie coach Jon Elkin, who knew Matt Murray as a kid through his goalie schools to turn his game around. When all that failed in the Soo, Dubas went out and made a major trade for Jack Campbell to upgrade his goaltending.

Jack Campbell went on to become a 1st round pick in his draft class #11 overall and Matt Murray was a late 3rd rounder going #83rd overall. So scouts already determined higher potential at draft time.

Now flash forward to the present where ex-Soo GM Dubas in now Leafs GM, who hires ex-Soo coach Keefe to coach the Leafs and hires ex-Soo goalie coach Jon Elkin to become Leafs director of goalie development, The gang is all back together, as the Leafs are now run by the Soo Greyhounds old boys club. Only thing missing from the story is the goalies.

So Dubas first logically turns to ex-Soo Greyhound Jack Campbell (acquired in Feb 2020) and Ottawa acquires Matt Murray a few months later in Oct 2020, just like in junior picking J.C over M.M as an upgrade in net.

The Jack Campbell experiment failed at the NHL level to deliver, just like it did at the OHL level. So now in desperation Dubas takes on a salary contract dump of ex Soo Greyhound Matt Murray to replace ex-Soo Greyhound Jack Campbell, but notice the order is reversed. Jack Campbell was >> Matt Murray but now its expected Matt Murray is >> Jack Campbell.. However while Jack Campbell was playing in the All-Star game last year, Matt Murray was clearing NHL waivers and playing in the AHL, which tells us where both careers stand where Campbell is getting a big raise and others are picking up salary to dump Murray.

Leafs are taking on this experiment ONLY because Dubas, Keefe, and Elkin knew Murray in the Soo and now expected to turn Murray's career around again. "Except been there done that" and Leafs management team is going back to their OHL roots in desperation one last time !!! For a fortune 500 company like the Leafs that prides themself as a flag ship team of the NHL it all comes down to this and taking on so much risk, its kind of embarassing how this is all unfolding.

But 2 past Stanley Cup rings is the reason to attempt this reclamation !!!! .. Ask Ottawa how that turned out ...



PS.. In all his years in the Soo Dubas won only 1 single playoff round, so that is a great formula to try and replicate at the NHL level.

When did Dubas aquire a two time Stanley Cup winner for the Soo? That would be an impossibly. LoL we haven't seen this before. Incidentally, both Campbell and Murray did play for Dubas in the Soo. At least you got that right.
Ottawa says it turned out poorly. Murray got injured and they started a rebuild. Than the Leafs gave up nothing to get Murray.

Another thread I'm just scrolling through not reading because of one poster. Too bad, I was interested in the subject and people's thoughts.

You can still read and reply to people's thoughts. Just ignore the poster that you disagree with. They can still read and reply to you, but you won't see it.